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Thread: Attic framing

  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Attic framing

    Admittedly roof framing is not my strongest point. However, this appeared to be the work of an amateur. Are hangers required at these connections and check out the king post. Single family home built in 07.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    I don't even know where to start. It's all wrong, bad, poor, crappy, take your pick. Clearly some DIY, jive contractor type job.
    I would write it up as substandard work. With notes that under normal conditions it may be fine for long enough. However under heavy snow load, house movement, ground activity or any other adverse conditions the structure may over-react in a negative way, i.e. start to separate, pull apart, slide downward, etc.
    Is that cathedral ceiling framing at that angled OSB that the roof posts/rafters are sitting on? Whatever it is I doubt it is properly structured to handle any roof load. Don't you guys need insulation in Utah?
    I have a Roof cutters book around here I used to use when doing additions. On stuff like this I find it and copy an appropriate framing page and add it to the report as a pdf or diagram.
    I'd suggest getting a roof framing book. Works great. Picture of crap, pdf or insert diagram of what it is supposed to look like.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  3. #3
    David McMullen's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Attic framing

    What are your suggestions for a roof framing book for reference. I am still fairly new to this profession and trying to build a library of reference material.

    David


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by David McMullen View Post
    What are your suggestions for a roof framing book for reference. I am still fairly new to this profession and trying to build a library of reference material.

    David
    IMO the best roof framing book comes from experience


  5. #5
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    David,
    After you see about 500 or a 1000 attics, you see something like this and you will start to laugh first then cry cuz it's just extra work for you Ask H.G. He seems to have a really good library. Also, what I like to do is go on a few builds or take a contractor, if you know any, on an inspection with you and pay them. Write it off as an education expense. Also a case or two of beer can get you far.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    If you are going to write it as wrong, you have to know what's right. I don't know from those pictures that it's wrong. I know that it's sloppy and unprofessional. But there's no law against ugly. Framing is purely mathematics. Loads bear to points that bear to points that bear to points on and on to the ground. If the loads are right and he got there in an obtuse manner, so what. I don't see that you provided enough information for anyone to make a judgment.

    JLMathis


  7. #7
    gene schafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Where did they get the rough framing inspector that passed this? I am amazed at what the city inspectors pick on contractors and then let something like this pass.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey L. Mathis View Post
    If you are going to write it as wrong, you have to know what's right. I don't know from those pictures that it's wrong. I know that it's sloppy and unprofessional. But there's no law against ugly. Framing is purely mathematics. Loads bear to points that bear to points that bear to points on and on to the ground. If the loads are right and he got there in an obtuse manner, so what. I don't see that you provided enough information for anyone to make a judgment.

    JLMathis
    Great point. I see ugly and hacked but I cant see the violations.


  9. #9
    Steven Stafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    I would agree more with the comment posted by Markus than that from Jeff M and Rod B. When You see this level of sloppy workmanship you need to write it up. It should not take long to find at least one obvious defect to point out in writing and with a photo even for an inspector without much framing experience.
    For example, photo 2,3,and 4 from the original post seem to show the same framing element. It appears that the load from the ridge may not be continuously picked up to a proper bearing point. It looks like the bottom is fastened to a 2x on top of OSB sheathing. Chances are that if you can get your head in there to see under that piece of OSB there wont be blocking down to a bearing wall. A well placed photo and a comment you can defend add a lot of weight to the term "substandard workmanship" and your recommendation to seek further evaluation. When you sloppy workmanship take your time and use your head, you will find something to back up your opinion.

    For David Mc - a good reference book on framing is:
    Graphic Guide to Frame Construction, Taunton Press $25.95
    use caution when adding copyrighted material to your reports


  10. #10

    Default Re: Attic framing

    I would report: Several framing members in the attic appear to be insufficient, I recommend having an applicable contractor evluate and repair as needed.


  11. #11
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    I don't know from those pictures that it's wrong.
    Rafters must have full bearing on the ridge, that one item is enough to have a HI call for further evaluation by someone else SE, builder, framing contractor.......


    Quote Originally Posted by David McMullen View Post
    What are your suggestions for a roof framing book for reference. I am still fairly new to this profession and trying to build a library of reference material.
    David, the IRC has some good basic illustrations in it along with a lot of minimum requirements .

    This is a pdf posted by someone here that I have found very useful.

    Attached Files Attached Files

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    A few books to consider:
    - Building Construction Illustrated, Francis DK Ching, Wiley publishing,
    Numerous editions available, I have the 3rd edition, lots of good, big illustrations that copy/pdf well
    - Construction Codes & Inspection Handbook, Gli Taylor, McGraw Hill,
    decent smaller diagrams, lots of ASTM/Code references that you can use, span tables, etc, a very good starting point to get going and move on to more detailed specs
    - A roof cutter's secrets, Will Holladay, Hanley Wood publishing,
    one of my favorites as a contractor, very helpful and insightful, not sure if this is still available, good book to have for looking up the right way, diagrams are smaller but very good
    Hope that helps

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  13. #13
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Attic framing

    thx markus


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Unorthodox, Random connections, Below industry standard workmanship, Uncommon design and installation methods

    Those are a few terms I may throw at it.....


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Sometimes pictures are hard to get a good perspective of something. A code violation I see is the ridge needs to be one size larger the the rafters. When rafters are cut on the roof pitch the angle cut makes the bearing of the rafter longer the it's nominal width.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Door Guy

    Perhaps it's a matter of perspective but which picture(s) are you referencing for your ridge sizing requirement? Not disagreeing but couldn't identify that deficiency.

    Sloppy work for sure but unfortunately all too common.

    ip


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    I'll answer for Door. Pics 3 and 4, a darker rafter coming up on the left. Ridge looks like a 2X4.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I'll answer for Door. Pics 3 and 4, a darker rafter coming up on the left. Ridge looks like a 2X4.
    Thanks John for answering You found it, but looks to me that the ridge is 2x6 and rafter is 2x8. Not that it matters, size is still not correct.
    Again pictures sometimes are tough to get the correct perspective...

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    OK, on third look I do see some rafters attached to an undersized ridge. I apologize.

    JLMathis


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffrey L. Mathis View Post
    OK, on third look I do see some rafters attached to an undersized ridge. I apologize.

    JLMathis
    No need to apologize... that's why we are here helping each other right? I also agree with your earlier statement of just because it's ugly that doesn't make it wrong. Remember, beauty is in the eye of the be-holder

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Thanks Guys - got it! Zooming in helped...

    ip


  22. #22
    Richard Doty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    As an ex-framing contractor for 30 yrs, framing homes from 6,000 - 15,000 sq ft --- I can tell you that the rafters are fine, they never need hangers at the ridge. The one photo I saw of the ridge shows it to be undersized. Ridge must be full depth of the pitch cut. The rafter bracing is ok, even if it is actually "t'd" incorrectly. The bracing must go down on top of a wall or adequate size bm to carry the particular live load of your area. Since you didn't say what was underneath the osb or plywood, it's difficult to say.


  23. #23
    gene schafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    That is what is the real problem what is underneath the osb?


  24. #24
    Richard Doty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by gene schafer View Post
    That is what is the real problem what is underneath the osb?
    Yes, as well as the ridge. The full cut on the rafters has to touching the ridge, hips, valleys, fly-hips, climbers, and any where else the top or btm of the rafters are touching. In the rafters that we call "zippers" that go from hip to valley, you have both pitch cuts bearing on a hip at the top and a valley on the bottom.

    SMILE, GOD LOVES YOU !!


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Doty View Post
    SMILE, GOD LOVES YOU !!
    So does Buddha, Mohammad, along with all leaders of the major religions, the following are just the 12 major religions:
    •Baha'i
    •Buddhism
    •Christianity
    •Confucianism
    •Hinduism
    •Islam
    •Jainism
    •Judaism
    •Shinto
    •Sikhism
    •Taoism
    •Zoroastrianism

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  26. #26
    Richard Doty's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attic framing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    So does Buddha, Mohammad, along with all leaders of the major religions, the following are just the 12 major religions:
    •Baha'i
    •Buddhism
    •Christianity
    •Confucianism
    •Hinduism
    •Islam
    •Jainism
    •Judaism
    •Shinto
    •Sikhism
    •Taoism
    •Zoroastrianism
    Well, I was talking about the only God I know, but if you need to, then
    pick another one.


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