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  1. #1
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  2. #2
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I don't ask for it but if it is available I will look it over. I don;t think it is appropriate to ask for it out of the blue. imo


  3. #3
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I'll ask my clients if they have any concerns over anything that was disclosed or anything they saw as they were looking at the house. If there is a disclosure laying around, I'll look at it, but I don't ask to see it.

    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
    Minnesota Home Inspectors LLC
    ASHI #242887 mnradontesting.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I don't ask for it but if it is available I will look it over. I don;t think it is appropriate to ask for it out of the blue. imo
    I don't what could be considered inappropriate about asking if a disclosure statement is available. While I rarely find anything worthwhile in them, I feel it is within our right as an inspector to knowing if anything of significance has been disclosed considering we are the ones who are going to spend 3+ hours digging around the house. If there is something within the disclosure that could have an impact on or effect on me during my time there, I want to know.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  5. #5
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Since the disclosure is part of the contract between the buyer and the seller it is really none of my business unless they want it to be. Kinda like what they are paying for the house. I'm there to do an inspection....not be part of the deal. Of course this is JMO...


  6. #6
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by L. Travis Curtis View Post
    Is it appropriate to ask for disclosure statement before doing inspection?
    Welcome Travis...

    Why not ask for it? It is a document that is suppose to be made available to anyone and everyone who looks at the home. Keep in mind that for the most, they are about as useless as teats on a boar hog!

    I do not ask for a copy of the disclosure but it is often offered by one of the agents. I'll look at it, sometimes you can gleam some useful information off of them. The age of the roof or the age of the home is often useful. Most of the time the owners do not have a clue or just put down "unknown" if they do not want to mess with it.

    I see nothing wrong in asking for a copy of the disclosure, just don't rely on the information on it to be the gospel.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Welcome Travis...

    Why not ask for it? It is a document that is suppose to be made available to anyone and everyone who looks at the home. Keep in mind that for the most, they are about as useless as teats on a boar hog!

    I do not ask for a copy of the disclosure but it is often offered by one of the agents. I'll look at it, sometimes you can gleam some useful information off of them. The age of the roof or the age of the home is often useful. Most of the time the owners do not have a clue or just put down "unknown" if they do not want to mess with it.

    I see nothing wrong in asking for a copy of the disclosure, just don't rely on the information on it to be the gospel.
    Ditto

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  8. #8
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I see nothing wrong with asking for the statement. However I find them to be kinda useless.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  9. #9
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Like (some) others I see nothing wrong or clandestine about reviewing any report - including Pest Inspection - that are relevant to the condition of the property. They might even answer questions if some anomaly is observed during the inspection. I also ask the client if they have any specific concerns before I start the inspection, which are often as a result of a Pest Inspection report. Just trying to be as thorough and helpful as possible.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Realtor disclosure statement

    I ask the clients if they have seen the sellers disclosure statement and if there was anything significant on it. I am most concerned with the moisture intrusion section. I agree with Eric that they are mostly useless but I have found things on them that were very useful that I would not have known without it, some people are honest. I don't care where information comes from, if it helps me do a better job for my client I am all for it. For instance, I was inspecting a house not too long ago that was a 90 day flip and had no disclosures and was listed "as is". The neighbor boys were out and started asking me what I was doing, I started talking with them and found out the house had burned to the ground 5 years earlier. Use it all.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  11. #11
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    At one inspection, the buyer handed me the disclosure statement at the end of the inspection. The statement has a question asking if the house has a sump pump. The sellers checked off YES. The next question was if the sump pump ever turns on. The sellers checked off YES.

    The house had no sump pump or sump pit. Even though my report would have stated there is no sump pit or pump, this detail would have likely flown under my client's radar.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  12. #12
    William Brady's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I don't usually ask. On the other hand I see no reason not to. Anytime you can look at a document that helps you make better comments or recommendations to a clinet is a good thing.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Hi (ALL) &

    Don't see that as being 'inappropriate', at all and so guess it must be 'appropriate', by default...

    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

  14. #14
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    any good imfo from any source is always a good thing as it may lead you to where you might find more things to write up. as said before don't believe everything you read or hear. a disclosure is just something they have written up to cover their butt's. Your there to find stuff that they might have or don't know about. So don't be scared to ask and look thru it. looking thru it might help you and your there to help someone else. it all for the greater good that you want to see it. and that is what counts. IMO. )


  15. #15
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Just like anything else you need to frame your questions to your clients. I usually say "did you see anything in the disclosure statement that concerns you? After a long explanation they usually have the realtor forward it to me. I have found them useful, especially when they say they have made the repair, I double check those because most have been DIY. Get them if you can, That's what I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by L. Travis Curtis View Post
    Is it appropriate to ask for disclosure statement before doing inspection?



  16. #16
    Thomas Jones's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Try checking the realty's web site first. Some local companies post them with their listings under details.........At least around here.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I send an email to the buyer's agent requesting access for inspections at a specific date/time and ask them to forward the listing and disclosure. 100% comply with no hassle.

    Both documents can provide useful information and they also help me mentally prepare to inspect the home. It's nice to know in advance what to expect.

    "the relentless pursuit of perfection"

  18. #18
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Don't ask don't read. I think it increases your liability.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by L. Travis Curtis View Post
    Is it appropriate to ask for disclosure statement before doing inspection?

    I ask for and receive the seller's disclosure on just about every home inspection I perform, assuming one is available. No Realtor has ever questioned me in nearly 10 years for asking for it. Of course, for seller inspections and repo's there are no disclosures.


  20. #20
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    All I need to do an inspection is an address and a way to get in the property. I book 80% of my inspections by email with no idea who the buyer is or anything else except what I can get from tax records. I charge the same price for 95% of all of my inspections so Realtors (bad word...need to wash my mouth out with soap) know what my price is 95% of the time without asking. Why would I need to mess with paper work that is pretty much useless for what I am there for plus it is really none of my business what the seller told the buyer. imho


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Realtor disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Don't ask don't read. I think it increases your liability.
    Mat,

    "I think it increases your liability."

    Would you explain why you think that?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Gilles Larin's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    In my neck of the woods, a seller's disclosure is not legally required, meaning that they (sellers) can remain silent! So I routinely interview the sellers and ask them the usual pertinent questions!


  23. #23
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    The more information the inspector has the more thorough he or she can be, if they so choose. The more knowledge and experience an inspector accumulates the less they worry about liability. There is some sort of theory that all home inspectors are high-wire walkers and the more they report on the higher the wire gets. Frankly I firmly believe that garnering the proper amount of skill and knowledge coupled with real world experience the less the professional inspector is concerned with liability. That's why the pros have E&O insurance and sleep well at night.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  24. #24
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Sure. Disclosures stated there was an ice dam in 08. Leakage from Ice dam occured in the North living room. I looked did not see any mold or evidence of micorbial growth or damage. Well there was damage and mold all over the place in the wall and sub floor. Could not see the sub floor from the crawl space, joist cavities were filled with blown in insulation. Buyer and his lawyer decided it was my fault because I was not thorough enough even after I read the disclosures, and they asked I pay special attention to this area. Oh and the wood floor was warped (in the kitchen of course), although the persian rug concealed that, guess I was supposed to look under there. So in the end it cost me a 750 dollar refund of the inspection and a 1000 bucks to avoid court, and some serious ass kissing. So in my experience, it increases liability.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Sure. Disclosures stated there was an ice dam in 08. Leakage from Ice dam occured in the North living room. I looked did not see any mold or evidence of micorbial growth or damage. Well there was damage and mold all over the place in the wall and sub floor. Could not see the sub floor from the crawl space, joist cavities were filled with blown in insulation. Buyer and his lawyer decided it was my fault because I was not thorough enough even after I read the disclosures, and they asked I pay special attention to this area. Oh and the wood floor was warped (in the kitchen of course), although the persian rug concealed that, guess I was supposed to look under there. So in the end it cost me a 750 dollar refund of the inspection and a 1000 bucks to avoid court, and some serious ass kissing. So in my experience, it increases liability.
    So, they were going to sue you because you read the seller's disclosure and didn't find the hidden damage? That doesn't make much sense simply linking the two together. If the client pointed this area out as a concern, I would have done my best to inspect that area, stated what I could and couldn't see (document this in the report), take photos showing the condition of the area at that time (showing insulation, rugs, etc. blocking access) and moved on.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Matthew, inregards to the above post if someone asks for special attention that is beyond your abilities then make a note that it requires further investigation beyond a normal home inspection. if you can not access the noted area's STAND UP for yourself in court!! they buffed you and won big. we do not look inside wall and throu insulation take pic's and be ready to defend yourself as it was a place that needed further investigation. Ask yourself were they willing to pay you to open every wall and floor to see what was there? then pay for the repairs to the owner for destructive investigation?? they wanted you to pay further investigation that was a big clue that if you didn' find anything that it was going to be a sticky point with them. Address these concerns properly and say requires further investigation beyond a normal home inspection. leave the door open that it might not be ok, but what you can see and do to investigate has not shown any problems due to limited access.


  27. #27
    Eric Shuman's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    First let me state that about 90% of the disclosure statements I've seen are worthless or the sellers have flat out lied. I can usually walk around the house just looking casually and see many items that anyone could see that should be disclosed but were no t included in the disclosure statement (including once when the sellers were living there with a leak under a sink with a pan under it to catch the water and water in the pan and obvious damage to the floor). I personnaly don't see any harm in looking at the statement as long as you thoroughly inspect any areas/items listed in the statement.

    As far as Matt's post above, there may be details that we do not know so it's hard to say what I would have done in his situation. The SOP in TX is pretty clear about limitations on hidden areas, though I know in court that may not count for much.


  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Sure. Disclosures stated there was an ice dam in 08. Leakage from Ice dam occured in the North living room. I looked did not see any mold or evidence of micorbial growth or damage. Well there was damage and mold all over the place in the wall and sub floor. Could not see the sub floor from the crawl space, joist cavities were filled with blown in insulation. Buyer and his lawyer decided it was my fault because I was not thorough enough even after I read the disclosures, and they asked I pay special attention to this area. Oh and the wood floor was warped (in the kitchen of course), although the persian rug concealed that, guess I was supposed to look under there. So in the end it cost me a 750 dollar refund of the inspection and a 1000 bucks to avoid court, and some serious ass kissing. So in my experience, it increases liability.
    Just saying

    At 700 for an inspection fee, I would say that I would have lifted the area rug .......... in a kitchen with wood floors. Probably no where else but yes in the kitchen. I am not a furniture mover so other area rugs would not have been moved. I lift rugs in a kitchen with wood floors in every home. The rest at the post I agree with. If 700 is your average fee ..... I will move up next week.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 08-17-2011 at 07:01 PM.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I too ask for the Sellers Disclosure. I'm hoping to get some honest useful information (some) that can help me identify areas before I get there. As has been said, it;s usually useless but I generally find one thing that helps. Hadn't thought about legal issues before. If it's out there I want it. Appreciate everyone's comments.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I take a look at the vendor property information (VPIS) statement if available. If I am going to be held to a standard of care I want to see what the vendor is disclosing and take my ques from the statement thusly.

    Superior Court of Justice Ontario 2003.

    However, if the purchaser chooses to not rely on the vendor and requests inspections, including professional inspectors (i.e. Home Inspection Service) then reliance for completion of the deal (the waver in this case) is shifted to the inspector whom the purchaser has chosen. The purchaser has relied on the inspection report not the vendor's silence, to formulate his decision whether or not to complete the deal...
    Of course, as stated, if the vendor made representations to the purchaser or the purchaser's inspection that were fraudulent, then the responsibility for disclosing the latent defect would remain with the vendor...
    • [63] Absent fraudulent representations or concealment, when a professional home inspector's report is obtained then reliance has shifted to the home inspector.
    • [64] In this case, the purchasers obtained a home inspection report before waiving the condition. The report noted evidence of possible water problems and indicated that the type of repairs which have been effected and for which damages are claimed might be required.
    • [65] In view of obtaining an inspection report which indicates possible water problems any reliance the purchasers had made on the vendors statements on the VPIS (Vendor Property Information Statement) document would have been transferred to the home inspector.



  31. #31
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Steger View Post
    So, they were going to sue you because you read the seller's disclosure and didn't find the hidden damage? That doesn't make much sense simply linking the two together. If the client pointed this area out as a concern, I would have done my best to inspect that area, stated what I could and couldn't see (document this in the report), take photos showing the condition of the area at that time (showing insulation, rugs, etc. blocking access) and moved on.

    What you would have done is make sure that you covered your liability on the unknown/unseen potential damages that may be present in detail. The disclosure would have given you a heads up on why you are seeing the damage (warped floor) that is present on the date of the inspection. I think you would not have had the problem stated by Mathew Stouffer . Mathew Stouffer should have taken the disclosure information with more concern than he apparently did. Moving the rug, table or ta 400 lb gorilla is prudent. Though the state SOP may say that you are not required to move obstructions, if possible it is still a good idea. If you use the SOP to protect yourself, it is prudent to make sure that you make an exhaustive statement that you were not able to inspect the area/item as to all of the possibilities that may exist. For Mathew Stouffer an extra five minutes of typing would have saved him $1,750.

    Decades ago there it was the wild west in the area of disclosure. Today it is a common piece of paperwork. The disclosure by the seller is, for the most part, the items that the seller thinks that may come back and bite them. The seller will not list every little thing that has happen to the property. Like going to a doctor and giving them a medical history which provides for areas of heightened concern. The Inspector should have the seller's disclosure to enhance the inspection and what is found.

    Not asking for a copy of the disclosure leaves you open for an area of liability. Asking for and then being refused the disclosure only aids in you liability exposure.

    So long story short. Ask for any and all information (specifically the disclosure statement) that is available on the property, it can only produce a better report.

    I have to concur with Bill Hetner in standing up for one's self if you are in the right.

    I would disagree with Mathew Stouffer in increasing your liability. I would thing that the entire industry is heading toward a situation where in court the inspector is lead to acknowledging that the disclosure would have been vital in the inspection. Therefore knowing that it existed but not requested leaves room for a decision against the inspector. Not just, but a judge will give a greater consideration to the buyer over the inspector for damages awarded. See it in rent court all the time. The judge looks for ways to put the tenant at an advantage, failing they then look to the letter of the law.

    If a state does not require a disclosure statement the buyer can demand one as part of the contract. If that is the case I would also require that the Seller's agent be required, in writing, to disclose any inform that the agent may be aware of in fact or by statements made by any parties that the agent may have come in contact with at any time.


  32. #32
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    What you would have done is make sure that you covered your liability on the unknown/unseen potential damages that may be present in detail. The disclosure would have given you a heads up on why you are seeing the damage (warped floor) that is present on the date of the inspection. I think you would not have had the problem stated by Mathew Stouffer . Mathew Stouffer should have taken the disclosure information with more concern than he apparently did. Moving the rug, table or ta 400 lb gorilla is prudent. Though the state SOP may say that you are not required to move obstructions, if possible it is still a good idea. If you use the SOP to protect yourself, it is prudent to make sure that you make an exhaustive statement that you were not able to inspect the area/item as to all of the possibilities that may exist. For Mathew Stouffer an extra five minutes of typing would have saved him $1,750.

    Decades ago there it was the wild west in the area of disclosure. Today it is a common piece of paperwork. The disclosure by the seller is, for the most part, the items that the seller thinks that may come back and bite them. The seller will not list every little thing that has happen to the property. Like going to a doctor and giving them a medical history which provides for areas of heightened concern. The Inspector should have the seller's disclosure to enhance the inspection and what is found.

    Not asking for a copy of the disclosure leaves you open for an area of liability. Asking for and then being refused the disclosure only aids in you liability exposure.

    So long story short. Ask for any and all information (specifically the disclosure statement) that is available on the property, it can only produce a better report.

    I have to concur with Bill Hetner in standing up for one's self if you are in the right.

    I would disagree with Mathew Stouffer in increasing your liability. I would thing that the entire industry is heading toward a situation where in court the inspector is lead to acknowledging that the disclosure would have been vital in the inspection. Therefore knowing that it existed but not requested leaves room for a decision against the inspector. Not just, but a judge will give a greater consideration to the buyer over the inspector for damages awarded. See it in rent court all the time. The judge looks for ways to put the tenant at an advantage, failing they then look to the letter of the law.

    If a state does not require a disclosure statement the buyer can demand one as part of the contract. If that is the case I would also require that the Seller's agent be required, in writing, to disclose any inform that the agent may be aware of in fact or by statements made by any parties that the agent may have come in contact with at any time.
    As far as not asking for the sellers disclosure and it increasing your liability. I don't think that is the case at all.

    Asking the client if they saw any particular items of concern in the home when they were there or if they had any concerns off the top of their head is all any inspector needs to do. What you are saying is that if there has been an addition to the home and no permits were pulled and you did not check on all previous permits to the home that you would be liable. Even if you see that there has been an addition and did not check on previous permits and there was non that you would be liable. None of that is the case at all. None of that is your job as a Home Inspector no matter what guidelines you follow or SOPs or just moral sense.

    You are there for NOW disclosure, what you find or see or test now, not 5 year ago disclosure unless it is obvious to the eye and you did not write it up., then you would be liable. That 5 year ago disclosure is only if you find it as a concern now. If it is not visible, as in not having to tear apart walls, or the item tests out OK, now, then it is what it is.

    Simple case in point. Not asking for the disclosure from the seller/sellers agent does not make you liable for anything. Being offered it because your client has concerns of items on that disclosure and refusing to look at it/concerns of your client? Then you would be liable in some sense.

    I ask my client if there are any known concerns or anything in particular that they want me to take a closer look at even though I will be looking at it anyway. Nothing back in return? They get the same inspection as I would anyway for anyone. They would anyway. The asking is being polite and they may just have disclosure in hand and want me to check out the few items of concern. If I see a new roof and it is so new that I cannot tell the age at all I will ask if they are aware of a new roof and most of the time they will say that the new roof was in the disclosure from the seller and was replaced a couple years ago at best, "we were wondering about that", even though I asked them about anything in particular..


  33. #33
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I think obtaining the disclosure and relating to it in your report would be considered due diligence in protecting your client.
    I also like to wave it under the brokers nose when the lie about house conditions over the phone.
    If I see extensive water penetration issues and the disclosure indicates occasional seepage.
    It all goes in the report, verbatum, with "consult with owner for further disclosure on any and all past water penetration isses with this home".


  34. #34
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I wouldn't ask for it. It's much more fun to ask the client after the inspection "were any of these things on the sellers disclosure?"


  35. #35
    Ken Bates's Avatar
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    Default Re: realator disclosure statement

    I live and work in Massachusetts, ( The State that voted against the big rats I.e Reagan, Nixon, and the Neanderthal Bush family ) ( It is also the only State out of 50 that has legislation that forbids Home Inspectors to get brown noses and tongues by "sucking up to real estate sales sleazoids" )

    Salesmen are not providing useful disclosure statements. Several years ago, my licensing body required me to provide my clients a list of questions to ask the seller or his agents regarding known property defects.

    Up to 2009, most salesmen were giving their customers (my clients) a complete survery/questionaire/list of disclosures (about 3 pages).

    With a tight selling market, I find that only a few are giving a cursory 1 pg. disclosure.

    At the beginning of every inspection, I hand my client a sheet of paper that contains every important question to ask. (sometimes I email these questions prior to my inspection) I ALWAYS TELL MY CLIENTS "DO NOT TELL ME WHAT THEY SAID, TELL ME WHEN I AM FINISHED,---- I WANT TO EARN MY FEE ON MY OWN, NO HELP, HINTS OR CLUES." This is one of the things that impress my clients and cause them to use me again or give me referrals. I am proud of this. So I never ask for disclosures until I have delivered the report to my clients. ( I deliver my report on site )

    Last edited by Ken Bates; 08-20-2011 at 10:29 PM. Reason: TYPOS & SYNTAX/GRAMMAR

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