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  1. #1
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    Default Water Heater Attachment

    Can anyone tell me what this flue type device is on the side of the water heater. I could not find any source of power on it.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    From the looks of it ... it looks like a Git-R-Done-yourself direct vent.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Thanks, Jerry. I always appreciate your comments.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    By the way, I don't see a sediment trap installed on the right water heater, and I don't see one installed to serve both water heaters either.

    The photo does not show where one would be present at the left water heater either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Yes, I reported the missing sediment traps.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Some heat exchangers vent from the bottom of the tank. However I've only seen this in condensing units. Not sure how this could work without a power vent.

    A.O. Smith Vertex Water Heaters: An Overview - YouTube


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    That would be a combustion air duct. The vent goes up through the center to heat the water. Otherwise, it would get no combustion air, since it is sitting flat on the base. They also need drain pans, since they are sitting on a wood structure. I also don't see the bonding jumper on the csst gas line.

    Last edited by Scott Cook; 02-05-2012 at 11:43 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Cook View Post
    ...I also don't see the bonding jumper on the csst gas line.
    That may be a conventional flex connector, not CSST.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Tank looks like a Bradford White. Any pics of the top of the tank?

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    That may be a conventional flex connector, not CSST.
    That's probably right, does the rule not apply to them? I never thought about that.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Cook View Post
    That's probably right, does the rule not apply to them? I never thought about that.
    The CSST bonding requirement doesn't apply to conventional connectors.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    The CSST bonding requirement doesn't apply to conventional connectors.

    John,
    Thanks, I'll have to study up on that.

    They do appear to be direct vent configuration with a concentric vent pipe leaving the top to the unit. It looks like a factory made unit, the brand and model number would be needed to look it up. See drawing on page 38. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...akesOF3wMhQxcQ

    Last edited by Scott Cook; 02-07-2012 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Better drawing on page 38

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Although it is obvious, you might want to add that the discharge pipe for the one temperature/pressure relief valve that we can see, doesn't go to the floor, the other valve that appears to be in the right rear corner is probably ready to squirt on the wall. Nice access for testing.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Smith View Post
    Some heat exchangers vent from the bottom of the tank. However I've only seen this in condensing units.
    If you zoom in on that connection to the bottom of the outer metal cabinet, the connection looks like it was hand cut out, and the elbow fitting welded to the steel cabinet. Certainly does not look 'factory-made'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    No drain pans protecting the wood support platform and I'll bet there was no electrical bonding jumpers either? As I've said far to many times before a residential water heater is probably the richest appliance in reportable defects.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle Smith View Post
    Some heat exchangers vent from the bottom of the tank. However I've only seen this in condensing units. Not sure how this could work without a power vent.

    Kyle,
    You can only vent exhaust gases from the bottom of a vertical heater if you have a power vent (fan forced) draft, since a natural draft requires the heat to travel upward through the water heat exchanger tube. The fan can be in the vent pipe (induced) or in the combustion air inlet (forced), but this has neither. So it would be a natural draft direct vent.

    See drawing on page 38 for the heater style in the OP's photo. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=what+is+direct+vent+water+heater& source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww .bradfordwhite.com%2Fimages%2Fshared%2Fpdfs%2Fmanu als%2F238-42498-00K.pdf&ei=fOUvT_2gEsKA2wWF3OnUAw&usg=AFQjCNGDQU55 51JldQg312p1s6a3jj70vg&sig2=y0SsMLbVakesOF3wMhQxcQ

    Last edited by Scott Cook; 02-07-2012 at 07:26 AM. Reason: clarification

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    No drain pans protecting the wood support platform and I'll bet there was no electrical bonding jumpers either? As I've said far to many times before a residential water heater is probably the richest appliance in reportable defects.
    Jerry, how many people are living in that finished space below the water heater? And if that red thing is PEX I can't see how a bonding jumper would protect anyone.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Take another good look Vern. That red whatever I'm sure is not Pex piping and the gas supply piping sure looks like plain old metal???? so.......................

    Oh ya, one of the two water heaters eventually leaks, rots the wood platform, the weight of 2 water heaters collapses the platform, the gas lines tear lose, bla, bla, bla....

    And one more thing, the water heater on the right side of the photo was installed so one cannot read the lighting & shut-down labels, or maybe even access the burner or pilot controls?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Take another good look Vern. That red whatever I'm sure is not Pex piping and the gas supply piping sure looks like plain old metal???? so.......................

    Oh ya, one of the two water heaters eventually leaks, rots the wood platform, the weight of 2 water heaters collapses the platform, the gas lines tear lose, bla, bla, bla....

    And one more thing, the water heater on the right side of the photo was installed so one cannot read the lighting & shut-down labels, or maybe even access the burner or pilot controls?
    The red whatever may not be PEX, but can you tell if the water pipe is or is not by the picture? Did not know gas pipe needed to have bond jumper . If one of the water heaters leaks long enough to rot the wood to the point it collapses, the resident has bigger problems with vision loss. I can't tell how far the water heater is from the wall or exactly where the labels are, might be wrong, but I was not asking about that.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Did not know gas pipe needed to have bond jumper
    I have see them bonded and grounded outside a home. They sometimes use the service equipment enclosure and a ground rod because the gas service was in a non metallic pipe and converted to a metal pipe after the meter.
    Vern, if you think about it, even with PEX water piping---a powered vent WH, electronic starters, furnace, dryer, stove, AC is near the conducting gas pipe. Should the water heater or a pipe become live, someone could get hurt as well as a possible explosion. It's important that the metalic gas piping be bonded and grounded. I believe this was discussed in detail, and the reasons why a thread a while back.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I have see them bonded and grounded outside a home. They sometimes use the service equipment enclosure and a ground rod because the gas service was in a non metallic pipe and converted to a metal pipe after the meter.
    Vern, if you think about it, even with PEX water piping---a powered vent WH, electronic starters, furnace, dryer, stove, AC is near the conducting gas pipe. Should the water heater or a pipe become live, someone could get hurt as well as a possible explosion. It's important that the metalic gas piping be bonded and grounded. I believe this was discussed in detail, and the reasons why a thread a while back.
    Rich, could you show me 3 or 4 pictures of gas water heaters with a bonding wire tied to the gas pipe at the water heater?

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Be careful what you ask for Vern......................
    2008 NEC 250.104 (B)

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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Rich, could you show me 3 or 4 pictures of gas water heaters with a bonding wire tied to the gas pipe at the water heater?
    Vern, don't have any pictures, but you could check in the NFPA 54: National Fuel Gas Code, Chapter 7, Electrical Bonding & Grounding, or you are interested in the plastic covered metalic tubing you could DL the WardFlex Installation Guide at WARDFLEX STEPSAVER. (WARDFLEX STEPSAVER) Both sources should answer any questions that you may have on bonding and grounding gas service. I think there may be some people here may have some pictures.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Be careful what you ask for Vern......................
    2008 NEC 250.104 (B)
    Why? You only provided one!

    Last edited by Vern Heiler; 02-07-2012 at 04:44 PM. Reason: My mistake, there is one.
    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Vern, don't have any pictures, but you could check in the NFPA 54: National Fuel Gas Code, Chapter 7, Electrical Bonding & Grounding, or you are interested in the plastic covered metalic tubing you could DL the WardFlex Installation Guide at WARDFLEX STEPSAVER. (WARDFLEX STEPSAVER) Both sources should answer any questions that you may have on bonding and grounding gas service. I think there may be some people here may have some pictures.
    If it is required to have a grounded wire tied to the gas line at the water heater, you should have hundreds of pictures. I am sure I have over a thousand that don't have a bond wire at that location.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Page 56; Under line is mine.
    "WARDFLEX
    CSST installed inside or attached to the exterior of a building or structure shall be
    electrically continuous and directly bonded, by a qualified person, to the ground system of the building.
    The gas piping is considered to be directly bonded when installed in accordance with the following instructions:

    A bonding jumper is permanently and directly connected to the electrical service grounding system.
    This can be achieved through a connection to the electrical service equipment enclosure, the grounded
    conductor at the electrical service, the grounding electrode conductor (where of sufficient size) or to the one or
    more grounding electrodes used.
    A single bond connection is made to the building gas piping downstream of the utility meter or second stage
    regulator (LP systems), but near the gas service entrance (either outdoors or indoors) of the structure, or dow
    stream of the gas meter of each individual housing unit within a multi-family structure."

    There was no picture of this area in the OP.


    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    If it is required to have a grounded wire tied to the gas line at the water heater,
    Vern,


    Careful of your choice of wording there ... the "grounded" conductor *should not be bonded to anything* after the service equipment, and the only thing the "grounded" conductor is bonded to at the service equipment is the "grounding" conductor, either at a terminal or through a bonding jumper tying the neutral terminal bar to the enclosure, which is then tied to the grounding conductor.

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    No drain pans protecting the wood support platform and I'll bet there was no electrical bonding jumpers either? As I've said far to many times before a residential water heater is probably the richest appliance in reportable defects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry, how many people are living in that finished space below the water heater? And if that red thing is PEX I can't see how a bonding jumper would protect anyone.
    Vern,

    Why does it matter "how many people are living in that finished space below the water heater"?

    From the IRC: (bold and underlining is mine)
    - P2801.5 Required pan. Where water heaters or hotwater storage tanks are installed in locations where leakage of the tanks or connections will cause damage, the tank or water heater shall be installed in a galvanized steel pan having a minimum thickness of 24 gage (0.016 inch) (0.4 mm) or other pans for such use. Listed pans shall comply with CSA LC3.

    There is no reference to being above living space in there.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Vern,

    Why does it matter "how many people are living in that finished space below the water heater"?

    From the IRC: (bold and underlining is mine)
    - P2801.5 Required pan. Where water heaters or hotwater storage tanks are installed in locations where leakage of the tanks or connections will cause damage, the tank or water heater shall be installed in a galvanized steel pan having a minimum thickness of 24 gage (0.016 inch) (0.4 mm) or other pans for such use. Listed pans shall comply with CSA LC3.

    There is no reference to being above living space in there.
    Jerry, I think Vern had his toast burn this morning, so.....


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Rich, you're right. The building codes are the bible that governs our industry and we need to know and thoroughly understand them and those that ignore, reject or do not understand them occupy their own bubble of rejection (ignorance) and will eventually suffer the consequences.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    How about the T&P drain pipes and no seismic straps.


  32. #32
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    That is a direct vent water heater. It has its own air supply brought in from either outside of the confined space or directly from outside the home. They are used primarily in a confined space where adequate combustion air is not available. They are also used in highly energy efficient homes where air infiltration can be of concern.

    http://www.bradfordwhite.com/images/..._dv_1004_a.pdf

    Last edited by Travis Lea; 03-05-2012 at 06:07 AM. Reason: link added

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Water Heater Attachment

    Hi
    I agree with you Jerry.


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