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Thread: garage ceiling

  1. #1
    Tony Vargas's Avatar
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    Default garage ceiling

    hey in like older homes where garage ceiling is say wood panels do
    these get written up the same meaning must be firerated material
    and the wall should continue all the way up that seperates the living space
    were they firerated in the 40 50s i wanna know how you guys write this up see pic

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  2. #2
    Darryl Saam's Avatar
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    Talking Re: garage ceiling

    Hey, I always recommend that any wall or ceiling that separates a garage from a living space needs to be finished with a material that gasses can not permeate from the garage to the living space. Here in Canada that would be drywall double taped. Sealing all holes, no vents or passages that connect the two spaces. That then gives you the 30+ min fire rating.


  3. #3
    Tony Vargas's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Thanks Darrayl i appreciate your feedback


  4. #4
    gene schafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    I just inspected one like this and in my report I made it clear this was a safety issue. You must have a fire rated material between attached garages and living spaces. It needs to be a one hour fire rating for residential. 5/8 gypsum board is the best fire rated material and after it is installed it must be fire taped. All other penetrations for pipes or electrical must be fire caulked.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by gene schafer View Post
    It needs to be a one hour fire rating for residential.
    What code requires that?

    The IRC and codes based on the IRC only require (unless that specific section is changed) only requires 1/2" gypsum board on the walls, and only requires 5/8" Type X on the ceiling, but NOTHING is said about a 1 hour fire rating as a one hour fire rating requires more than just installing 5/8" type x gypsum board.

    5/8 gypsum board is the best fire rated material and after it is installed it must be fire taped.
    It has to be fire taped? What code requires that?

    I must have missed something along the line (and I *DO* miss things along the line).

    All other penetrations for pipes or electrical must be fire caulked.
    Now that has a ring of truth to it as the requirement is that the annular space around the penetration must be filled with "an approved material" "to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion".

    Notice, though that there is a difference between:
    - a) "an approved material" "to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion"
    and
    - b) "a material approved to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion".

    In a) the material only needs to be "approved material" and that the "approved material" is there to resist the free passage of flame and products of combustion, which is not necessarily stating that the material must be fire-rated caulking.

    In b), though, *IF* the wording in b) was used (and it IS NOT), but if that wording was used, then the material would be required to be "a material approved to resist" the free passage of flame, etc.

    There is a BIG difference in that wording. Is "fire caulking" a requirement? Not as worded. The difference is that the *SEPARATION* *IS NOT* the same as a "fire-resistance rated assembly" ... *SEPARATION* is a fuzzy cousin to a "partial" fire-resistance rated assembly, think of "separation" as being the red-haired step-child which no one claims as it is so much different from "the real thing".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    gene schafer's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    5/8 X is rated for a one hour. 1/2 X for 45 minutes. Now unless things have changed a 1 hour rating is what is needed from a attached garage and living space. This goes for walls and ceiling. That is what is required in Colorado when I was building. The 5/8 rock that we use to put under stairways has changed to regular 1/2 rock. The man doors from a garage to living space must be 20 minute doors. I would always feel much safer knowing that who ever I sold a house to had this kind of protection. I can't believe that in other states they have dropped this requirement for the cost of 1/2 vs 5/8. When I build the next house soon it will have the one hour rating as always. Anything else is a fire trap. There is no reg. that I know by using 5/8 X of a fill above it for protection other than fire tape and fire caulk for penetrations. I have never been turned down by the building department for following the guidelines.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by gene schafer View Post
    5/8 X is rated for a one hour.
    It is?

    This is from the Gypsum Association publication Fire Resistance Membrane Protection GA-610:

    What fire-resistance rating does this provide? (bold and underlining are mine).
    - The ceiling membrane consists of two layers of 5/8 (15.9 mm) type X gypsum board directly applied to framing or furring. The base layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to ceiling framing 24 (610 mm) o.c. and attached with 1 (25 mm) Type S or S-12 drywall screws (for steel framing) or 1-1/4 (32 mm) Type W or S drywall screws (for wood framing) spaced 24 (610 mm) o.c. The face layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to the framing and attached with 1-5/8 (41 mm) Type S or S-12 drywall screws (for steel framing) or 1-7/8 (48 mm) Type W or S drywall screws (for wood framing) 12 (305 mm) o.c. at end joints and intermediate joists and 1-1/2 (38 mm) Type G drywall screws 12 (305 mm) o.c. placed 2 (50 mm) back on either side of end joints. Joints of the face layer are offset 24 (610 mm) from the joints in the base layer. Face layer joints and fasteners are finished to Level 1 as specified in GA-214,
    Levels of Gypsum Board Finish.


    According to what you stated, that would be a TWO-HOUR rating ...

    This is the actual heading for that section:
    - One-Hour Ceiling
    - (Based on GA File Nos. FC 5406 and RC 2601)

    This is the next section:
    - The ceiling membrane consists of four layers of 5/8 (15.9 mm) type X gypsum board applied to ceiling framing spaced 24 (610 mm) o.c. with a 7/8 (22 mm) hat-shaped steel furring channel located between the third and face layer. The base layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to the ceiling framing and attached with 1-1/4 (32 mm) type S or W drywall screws spaced 12 (305 mm) o.c. The second layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to the ceiling framing and attached with 2 (51 mm) type S or W drywall screws spaced 12 (305 mm) o.c. The third layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to ceiling framing and attached with 2-1/2 (64 mm) type S or W drywall screws spaced 12 (305 mm) o.c. The joints in each layer are offset a minimum of 10 (250 mm) from the previous layer. The steel hat-shaped rigid furring channels are applied at right angles to the ceiling framing and spaced 24 (610 mm) o.c. The channels are attached to the ceiling framing at each framing member/furring channel intersection with two 2-1/2 (64 mm) Type S or W drywall screws. The face layer of gypsum board is applied at right angles to the furring channels and attached with 1-1/8 (28 mm) type S drywall screws spaced 12 (305 mm) o.c. Face layer joints and fasteners are finished to Level 1 as specified in GA-214,
    Levels of Gypsum Board Finish.


    Oh, this is the heading for the above section:
    Two-Hour Ceiling
    (Based on UL Design L556)

    So ... ONE LAYER of 5/8" Type X gives what fire-resistance rating?

    Now unless things have changed a 1 hour rating is what is needed from a attached garage and living space. This goes for walls and ceiling. That is what is required in Colorado when I was building.
    That's what I'm asking for: the code section which required that. It may well have been read correctly, or it may well have been read incorrectly and that was not really what was required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
    hey in like older homes where garage ceiling is say wood panels do
    these get written up the same meaning must be firerated material
    and the wall should continue all the way up that seperates the living space
    were they firerated in the 40 50s i wanna know how you guys write this up see pic
    To properly reply to this question, one needs to know what is located above this garage ceiling, a roof/attic or is there a habitable room above?
    The OP does mention the separation wall continuing all the way up. My assumption would be that he is referring the IRC requirement that the attached garage have 1/2" gypsum board on the wall adjacent to the house (habitable space) and that wall continue all the way up (to the roof of the garage) to complete this separation. As an alternative to going all the way up, the ceiling of the garage can be covered with 1/2" gypsum board. (or rock for folks in some parts of the country!)
    Now if the garage is under a habitable room the 5/8" type X gypsum board is then required for the garage ceiling. Additionally, when you have have a habitable room above the garage and, "the separation is a floor ceiling assembly, the structure supporting the assembly shall also be protected by not less than 1/2" gypsum board or equivalent." So, you also need to look at the exterior walls where the floor above bear on.
    Again, these posts need to have clear descriptions of conditions if you expect to receive a beneficial response to your situation.
    As a somewhat related question regarding garage floors, IRC section R309.3, I vaguely remember years ago that attached garages had to have a definite step up from the driving surface to the house, not just a slope to a drain or towards the garage entrance door. Does anyone recall this and if so, roughly when that change in thinking was made?
    Thanks

    Gary Bottomley
    Cadillac, Michigan

  9. #9
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    In NC the house has to meet the requirements of the code the house was built under....not the current code. Do you take that into consideration when writing your report? Just curious as to how other folks handle this.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    In NC the house has to meet the requirements of the code the house was built under....not the current code. Do you take that into consideration when writing your report? Just curious as to how other folks handle this.
    When you say the house "has to" meet the requirements of the code it was built under, does that mean it has to be upgraded to that code in order to be sold? or do you just comment that it doesn't? If that is the case, how can an inspector possibly know exactly when the house was built, or remodeled or added on to, let alone what the code requirement was at that point in time?
    I look at the house and comment on current code requirements, particularly regarding safety aspects and make the buyer away of what current code and/or safety thoughts are so that they can make an informed decision on the purchase and the comparison to other homes that they may be considering.

    Gary Bottomley
    Cadillac, Michigan

  11. #11
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    California Residential Code 2010. Fire protection/ house with attached garage/ etc.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Why does every question on this board quickly fall into replies full of massive citations to NEW HOUSE code?

    The OP is asking about a house built in the 40s or 50s. What does the new code have to do with that?

    The best answer to the actual question is to educate the buyer as to the concept of fire separation and the reasons it's important. And, suggest/recommended/scream/yell or otherwise convey that you think it's important.

    Copying/pasting massive amounts of fineprint is unlikely to accomplish any of that.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: garage ceiling

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Why does every question on this board quickly fall into replies full of massive citations to NEW HOUSE code?
    Matt,

    Go back and re-read the question ... THAT was the question.

    "hey in like older homes where garage ceiling is say wood panels do
    these get written up the same meaning
    must be firerated material
    and the wall should continue all the way up that seperates the living space were they firerated in the 40 50s i wanna know how you guys write this up "

    The OP is asking about a house built in the 40s or 50s. What does the new code have to do with that?
    Matt, think SAFETY, that is why.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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