Thread: Roof rafter framing splicing

Gentelmen,

Inspected a newer home (within 10 years) and the roof framing was stick built with 2x6's. The roof was a hip style and the common roof rafters ended up being a bit too short so, they spliced each one to make them long enough near the ridge. I can't recall seeing so many done this way and it just stuck out like a sore thumb. I research my building code book but no where does it say that these members cannot be spliced. What would your take on this framing be? I recommended further evaluation by a qualified contractor to determine if correction was even needed. Before I recommend additional evaluation by a design professional or PE, I thought I'd get some opinions.

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AH, the old board stretcher trick!
Spliced rafters may or may not be ok. However, I would want a structural engineer to OK any framing modifications.
Asking a contractor to look at it is a waste of time in my opinion. After all, it might have been a contractor that did it.

The original rafters don't appear short in the photo. How far off were they?

At each arrow (approx) is the splice in the rafter.

I see it now after enlarging the photo. Looks like they used whatever they had laying around, or didn't order the right lumber, as they're not even close.

That kind of framing should be blessed by an Engineer, not a contractor.

Dom.

Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann

Spliced rafters may or may not be ok. However, I would want a structural engineer to OK any framing modifications.

Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino

That kind of framing should be blessed by an Engineer, not a contractor.

Agreed - skip the contractor and go directly to the engineer.

I don't see how you can splice them and have it be ok. Engineering is a must on this one. You would be relying soley on the nails for all the load.

A splice like this is fine. The largest load of a span is in the center and the loads at the ends are easier to handle because all they do is transfer to the bearing wall. Seen this a bunch of times.

The maximum bending moment in a simple span is at the mid point of the span. The maximum shear is at the bearing. So the splice at that location does not need to resist a great deal of moment but does need to carry the majority of the shear from one side of the splice to the other.

At the point of splice the rafters are mostly compression members so it should be fine, but if someone hired me to review this I would ask for 2x6 rafter ties to form a triangle with the sistered members.

it's ok but they need to install collar ties at least every 48 " in my opinion

It sounds like some folks here have an understanding of the engineering principals involved, however I would never put my name and license at risk on a judgement call like this. It will probably be OK if collar ties are installed (probably at each rafter set), but get the engineer to make that design and put his stamp of approval on it.

May not be applicable to your area but around here:


R804.3.2.3 Roof rafter splice.
Roof rafters shall not be spliced.


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Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt

May not be applicable to your area but around here:


R804.3.2.3 Roof rafter splice.
Roof rafters shall not be spliced.


-

This section actually applies to steel framed rafters. I don't think that there is a similar section for wood rafters.

Originally Posted by Fred Herndon

It sounds like some folks here have an understanding of the engineering principals involved, however I would never put my name and license at risk on a judgement call like this. It will probably be OK if collar ties are installed (probably at each rafter set), but get the engineer to make that design and put his stamp of approval on it.

Totally agree, not an inspectors call to make. BTW your tag-line on your signature is a great one!

When I was a carpenter the engineer who helped me on structural issues always wanted a sister to be 2/3 the span of the member nailed from both faces with minimum 12d nails at 12" o.c., staggered.

While this may seem like a helluva lot of extra lumber it's purpose is to provide enough fasteners to accumulate enough shear value to overcome or replace the forces on the short member. In other words, by joining the two boards in this way you are getting them to act as one.

In your photo the overlaps can't be more than a couple feet and consequently they can't have more than a couple nails on each side of the splice.

Others have talked about the bending moment. In this case the greatest bending moment as repaired is at the splice hence the need for more metal there to counteract it. Once the repairs are properly completed the bending moment shifts back to it's normal location

Were I to encounter this in a H.I. I would say that it looks inadequate and why and refer the client to a P.E. for a proper solution.

A further point...

Rafter Ties are only effective in the bottom third of the vertical span. Running a collar tie here, at or below the splice is completely ineffective. Talk about bending moment. Sheesh!

A rafter tie is in tension essentially, all of it. It's purpose is to keep the bottom ends of the rafters from spreading. The top ends of common rafters are held by gravity and fasteners as long as the bottom ends are prevented from spreading. Hence rafter ties are installed at the lower end of the rafters.

Putting a collar tie in at the top end of a short roof rafter will likely cause a problem. The original short rafter wants to drop or fall against the ridge so installing a tie on an inadequately sistered rafter turns the collar tie into a compressive member which will actually push against the other side of the roof.

Just sayin...

Originally Posted by Michael Avis

A further point...

Collar Ties are only effective in the bottom third of the vertical span. Running a collar tie here, at or below the splice is completely ineffective. Talk about bending moment. Sheesh!

A collar tie is in tension essentially, all of it. It's purpose is to keep the bottom ends of the rafters from spreading. Many misunderstand this and think the collar tie is intended to anchor the top ends of the rafters. Not true. The top ends are held by gravity and fasteners as long as the bottom ends are prevented from spreading. Hence collar ties are installed at the lower end of the rafters.

Putting a collar tie in at the top end of a short roof rafter will likely cause a problem. The original short rafter wants to drop or fall against the ridge so installing a tie on an inadequately sistered rafter turns the collar tie into a compressive member which will actually push against the other side of the roof.

Just sayin...

I think you mean rafter tie in the bottom third. Collar ties are in the upper third.

Yes thank you. I stand corrected. Fingers sometimes get ahead of my brain. I do stand by the gist of my point even though my nomenclature was wrong. Appreciate the correction. Have edited my previous post to correct the language with your help and so I don't look like an idiot.

M.__

You're right I spoke too fast......collar ties should be in the upper third and they should have scabbed the rafters on both sides and nailed the heck out of them....and installed collar ties......but then again if the rafter was short they should have just added a tail at the bottom. But maybe they did do this...we don't know.......Scabbing rafters together to make them longer is not uncommon as they only come so long.....they just need to be done right......

Funny that I just came across this post - I inspected a 10 year old house with this very same issue yesterday. All of the rear 2X8 16" OC rafters were spliced and there were BIG sags at the splices. The front 2X6 16" OC rafters weren't spliced and were fine. Some other interesting carpentry/math mistakes were in the crawlspace framing. The seller asked - why didn't the earlier inspector find this?? And the missing insulation, etc., etc. Why indeed! This stuff was obvious.

I guess the implication here is that a splice is always improper but I don't think that thinking is correct. It's not that is is spliced but how it is spliced.If you think about it two pieces of wood properly joined can be stronger than one. If you've ever looked at web trusses or I joists you'll often see two by's connected by no more than a gangnail or fingerjoint. Also most beams are only two pieces joined together by nailing. The problem with most splices for rafters is that the framer gets lazy and uses too short a piece for the splice and uses too few nails. If you look carefully at how splices fail you'll find that is usually the case. When I had to I used to make my splices with 8' long 3/4" plywood glued and pepper nailed on both sides (very strong).

Originally Posted by Michael Bronner

Gentelmen,

Inspected a newer home (within 10 years) and the roof framing was stick built with 2x6's. The roof was a hip style and the common roof rafters ended up being a bit too short so, they spliced each one to make them long enough near the ridge. I can't recall seeing so many done this way and it just stuck out like a sore thumb. I research my building code book but no where does it say that these members cannot be spliced. What would your take on this framing be? I recommended further evaluation by a qualified contractor to determine if correction was even needed. Before I recommend additional evaluation by a design professional or PE, I thought I'd get some opinions.

Michael Bronner,

Presently your location just says "Marietta". Would you mind clarifying that (in your profile perhaps, so it appears with all of your past/future posts)? Georgia, Illinois, etc. There is more than one "Marietta". Your location will determine which "code books" to reference/point you to, including any ammendments thereto, and any standards and other materials incorporated therein. Thanks.

That's an easy one to call out for not enough nails. It looks like they banged nails in only on one side. I see no heads on the sisters sides.

It is possible to sister rafters, but as Michael and others have said, it needs to be done properly and that includes properly nailed.

Originally Posted by Thom Huggett

This section actually applies to steel framed rafters. I don't think that there is a similar section for wood rafters.

Wiping egg off face for not reading more carefully!

Just found this link that looks interesting but have not studied it yet.
http://www.constructioncalc.com/blog...d-ridge-beams/

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Agreed - skip the contractor and go directly to the engineer.

As a framing contractor on luxury homes in the DFW metroplex, rafter splicing is very common as 2x6 can be ordered in finger joint lengths up to 36' and 2x8 fingerjoint can be ordered up to 40'. Any lengths longer have to be spliced. You see where you can brace directly underneath the splice and make the spliced rafter designed that way. You do not need an engineer for this. You do the same thing for your 2x6 commons, which I have done up to 48 feet long, again, you design the splice for a purlin directly at the splice, and purlin legs go on at every other rafter as usual. No engineer is required. If you don't know how to do this, you have no business framing a multi-million dollar home, and if you don't know this as a Professional Home Inspector... you shouldn't do pre-dry wall inspections. I have not been an Inspector very long, but I can tell you this, I am disappointed in the knowledge that most inspectors have. I come on here and just read from now on. Many inspectors on here have just told me to shut up, so I have... but I read and learn some things I don't know. But some of your questions on here... means you have no business doing inspections on someone's biggest investment on pre-dry wall. If you have no framing experience... leave it to the experts. I read someone say... no rafter splicing.... really??? You think you can just order material any length you want??? My biggest residential frame was 18,000 sq ft and cost 20 million. I have about 300 others between 1 mil and 15 mil. A different set of codes for smaller homes and those over 6,000 sq ft , and they change again over 10,000 sq ft as well, and if you don't know about rafter splicing... you need to go hang out and watch framers for a while.... after a few years, you might be able to inspect pre-dry wall... correctly, at least on the tiny trac homes, where you have the simple framing codes.

I sent this to you Jerry because you are the smartest guy on here all the time and you always seem to know the right answers, but you didn't know this one, but now you do. You always do a good job on here helping the other inspectors that ... sometimes have a serious lack of knowledge. This is just common sense, and that is what framing is all about. Geometry, trig, algebra, and common sense. Lots and lots of complex math must be performed at super speed to frame with the big dogs, and earn the title of "elite class framer". You also must be able to run a 30 man crew and handle the pressure of a $20,000 per week payroll.

I would still be framing, if there was anything to frame. Only way to match the money I was making is to have about 7 inspectors working for me, which will happen in due time. Half of my work comes from inspecting after other inspectors... after seeing their reports from the clients and realtors. It is way too easy to get your inspector license. It needs to be much more difficult... too many of them out there do not know what they are doing, at least here in Texas. This I have noticed in only 6 months on the job.

I will go silent again. I will continue to read and learn the details here. But some questions... I just have to say something.

Originally Posted by Michael Bronner

Gentelmen,

Inspected a newer home (within 10 years) and the roof framing was stick built with 2x6's. The roof was a hip style and the common roof rafters ended up being a bit too short so, they spliced each one to make them long enough near the ridge. I can't recall seeing so many done this way and it just stuck out like a sore thumb. I research my building code book but no where does it say that these members cannot be spliced. What would your take on this framing be? I recommended further evaluation by a qualified contractor to determine if correction was even needed. Before I recommend additional evaluation by a design professional or PE, I thought I'd get some opinions.

As a framing contractor on luxury homes in the DFW metroplex, rafter splicing is very common as 2x6 can be ordered in finger joint lengths up to 36' and 2x8 fingerjoint can be ordered up to 40'. Any lengths longer have to be spliced. You see where you can brace directly underneath the splice and make the spliced rafter designed that way. You do not need an engineer for this. You do the same thing for your 2x6 commons, which I have done up to 48 feet long, again, you design the splice for a purlin directly at the splice, and purlin legs go on at every other rafter as usual. No engineer is required. If you don't know how to do this, you have no business framing a multi-million dollar home, and if you don't know this as a Professional Home Inspector... you shouldn't do pre-dry wall inspections. I have not been an Inspector very long, but I can tell you this, I am disappointed in the knowledge that most inspectors have. I come on here and just read from now on. Many inspectors on here have just told me to shut up, so I have... but I read and learn some things I don't know. But some of your questions on here... means you have no business doing inspections on someone's biggest investment on pre-dry wall. If you have no framing experience... leave it to the experts. I read someone say... no rafter splicing.... really??? You think you can just order material any length you want??? My biggest residential frame was 18,000 sq ft and cost 20 million. I have about 300 others between 1 mil and 15 mil. A different set of codes for smaller homes and those over 6,000 sq ft , and they change again over 10,000 sq ft as well, and if you don't know about rafter splicing... you need to go hang out and watch framers for a while.... after a few years, you might be able to inspect pre-dry wall... correctly, at least on the tiny trac homes, where you have the simple framing codes.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

As a framing contractor on luxury homes in the DFW metroplex, rafter splicing is very common as 2x6 can be ordered in finger joint lengths up to 36' and 2x8 fingerjoint can be ordered up to 40'. Any lengths longer have to be spliced. You see where you can brace directly underneath the splice and make the spliced rafter designed that way. You do not need an engineer for this. You do the same thing for your 2x6 commons, which I have done up to 48 feet long, again, you design the splice for a purlin directly at the splice, and purlin legs go on at every other rafter as usual. No engineer is required. If you don't know how to do this, you have no business framing a multi-million dollar home, and if you don't know this as a Professional Home Inspector... you shouldn't do pre-dry wall inspections. I have not been an Inspector very long, but I can tell you this, I am disappointed in the knowledge that most inspectors have. I come on here and just read from now on. Many inspectors on here have just told me to shut up, so I have... but I read and learn some things I don't know. But some of your questions on here... means you have no business doing inspections on someone's biggest investment on pre-dry wall. If you have no framing experience... leave it to the experts. I read someone say... no rafter splicing.... really??? You think you can just order material any length you want??? My biggest residential frame was 18,000 sq ft and cost 20 million. I have about 300 others between 1 mil and 15 mil. A different set of codes for smaller homes and those over 6,000 sq ft , and they change again over 10,000 sq ft as well, and if you don't know about rafter splicing... you need to go hang out and watch framers for a while.... after a few years, you might be able to inspect pre-dry wall... correctly, at least on the tiny trac homes, where you have the simple framing codes.

Looks like they made a lot of extra work for themselves. Otherwise, when I see this and they have overlapped the wood a sufficient distance, I don't consider it wrong. I do look for collar ties and occasionally ridge struts. I did notice that the ridge beam is too small. Did anyone catch that?

Originally Posted by Ray Babcock

Looks like they made a lot of extra work for themselves. Otherwise, when I see this and they have overlapped the wood a sufficient distance, I don't consider it wrong. I do look for collar ties and occasionally ridge struts. I did notice that the ridge beam is too small. Did anyone catch that?

I did not see the photo, but the commons must have full bearing on the ridge. Any and all spliced rafters, (commons, jacks, hips, valleys, fly-hips, or climbers) must have a brace directly underneath the splice, and must come to bear on a wall or sufficient size beam to carry the load. Here in Texas, there is no exception to this at any point in time.

The splice must be at least 2' long or a 2' "V" splice, and 1/2 osb, 4' long must be nailed on both sides of the splice. Some cities will let you get by with just one side.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

. . . . if you don't know this as a Professional Home Inspector... you shouldn't do pre-dry wall inspections. . . . . but I can tell you this, I am disappointed in the knowledge that most inspectors have. . . . .

Well Richard, you may not be the world's most tactful person but I have to agree with you.

If as a home inspector all you do is refer to a PE or another profession to finalize your report you are not doing your customner justice. Any Joe can look at a piece of construction and say "you'd better call someone that knows about these things".

I did notice the ridge beam but when I looked it up I found 2003 IRC r 802.3 which says "the ridge board....shall not be less in depth than the end of the rafter" which was a surprise to me because I always made them two inches wider as a standard practice. I still think it is a good idea though.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

A different set of codes for smaller homes and those over 6,000 sq ft , and they change again over 10,000 sq ft as well, and if you don't know about rafter splicing... you need to go hang out and watch framers for a while.... after a few years, you might be able to inspect pre-dry wall... correctly, at least on the tiny trac homes, where you have the simple framing codes.

There is not a separate code for different sizes of single family residential houses.

I see that you are in Texas so the very minimum you can build a house is to the 2000 IRC. Now if other cities have adopted a different year then you must build to that year of the IRC.

Now a municipality may have adopted requirements for a fire sprinkler to be installed if the structure is over a specific square footage however there are NO separate codes for different sizes of houses. 200 square feet up to infinity square feet can be built under the same code! If you get "outside" the perscriptive of the code, then an engineer or a design professional is required to submitt plans for approval!

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

As a framing contractor on luxury homes in the DFW metroplex, rafter splicing is very common as 2x6 can be ordered in finger joint lengths up to 36' and 2x8 fingerjoint can be ordered up to 40'. Any lengths longer have to be spliced.

I built custom homes in Texas some 30 plus years ago but never had a problem obtaining rafter boards long enough for what I needed. The splice overlap shown in the photo seems minimal to me but after 10 years in place, you can probably call them adequate for the job. While, it is true that the load near the ends of a rafter is less than toward the middle, it seems to me that bracing those splices in a geographical location where snow load is a consideration makes sense. In Lewisville, TX or Marietta, GA, snow loads are rarely a concern, but if I were inspecting that home in either of those locations, I would comment to the buyer that after ten years and no problems, those splices are probably fine but they should have evaluation by a qualified engineer if they have any concerns.

Many jurisdictions give designers the option of designing under the International Building Code or International Residential Code. Most engineers design under the structural provisions of the IBC as that is what they are most familiar with (in California, anyway). As stated by Wayne, both the IRC and IBC allow unlimited area for 1 and 2 family dwellings.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

I did not see the photo, but the commons must have full bearing on the ridge. Any and all spliced rafters, (commons, jacks, hips, valleys, fly-hips, or climbers) must have a brace directly underneath the splice, and must come to bear on a wall or sufficient size beam to carry the load. Here in Texas, there is no exception to this at any point in time.

The splice must be at least 2' long or a 2' "V" splice, and 1/2 osb, 4' long must be nailed on both sides of the splice. Some cities will let you get by with just one side.

Code Check 802.3 says Hip and valley rafters min 1x and full depth of cut rafter. In otherwords, one size larger that the rafter for ridge beams. Valleys and Hips are 2x.

Originally Posted by Lon Henderson

I built custom homes in Texas some 30 plus years ago but never had a problem obtaining rafter boards long enough for what I needed. The splice overlap shown in the photo seems minimal to me but after 10 years in place, you can probably call them adequate for the job. While, it is true that the load near the ends of a rafter is less than toward the middle, it seems to me that bracing those splices in a geographical location where snow load is a consideration makes sense. In Lewisville, TX or Marietta, GA, snow loads are rarely a concern, but if I were inspecting that home in either of those locations, I would comment to the buyer that after ten years and no problems, those splices are probably fine but they should have evaluation by a qualified engineer if they have any concerns.

You know, 30 plus years ago is a long time, and I don't mean to be rude, but that tells me that you can't frame a multi-million dollar home. They are far too complex compared to that era of framing, and you don't even read the entire message. I told you the longest lengths that 2x6 and 2x8 come in. That length is for anywhere in the USA. It's obvious you have never done what we call a "monster home". I have framed homes for the super rich. Dallas Cowboys, Texas Rangers, Dallas Mavericks players. The fact that you could always get rafters the length you needed, tells me all I need to know about the "size" of the houses you framed, which means you were probably about a class C framer, because you have no idea what I'm talking about. If you were a good enough framer, and if you owned the company, you would have never left to become a home inspector. It's going to take me a while to build my company to the size I need to make that same money.

And yes, I do own a remodeling company. There is not that much work, but I still make more money per week remodeling than inspections. Currently adding on to the 2nd floor of a two-story now.

I added to my career because of the economy... sounds like you quit framing because of other reasons.

Originally Posted by Ray Babcock

Code Check 802.3 says Hip and valley rafters min 1x and full depth of cut rafter. In otherwords, one size larger that the rafter for ridge beams. Valleys and Hips are 2x.

That is not right. The head cut on the rafter, aka the pitch cut, must have full bearing on the ridge. You guys can go around quoting the codes all day long, but you don't know how to apply them in the real world. You are talking in the area where I am qualified as an expert, for any state. I know all about tie downs, hurricane straps, snow loads. Has anyone here taken Calculus based Physics? Probably not.

When the pitch is 12 or more, then a 2x8 ridge no longer passes code, you have to use a 2x10. When you use I-Beams for rafters, you have to calculate the length of the pitch cut for the height of that I-Bm to see how tall to order your LVL ridge (Micro-Lam 2.0 E)

Just because you can read the code book, doesn't mean that is how it works in the real world, If that was the case, when you need open heart surgery, you need to use a fresh graduate from medical school to perform the surgery, after all, he just finished reading all about it.... no experience required... right?? That book told him everything he needs to know??

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

There is not a separate code for different sizes of single family residential houses.

I see that you are in Texas so the very minimum you can build a house is to the 2000 IRC. Now if other cities have adopted a different year then you must build to that year of the IRC.

Now a municipality may have adopted requirements for a fire sprinkler to be installed if the structure is over a specific square footage however there are NO separate codes for different sizes of houses. 200 square feet up to infinity square feet can be built under the same code! If you get "outside" the perscriptive of the code, then an engineer or a design professional is required to submitt plans for approval!

Hi Wayne,

I see you have never framed either. There are 5 classifications of framing codes as they are known by. They are classed as F1, F2, F3, F4, and F5. They chose these names based on tornadoes. Example: Small homes fall under F1.... and then commercial frame goes to F5, with most of F5 being schools and daycare centers.

As the classification changes, so does the degree of strength in the frame changes, hence, we call them different codes. F3 is for 4000 - 6000 sq ft, over 6000 is F4, and over 10,000 is F5 - just like commercial, which yes, means additional fire blocking, sheer walls, more tie downs, straps, fire sprinklers, ets...........

You guys that have never owned a framing company for at least 30 yrs, do not know the codes like I do, and you never will. This can't be taught in school, nor can you know everything or understand how to apply it without living it, 8-10 hrs per day, 6 days per week, for 31 yrs now.

It can't be done... so give it up. This is why I inspect after other inspectors... granted... not you.. but the inspectors that have no business being inspectors... you guys are different... you guys care... but there are a whole load of inspectors out there that need their license taken away from them. The standards for Professional Home Inspectors must be raised. The bar must be set higher, and I hope to change that bar here in Texas. It will take me a while... but I will make a difference in changing the standards and the experience required before you can get a license. Result = better pay and lots of work for those who meet the new standards.

Changes must be made.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

Hi Wayne,

I see you have never framed either. There are 5 classifications of framing codes as they are known by. They are classed as F1, F2, F3, F4, and F5. They chose these names based on tornadoes. Example: Small homes fall under F1.... and then commercial frame goes to F5, with most of F5 being schools and daycare centers.

As the classification changes, so does the degree of strength in the frame changes, hence, we call them different codes. F3 is for 4000 - 6000 sq ft, over 6000 is F4, and over 10,000 is F5 - just like commercial, which yes, means additional fire blocking, sheer walls, more tie downs, straps, fire sprinklers, ets...........

You guys that have never owned a framing company for at least 30 yrs, do not know the codes like I do, and you never will. This can't be taught in school, nor can you know everything or understand how to apply it without living it, 8-10 hrs per day, 6 days per week, for 31 yrs now.

It can't be done... so give it up. This is why I inspect after other inspectors... granted... not you.. but the inspectors that have no business being inspectors... you guys are different... you guys care... but there are a whole load of inspectors out there that need their license taken away from them. The standards for Professional Home Inspectors must be raised. The bar must be set higher, and I hope to change that bar here in Texas. It will take me a while... but I will make a difference in changing the standards and the experience required before you can get a license. Result = better pay and lots of work for those who meet the new standards.

Changes must be made.

Yes I have been a framer and I have framed multi-million dollar homes also. But when you start spitting out different codes for different square footages of houses you are talking out of your rear end! I see noe references to the different types of construction you are stating in the one and only code for single family residential construction. Now there are different types of construction as far as "type" goes. Your SFR are usually Type V construction. Do you know what Type V construction is? I didn't think so!

There is one code for residential houses... the IRC. Now you do have different wind zones that does require different techniques to "pass" code but you do not use a different code.

In my area houses are designed for 90 mph wind load and the seismic of A catagory! Also the wind bracing must be designed using Category B for the design because of the type of layout of the subdivision. I would be willing to bet you that you know nothing about how to design the windbracing or the amount of wind bracing you need for just a typical residence! You do know there are requirements don't you? The wndbracing went from about 6 pages to around 36 pages of requiremnts in the code. I would be willing to bet you are just a framer and know nothing about the codes. You only frame what is handed to you in a set of blueprints!

Don't start rattling off that you are an expert when you don't even know that you only have one code for the design and build of a residential structure. Are you a good framer... I would say probably so but you don't know squat about the codes.

Oh and yes I gave spliced rafters, hips, and valleys when the lumber company could not provide us with the proper length of materials. I agree that you have to split them over a purling and then brace them down to a wall. However there is nothing in the code on how to go about splicing hips, rafters, and valleys in the code. It is usually an accepted practice for what you describe. If the inspector doesn't "buy" that type of configuration then you must get an engineer to provide documentation that the method is an approved method according to his calculations.

Just saying you are popping off stuff that you know nothing about!

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

You know, 30 plus years ago is a long time, and I don't mean to be rude, but that tells me that you can't frame a multi-million dollar home. They are far too complex compared to that era of framing, and you don't even read the entire message. I told you the longest lengths that 2x6 and 2x8 come in.

Holy cow.......you must be the lowest cost builder in Texas because you can frame anything with just those enormous chips off your shoulder. That you somehow could be insulted by my comments says all I need to know about you. Seeesh, there wasn't even the slightest insult in my comment. Just a casual comment. But you can pat yourself on the back, because your assessment of what I have built (not only in Texas but here in Colorado) is correct. Just to let you know, even way back then in the dark ages of construction, we had finger jointed lumber (and nail guns).

I have been doing home, multi-unit, and light commercial inspections for nearly 15 years and with more thousands of inspections behind me than I have tried to count, I do know a few things about the business and a few things about people. (And I have inspected the homes of six Denver Broncos over the years and a few multi-million dollar homes some of which were built by arrogant jerks)

I thought your comment about bracing at the splice is dead on, and that was the point of my little commentary. From a common sense viewpoint, bracing any and every spliced rafter may not be necessary in places where roof loads are never more than the weight of the shingles and a couple of inches of snow. However, where I live, we can have multiple feet of snow on a roof and an unsupported spliced rafter can be vulnerable. So, whether code or not, common sense here would call for bracing those spliced rafters.

As home inspectors we have to (or should) combine, knowledge and common sense to give our customers the best advice. At the risk of further offense, while you seem to be loaded with the former, I don't see a shred of evidence in your comments here, that you have any of the latter. Smart people are a dime a dozen, folks with common sense are worth a whole lot more.

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Yes I have been a framer and I have framed multi-million dollar homes also. But when you start spitting out different codes for different square footages of houses you are talking out of your rear end! I see noe references to the different types of construction you are stating in the one and only code for single family residential construction. Now there are different types of construction as far as "type" goes. Your SFR are usually Type V construction. Do you know what Type V construction is? I didn't think so!

There is one code for residential houses... the IRC. Now you do have different wind zones that does require different techniques to "pass" code but you do not use a different code.

In my area houses are designed for 90 mph wind load and the seismic of A catagory! Also the wind bracing must be designed using Category B for the design because of the type of layout of the subdivision. I would be willing to bet you that you know nothing about how to design the windbracing or the amount of wind bracing you need for just a typical residence! You do know there are requirements don't you? The wndbracing went from about 6 pages to around 36 pages of requiremnts in the code. I would be willing to bet you are just a framer and know nothing about the codes. You only frame what is handed to you in a set of blueprints!

Don't start rattling off that you are an expert when you don't even know that you only have one code for the design and build of a residential structure. Are you a good framer... I would say probably so but you don't know squat about the codes.

Oh and yes I gave spliced rafters, hips, and valleys when the lumber company could not provide us with the proper length of materials. I agree that you have to split them over a purling and then brace them down to a wall. However there is nothing in the code on how to go about splicing hips, rafters, and valleys in the code. It is usually an accepted practice for what you describe. If the inspector doesn't "buy" that type of configuration then you must get an engineer to provide documentation that the method is an approved method according to his calculations.

Just saying you are popping off stuff that you know nothing about!

Hello, Mr. Building Official,

You are a city inspector. I know what that means. That's why you got so angry. You really do know nothing. City inspectors are people who couldn't cut it in the real world.
Everyone in construction knows that.

Your profile says you had 16 yrs construction experience, nothing about owning the company. You have been a city inspector since 1984. Wow. City inspectors can't be sued when they inspect wrong, but Professional Inspectors can. All you know how to do is read the code book. You have no idea what I'm talking about, because you have personally never framed or owned since 1984... almost 30 yrs ago Wayne!!

Like most inspectors, your knowledge compared to an elite framer is a joke!!! You know nothing and never will. So, stop parading around on your high mighty words. I have had to go around city inspectors so many times it isn't funny, and so have the builders. That's why every elite framer has his own engineer to make people like you shut up. I have no respect for city inspectors. You guys play with framers money and think you know what's going on, and you don't!!! You shouldn't even be allowed to be on here. You do not even have a Professional Inspector's License WAYNE !!!

You hide behind the safety of the city government. If you want to be humbled some more, just let me know. I know exactly what you know... nothing !!! Are you even the head official of the city? Or you just one of the many grunts?

Best if you keep to your city inspections and stay on the small houses Wayne, they sound like more your speed.

Framers don't like city inspectors... and you know that... and the builders don't like you either.

I will not discuss anything more with you. I know what you really are now.

You may be a very, very, good man Wayne. A great husband and a wonderful father.

But your knowledge is far below any elite framer. The last time you framed, 2x6 could still clear span 16' or 18', and you could brace rafters on any double joist. No way did you own the company and quit in 1984 to become an inspector. Way, way too much work out there and if you were any good at all, make at least 3 times what you made as an inspector. If you did own the company... then you didn't know what your doing at all.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

As a framing contractor on luxury homes in the DFW metroplex, rafter splicing is very common as 2x6 can be ordered in finger joint lengths up to 36' and 2x8 fingerjoint can be ordered up to 40'. Any lengths longer have to be spliced. You see where you can brace directly underneath the splice and make the spliced rafter designed that way. You do not need an engineer for this.

And THAT (what you described) IS NOT what is shown in that photo.

For what is shown in that photo, you DO need an engineer.

I sent this to you Jerry because you are the smartest guy on here all the time and you always seem to know the right answers,

Not hardly - there are a lot of smart people here.

... but you didn't know this one,

I did get this one correct (although I do no always get them correct) with regard to WHAT WAS ASKED and the photo is question.

It does not matter how many mega-million dollar homes you have framed, or how you did it, at least not as it relates to the original posters question - what matters is that an engineering is required for THAT installation.

One simply does not skimp on a few hundred bucks to try to find a contractor who might know what they are doing - the expenses involved in that could easily far outweigh the cost of the engineer to have it designed properly.

I would hope it was not your practice skimp on paying an engineer when an engineer is needed ... and throwing a bit of extra wood at something and expecting it to stick and be okay is not an acceptable answer.

By the way, is sounds like YOU should know the difference between 'splicing rafters' and installing purlins to reduce rafter spans - and 'splicing rafters' is the discussion.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And THAT (what you described) IS NOT what is shown in that photo.

For what is shown in that photo, you DO need an engineer.



Not hardly - there are a lot of smart people here.



I did get this one correct (although I do no always get them correct) with regard to WHAT WAS ASKED and the photo is question.

It does not matter how many mega-million dollar homes you have framed, or how you did it, at least not as it relates to the original posters question - what matters is that an engineering is required for THAT installation.

One simply does not skimp on a few hundred bucks to try to find a contractor who might know what they are doing - the expenses involved in that could easily far outweigh the cost of the engineer to have it designed properly.

I would hope it was not your practice skimp on paying an engineer when an engineer is needed ... and throwing a bit of extra wood at something and expecting it to stick and be okay is not an acceptable answer.

No sir, I was not just throwing wood at it, and yes, if you didn't know what to do with spliced rafters, then you would need to call an engineer. It's just that I've done that for so long, I already know what the engineer is going to say. At the very least, 1/2 osb or plywood on at least one side, or the full blown version like I had said earlier.

Remember, I'm in Texas in the Dallas area. We have just as many multi-million dollar homes or more, than California.

That practice was required in order to get a green tag. Just a normal part of a city inspection. The builders did not skimp a few hundred bucks to find cheaper contractors. Their was a small group of us elite framers, and we are very expensive because we do know what we are doing. We learned from engineers.

Later on, probably the past 10 yrs now, anything over 10,000 sq ft has to be engineered now, and the plans are bigger than the architects plans. After a few years of framing those, we knew what the engineers would spec out and we could order our materials before we even got the engineering set. Some cities, like Frisco, has engineering for almost everything now. They take the city inspectors out of the picture because of their lack of knowledge and lawsuits because of the problems that city inspectors caused. If you have bad framer on job... it showed, and the city inspectors didn't know right from wrong. The houses are too complex now. The newer, bigger homes are too much for city inspectors too handle for the structure. Just a simple fact here. We bypass them all the time with an engineering letter, and the city likes that, it takes away their responsibility. They slow the job down too much.

Me and my crew took a lot of pride in the fact that we could get our green tag on the first inspection about 95% of the time, and what we missed, was never structural.

Before we had engineering, if we were uncertain, the framer had to call and ask an engineer to spec out our beams that we needed. We designed the layout and the roof, and then asked the engineer what we needed for certain lengths and the load we were putting on it. After a few years, we didn't have to call and ask anymore, because we had learned what to use and how they expected it to be built. This burden fell on the framer, and the builder expected us to know it and how to do it.

This is a very small, tight group that framed these big monsters, and we all stuck together and shared the work if need be. You had to be exceptional to get in. It took me 10 yrs to earn that right framing on the small 6,000 - 8,000 sq ft for practice.

I don't get to frame any monsters now... no work there. Now, we have all changed to remodeling and work there from time to time when you can get the work. Currently have 3 jobs going... 2 are adding a two story section on, and redoing rafter line and a 3rd is changing one story into a two story... that one takes a while. My crew is highly trained and can operate without me when I go do my Inspections.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

No sir, I was not just throwing wood at it, and yes, if you didn't know what to do with spliced rafters, then you would need to call an engineer.

The builders did not skimp a few hundred bucks to find cheaper contractors. Their was a small group of us elite framers, and we are very expensive because we do know what we are doing. We learned from engineers.

Sooo ... the builders did not skimp on the contractors, but the contractors skimped on the engineers?

Not something to brag about.

You may have "learned from engineers" ... BUT ... *the* "engineer" can sign and seal the repair, and then *the* "engineer" can sign and seal a letter stating that the repair was done in accordance to the design. and THAT is something that you cannot do as a non-engineer.

I have learned a lot from engineers too, but I also understand that the friggin' engineering letter is cheap as dirt when compared to what could happen when a contractor comes in and 'just makes a repair'.

There have been a few others here who have adamantly insisted that no engineer is needed for all kinds of things, and the rest of us have the good sense to understand the value of the engineer and the engineer's letter.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Sooo ... the builders did not skimp on the contractors, but the contractors skimped on the engineers?

Not something to brag about.

You may have "learned from engineers" ... BUT ... *the* "engineer" can sign and seal the repair, and then *the* "engineer" can sign and seal a letter stating that the repair was done in accordance to the design. and THAT is something that you cannot do as a non-engineer.

I have learned a lot from engineers too, but I also understand that the friggin' engineering letter is cheap as dirt when compared to what could happen when a contractor comes in and 'just makes a repair'.

There have been a few others here who have adamantly insisted that no engineer is needed for all kinds of things, and the rest of us have the good sense to understand the value of the engineer and the engineer's letter.

Yes, I do as well. I have 3 engineers numbers in my phone, and if, upon request, the client wants the letter, I will get them one. If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes.

You have to decide if you want the job or not, because most of the time, that will make the difference.

I know you are going to quote some legal issues now for this or that... but ... I have never been sued. You have to have the work if you have 7 girls to feed and take care of. You have to live in the real world, not just a paper legal one all the time.

In today's economy, I get the jobs now because I can save them money on engineering issues. If the city wants a letter, then I call the engineer and he looks at and gives the letter... every time.

You sound like you have never met a contractor that knows what he's doing. I have the references and reputation to go on, and people trust that here. You are getting all worked up over nothing unless you had bad experiences.

Yes, you are right, if you get some wanna be contractor in there and he screws it up, yea, you have a very valid point. You always have valid points, all based on legal ramifications. I cover myself in the contracts about engineering letters. If they want them, I get them. You act like you want to sue me just for talking about and how business is now done in this economy. It's obvious you don't do what I do to pay the bills. I have that much knowledge that I , and lots of others, know what to do.

Trust me, it makes a difference. We have to get enough engineering letters as it is, as well as engineering inspections instead of city inspections.

Besides, I do like to come on here about every 5 months or so... and stir up trouble. It brings out the best in people. Can't play sports any more... this is only competition I have.

You are very good though, You do take what I say in its literal sense of the word. If I don't explain fully to you, you catch the detail I missed.

No contractors are skimping here. Home owners want budget cuts, this is what they decide to do. I tell them I know, and that I don't need it. These are serious bidding wars for survival... so calm down. You want to see skimping... come look at my work, then go look at others. I frame everything to high standards... that's why I cost so much.

You want to jump somebody about paper work, take your technical words to congress and get this economy fixed, and if you keep up there as good as you do here, then you know how messed up it is, especially for construction workers, and how no one in congress is doing their job at all... lazy rich bastards. My work has always been controlled by the market... the super rich are now playing games with it, that is if you read Mark Cuban's remark about it. All makes sense too.

Originally Posted by Richard Doty

Yes, I do as well. I have 3 engineers numbers in my phone, and if, upon request, the client wants the letter, I will get them one. If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes.

You have to decide if you want the job or not, because most of the time, that will make the difference.

I know you are going to quote some legal issues now for this or that... but ...

That's where you are barking up the wrong tree ...

"If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes."
- The better response is: "If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes, absolutely, but there is nothing like an engineer's signed and sealed letter to protect you when you go to sell."

I used to inspect multi-million dollar homes before I retired, and the clients buying those homes KNEW the value of what I did AND they knew the additional value of what I recommended regarding engineers and engineers' letters.

I doubt that my clients buying those homes were any more sophisticated that other buyers in other parts of the country who were buying those homes.

Or maybe the buyers over there were buying those homes to live in, whereas many of the buyers I inspected for used them as second, third, and fourth homes, and only lived in them a few weeks a year?

I really do not know which or why, but I do know that people buying more expensive homes DO understand what that little signed and sealed piece of paper does for them. When you are putting in a 70 kW generator just to run the air condition units in case power goes out, you don't ask "Oh, by the way, how much is that fuel going to cost?", just like the few hundred dollars for an engineer is not something which is going to make them balk.

If it was ... they wouldn't be having $100k worth of Venetian Plaster applied to the dining room and living room.

Crimeny, either you worked on multi-million door homes like you said, or you didn't. Which is it?

I feel like I am batting practice here and with Rick on the other thread, they keep lobbing balls right over the plate and I keep hitting them back to keep the game going ... the game is getting tiresome when there are no change-ups, etc. Now, curve balls, yeah, they have tried to throw in some curve balls for distraction ... but all I've had to do is point out that they are to pitch from the pitcher's mound, not from first base.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That's where you are barking up the wrong tree ...

"If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes."
- The better response is: "If they ask me if I know how to fix it without it, I tell them yes, absolutely, but there is nothing like an engineer's signed and sealed letter to protect you when you go to sell."

I used to inspect multi-million dollar homes before I retired, and the clients buying those homes KNEW the value of what I did AND they knew the additional value of what I recommended regarding engineers and engineers' letters.

I doubt that my clients buying those homes were any more sophisticated that other buyers in other parts of the country who were buying those homes.

Or maybe the buyers over there were buying those homes to live in, whereas many of the buyers I inspected for used them as second, third, and fourth homes, and only lived in them a few weeks a year?

I really do not know which or why, but I do know that people buying more expensive homes DO understand what that little signed and sealed piece of paper does for them. When you are putting in a 70 kW generator just to run the air condition units in case power goes out, you don't ask "Oh, by the way, how much is that fuel going to cost?", just like the few hundred dollars for an engineer is not something which is going to make them balk.

If it was ... they wouldn't be having $100k worth of Venetian Plaster applied to the dining room and living room.

Crimeny, either you worked on multi-million door homes like you said, or you didn't. Which is it?

I feel like I am batting practice here and with Rick on the other thread, they keep lobbing balls right over the plate and I keep hitting them back to keep the game going ... the game is getting tiresome when there are no change-ups, etc. Now, curve balls, yeah, they have tried to throw in some curve balls for distraction ... but all I've had to do is point out that they are to pitch from the pitcher's mound, not from first base.

Sorry Jerry, I forgot another detail. I wasn't speaking about inspections when it came to repair, that inspector didn't know what to write up, which means he shouldn't be doing frame inspections in the first place (or pre-dry wall if you prefer) and you were right about engineer, and I should have been more specific, but yea, I know how to fix it, and yes, an engineer would approve the way I fixed it. I was talking about bidding and getting remodeling jobs.

Now, the luxury remodeling will pay for engineering letters, but smaller ones, like the ones I'm doing now, they cut every possible corner.

I wasn't talking about remodeling or repair on a $10 million dollar home. Come on, they never balk over the little stuff, I figured you already knew that... why bring up the obvious??

I mainly deal with a builder and he is doing a flip. If he can save money using me because I know the engineering specs, that lowers his costs. You don't understand... these guys want you to do a two story add on, and when you get finished, the only thing in the trash pile is a tooth pick. I am a structure specialist when it comes to the remodels. We come in and do the demo and frame and go on to the next one. We play GC every now and then, but not often. Less headache dealing with a builder or investor or flipper.

For inspections, I tell them how to fix it, and they should get an engineer to look at it if they so desire. What they do doesn't bother me, since I can't repair it anyway. All I can do is just give some friendly advice or one of my buddies phone numbers.

If you want to see the multi-million dollar homes I have framed, come look for yourself. Biggest one is 18,000 sq ft and worth $20 million. Probably at least 200 or so, plus all the big commercial... about 30 of them.

My grandparents were both Ordained Ministers. I was raised in a church, and I go all the time. I have no reason to lie or stretch the truth or whatever else you may want to doubt. I chose this profession because it was good enough for Jesus Christ... that makes it plenty good for me. It is honest work... it is not crooked or try to steal from people like lawyers, doctors, and politicians. I sleep at night... and I know where my soul will be for all eternity. I hope you know as well.

Richard,

... bunt ...

There is an easy bunt back out to the pitcher's mound for you ...

It's getting dark out and there are no lights for this field, gotta call it a night - hit the showers and maybe continue this practice tomorrow ... or maybe not.

Richard,

You seem to know how to frame a house but know nothing about the codes.You did not answer one single code question.

I am not going to lower my standards debating with you!

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Richard,

You seem to know how to frame a house but know nothing about the codes.You did not answer one single code question.

I am not going to lower my standards debating with you!

Wayne,

When someone has nothing of substance to add or say and they throw in the towel, one way they do it is by trying to cloak themselves in that 'I am a christian and therefore I can do no wrong' gibberish - and that is precisely what Richard did.

I suspect that the real believers here cringed when they read that last post of his ... I know my dad (a retired Methodist minister ... oh crap, did I just tug on that cloak ... ) would have turned pale by Richard's cloaking-in-the-faith act.

It really is pathetic to see someone resort to that final degradation step. Oh well ...