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  1. #1
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    Default frost and severe moisture in attic

    hey all

    east west facing home--one year old super roof covering , but when i got in attic, found heavy frost on both east and west side of roof, and water dripping from nails and h clips. moisture meter on sheathing pegged out , steam room on second floor had no bulb and rusted lugs and many ceiling can lights. only had four upper roof vents and no other. ran steam shower for 30 minutes and did not see any leakage into attic --but not satified. had roofer come in and ne said what i thought --improper ventilation and that could help but what about the water damage to sheathing and rafters--he stated roof needs replacing.
    owner called me after buyer shared inspection report , she was very nice but confused. her roofer said great roof with proper ventilation and city inspector passed roof. she then sent my attached pictures to roofer and as of this time has nort heard back from him. city inspector checking roof in attic
    i don,t know. do they ever maybe a good one does.

    buyer asked for new roof, as the roofer i brought in suggested. and he is someone i trust.

    look at pictures and what do you think

    cvf

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    i would be asking for a building science engineer to determine the cause and need for repair, not a roofer, installing a new roof even with added vents would be a guestimate at best and could allow the same problem or create high energy loss.
    from the photos, i did not see failure of the osb or huge amounts of mold.
    obviously heat is being pulled into the attic from the home.
    where is it coming from?


  3. #3
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    wayne

    there is not any mold like substance now--but this is only a year old roof. does sheathing when wet like this just dry out ?

    i don,t think so --the venting is inadequate and needs fixing--but will that dry out the sheathing and prevent any sheathing damage and mold build up--i will let the experts determine that--calld in an outside roofer and he thinks it is a redo
    --have you ever seen a city inspector go into attic --just saying and maybe he did in summer--there is no seconadary roof venting here

    believe i did my job

    cvf

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    It's usually much worse when I see it here. I don't know what a new roof is going to do for the situation. I don't think the two are related, in my opinion. If there is mold, it's going to be on the under side of the roof decking. Are the soffit vents blocked? They usually are here, which leads to that situation.

    I would focus on decreasing infiltration from the house into the attic, and increasing ventilation inside the attic. The bath exhaust fans are present and exhausting to the outside, hopefully?

    What is a "super roof"? Maybe that is part of the question that I don't understand.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    jim

    read my early post only roof vents

    cvf


  6. #6
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Ventilation is symptom treatment, not cause/source removal.

    Moisture is neither created nor destroyed. It can change state.

    If moisture didn't make it into the attic, it wouldn't need to be removed. That house has thermal bypasses and I'd bet a humidifier that runs flat out irrespective of outdoor temps.

    Do a search on stack effect. Then PSYCHROMETRIC chart. Then imagine continuously blowing "steamy" air at that roof deck.

    A blower door test will show a leaky house. Not the roofers responsibility to air seal the attic I suspect. Sometimes increasing ventilation makes the problem worse, you supply MORE moist air to roof deck. Spend money fixing leaks, not replacing a roof that's not yet broken.

    Last edited by ted kidd; 01-18-2013 at 09:49 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Charlie

    1. Check for vapour barrier, damaged or missing.
    2. Penetrations into attic from (pot lights as you found) plumbing stacks, ceiling light fixtures, exhaust fan housings, non sealed and non insulated attic hatch, exhaust not venting to exterior.
    3. Non use of kitchen exhaust, dryer venting to interior, hanging laundry inside to dry.
    4. Plants, animals, aquariums, occupant load, cooking, showering, et cetera.
    5. Inadequate soffit vent and roof vents and no baffles installed at eaves.
    6. Inadequate insulation.
    7. Wet basement, dirt floor crawlspace.

    The issue manifesting themselves in the conditioned space of the attic and migrating into the attic.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET
    east west facing home--one year old super roof covering , but when i got in attic, found heavy frost on both east and west side of roof, and water dripping from nails and h clips. moisture meter on sheathing pegged out , steam room on second floor had no bulb and rusted lugs and many ceiling can lights. only had four upper roof vents and no other. ran steam shower for 30 minutes and did not see any leakage into attic --but not satisfied.
    Charlie,

    A steam room would add significant moisture to the home and into the attic. From photos it looks like you could get thermal conductivity through the metal parts of the roofing components, (clips, nails) A review of the "Super Roof" details, vapor barrier and insulation protection and an evaluation of the ventilation systems is in order. I suggest an independent review from non-contractor type professional, could be environmental or energy engineer depending on their experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd
    Sometimes increasing ventilation makes the problem worse, you supply MORE moist air to roof deck. Spend money fixing leaks, not replacing a roof that's not yet broken.
    Ted,
    I've never seen where more ventilation in the attic presents a problem?

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    One of those pictures did show pretty saturated OSB. That could be either or, large amounts of moisture coming from the home or a possible roof leak.

    As far as no soffit vents? The roof vents need to have an intake somewhere or it will be pulling through the ceilings and any other openings a whole lot more. Improper or no venting in the steam room directly to the exterior will make a serious amount of moisture into not only the home but the attic.

    A thorough home inspection could have very well found the cause and Charlie already named a few. As far as the OSB getting wet? It will dry out when the problems for getting wet are resolved. The only reason to replace portions would be if it swelled repeatedly and broken down and has weakened and or mold but mold goes away as well when the concern is resolved.

    Building engineer? We are Building inspectors. We take classes and courses on these things all the time. In most cases we should be able to point to the root causes. If it turned out that the sources from what are happening cannot be determined then call in or should I say have the buyer call in the appropriate measures to determine the cause.

    Are there gas fired systems in the home....oh well Raymond and others named several. As far as a new roof? Maybe a roof repair if it is leaking or if they just did a horrible job all over and poor flashing everywhere. I have seen extremely few new roofs that needed a complete replacement. I just reinspected a very large home with Spanish tiles. This home had four small leaks. Replace? I don't think that would be a wise call at all. I looked from the ground and could actually see exactly where three of the leaks were coming from. A plumbing vent, walls meeting roof in 2 places and a vent coming from a water heater that I could not see from the ground. All that and multiple other items were found and noted on the reinspect. . With garages 9200 sq ft. It took me an hour and a half to do the reinspect and that was a lot of talk about the home mixed in. Engineers always needed? No! Are they needed sometimes? Sure.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Amelin View Post

    Ted,
    I've never seen where more ventilation in the attic presents a problem?
    Keep your E&O paid up. If you recommend more attic ventilation, might increase your limits. Small children, elderly, and infirm are the ones you'll kill first. Feeling queasy yet?

    More ventilation can kill people who have combustion appliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys via draft hoods. it increases basement depressurization and encourages drafting through the house rather than the chimney.

    On the moisture side. Imagine the house at 70f/45rh with 30 odt as a giant sponge, any air leaving, typically moving upward driven by stack pressure, is also being squeezed of moisture as it cools. This squeezing is condensation occurring as air loses the energy to carry water in vapor form.

    If you make it easier for this air to leave, do you think you are likely to get more, or less of it? will that mean more water, or less water?

    You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures? Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removing moisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    dont know why these pictures didnt post--well here they are

    by super roof i mean great wind resistant shingles

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    pictures are not being nice

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic


    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kidd
    Keep your E&O paid up.If you recommend more attic ventilation, might increase your limits. Smallchildren, elderly, and infirm are the ones you'll kill first. Feeling queasyyet?.


    Ted,

    An interesting response to say the least, butI remain convinced that I have never seen a condition where too muchventilation in the ATTIC space was a problem.

    Also, I don’t agree with your arguments. There are many issues of which I have commented on:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kidd
    More ventilation can kill people who have combustionappliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys via draft hoods. itincreases basement depressurization and encourages drafting through the houserather than the chimney.


    We’re talking about attic space. Aventilated attic should be isolated from the controlled environment withceilings, insulation and sealed vapor barrier. (Reference IRC Energy Code TableR402.4.1.1) The air in the attic and the air in the living space is required tobe isolated from each other. Attic ventilation does not encourage draftingthrough the occupied space.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kidd
    On the moisture side.Imagine the house at 70f/45rh with 30 odt as a giant sponge, any air leaving,typically moving upward driven by stack pressure, is also being squeezed ofmoisture as it cools. This squeezing is condensation occurring as air loses theenergy to carry water in vapor form.


    The purpose of ventilation air in the atticis to achieve a minimum temperature and vapor pressure differential as comparedto o.a.t. The closer to OA conditions thebetter. Reduced temperature and moisture differential eliminates condensationand ice dam problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kidd
    If you make it easier for this air to leave, do you think youare likely to get more, or less of it? will that mean more water, or lesswater?


    The purpose of the ventilation is topromote free communication between the attic and outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kidd
    You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures?Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removingmoisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place.


    This statement is confusing and fragmented.No further comment.


    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    So our jobs are different. You observe and report, I test, measure, diagnose, and recommend improvements and repairs. So orientation is clearly going to be very different. I enjoy learning from professions with different orientation, broadens my perspective. You are welcome to disregard the orientation of my perspective and continue with your blinders firmly in place.

    That you have never witnessed a thing, or not recognized what you are witnessing, is your argument for holding dogmatically to your beliefs? "this is how we've always dun er.". That cup of learning looks to have no room for anything new.

    "more" ventilation in attics to manage moisture is treatment. sure this is henpecked on iPad, but indecipherable?

    Vapor barriers are continuous and unbroken? You have a blower door? Ever seen a house leak? Ever read anything about building science? The presumption penetrations to an attic are air sealed, or that insulation is an air sealing measure are really concerning, you put such assumptions in your reports? What dream world are you living in?

    You might want to make friends with someone with BPI certifications and a blower door...

    Relying on a tiny bit of natural ventilation to overcome common deficiencies at thermal and air boundaries is the cause of the problem with this, and most enclosures.

    And ignore my comment about killing people at your own peril.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Ted,
    Have to agree with Ken.
    To much natural ventilation is not ever a problem when dealing with attic ventilation. There does become a point where it is adequate for the space and additional does not accomplish much (diminishing returns for efforts).

    Now if you mechanically ventilate it is possible to create a differential pressure gradient that you will be actively drawing air from the interior of the structure.

    Ken,
    Referencing E&O I would take as going beyond the coverage when specif remediation is offered.

    I think Ted was saying that it is better to find the cause of a problem rather than just treat the effects. "You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures?"""

    Charlie,
    There has to be a source of the moisture. Weather it is a stand alone humidifier, furnace humidifier, basement or etc there has to be a source. The seller may not be telling the entire truth about what has been going on in the house. Need to put on your detective hat.

    I put a new roof (rafters up) for my Mother-inlaw. Weather temp changed and heat came on , FHA and set at 80. Received a call from her with exact same thing taking place. She called saying that the roof was leaking. Odd thing was it had not rained. Found out that she had a new (big) humidifier and was running at the max 24/7. But when first asked she was doing anything different that the previous year she replied "no". Old house with poor insulation and a screwy owner (her). Choice was to either make extensive (costly) changes to the design of the structure or to just reduce the humidifier and the heat setting. She did latter with successful outcome.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    What is different about this place?
    The source is on all likelihood the steam shower in a room full of pot lights.
    On top of that, inadequate soffit ventilation, and maybe inadequate ridge vents.
    Fix the leaks in the ceiling, and install soffit vents with enough vents at the ridge to move bad air out.

    Re: the wet OSB.
    If it was my home, I would try the above first with a plan to revisit the attic to see if the OSB dries out. They should be prepared to deal with mold if the wood doesn't dry out completely. Whether the OSB fibers can dry out completely depends on creating a dry enough environment in that attic, and maybe that would entail bringing in some temporary electric heat.

    That is why replacement for the new owners would make them the happiest, IMO.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Garry

    house was a flipper, no one has lived in it for year while remodeling, no humidifier and furnace running at 68 degrees, many canned lights on second floor and then the steam room, which seller said has not been used often. the canned light in steam room was not properly sealed and when i looked inside ,rusty lugs. the one year old roof exterior was in great shape, then came the attic inspection. four eight inch roof vents but with 5 inch cut out on sheathing and all the wet sheathing ,dripping nails and h clips and inch thick frost, now the temperture outside prior to inspection reached 5 below at night and daily highs of 17 for week prior, starting to think that along with only one high vent sourse in attic a gabl vent would help. but what do you do with all the wet sheathing ??

    see house photo below

    cvf

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    Garry
    starting to think that along with only one high vent sourse in attic a gabl vent would help. but what do you do with all the wet sheathing ??
    cvf
    I think you'd have better luck with soffit vents along the eaves. Baffles will help to make it a little more idiot proof, so that they don't just block them again. Is there an exhaust fan for the steam room? That's a big part of the equation. I see this a lot here with a similar climate pattern to your area. My usual recommendation is to decrease moisture infiltration from the house into the attic, and to increase the attic ventilation. Gable vents will help and may be enough if the moisture issue from below is addressed.

    The moisture will dry out when temperatures rise, IF there is adequate ventilation. Hopefully it hasn't been wet long enough to lead to mold, but that's exactly where the situation is headed.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    It's clearly a moisture issue, not a roof issue. They'll have to find the source of moisture and fix that first. Typically and most obvious is shower steam vent or clothes dryer vent. But can be much more obscure such as high indoor pressure and capillary movement.

    When "functional" is not good enough, Call Final Analysis Home Inspections, Virginia Beach VA

  20. #20
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Charlie,
    No humidifier, not even on the furnace or duct/plenum. OK.
    Steam bath not used. OK

    Flipper, When was the interior painted?
    Thinking is, if the house interior was painted that the amount of moisture given off by 15 gal of paint might do it.

    As far as the OSB and it being wet, it really boils down to how long the OSB has been wet and its condition. The OSB will start to expand and self destruct if saturated. Or the OSB will dry off and not much of a problem. As a buyer advocate I would allow for potential problems down the road. Osb flakes, nails do not hold, shingled blow off. When new roof goes on years later have to replace OSB then since nails will not hold. Then there is the factor of the soft deck alows the shingled to flex and reduces life of the shingle. Then to repair one section/area you end up replacing the entire roof. Since you can't separate shingles. Or you replace sections of the OSB and then fill in and do a roofover. Any scenario with OSB you will have problems down the road. So I would off set my offer to reflect my expected costs for loss of roof life and additional cost that will be incurred.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd View Post
    So our jobs are different. You observe and report, I test, measure, diagnose, and recommend improvements and repairs. So orientation is clearly going to be very different. I enjoy learning from professions with different orientation, broadens my perspective. You are welcome to disregard the orientation of my perspective and continue with your blinders firmly in place.

    That you have never witnessed a thing, or not recognized what you are witnessing, is your argument for holding dogmatically to your beliefs? "this is how we've always dun er.". That cup of learning looks to have no room for anything new.

    "more" ventilation in attics to manage moisture is treatment. sure this is henpecked on iPad, but indecipherable?

    Vapor barriers are continuous and unbroken? You have a blower door? Ever seen a house leak? Ever read anything about building science? The presumption penetrations to an attic are air sealed, or that insulation is an air sealing measure are really concerning, you put such assumptions in your reports? What dream world are you living in?

    You might want to make friends with someone with BPI certifications and a blower door...

    Relying on a tiny bit of natural ventilation to overcome common deficiencies at thermal and air boundaries is the cause of the problem with this, and most enclosures.

    And ignore my comment about killing people at your own peril.
    Energy auditor

    OK

    Building science? A vast amount of home inspectors on this forum have taken hundreds of hours over time on all you listed on LinkedIn.

    Now. I am not getting down on you but the entire envelope of the home and everything in and around it is certainly no mystery to the vast amount of inspectors on this site. You talk to the group as a bunch of idiots like they have no clue on what is going on in the home. Most have so much more experience than you in the entire envelope and systems than you may ever have. Again, not beating on you because you do have experience and know how to use it.

    Give respect where respect is due.

    "Keep your E&O paid up. If you recommend more attic ventilation, might increase your limits. Small children, elderly, and infirm are the ones you'll kill first. Feeling queasy yet?"

    Seriously? You need to tone it down a bit.

    The home is leaking.

    The soffits not only have no vents but you can clearly see by the pictures that the insulation is blown tight to the edge so even if there was proper ventilation it would be blocked off.

    Just as in any of our observations in both visual and written notes by the original post and further posts by that individual we are stating what we see and understand in writing what is possibly going on. Suggestions made by any on here and you for that matter no matter what the training is speculation at best as we were not at the home.

    The home is leaking. Large amount of moisture are being pumped into the home by one source or another. The moisture has made it to the attic.

    Get a grip. The moisture needs a place to go until the home is sealed up and the moisture is not longer an issue going into the attic. The inside of the home needs proper ventilation as well as the attic and the best way to handle it is with adequate ventilation for the time being and the rest addressed when one can afford to delve deeper into the situation and one had the money for repairs.

    Start with the minimum at the least ventilation that any home should have for now. That will alleviate the vast quantities of moisture damaging the attic and home at this time and is the least expensive route to go. It needs to be done now. All other steps are exactly that, steps.

    Kill the folks by adding at the very least minimaly efficient ventilation to stop immediate damage while other areas are investigated for proper repairs. That is what needs to happen and happen now or they will be replacing the entire roof as well as mold build up and making a dangerous situation in the home.

    But of course you want to jump in immediately with chest thrown out in front of you saying....Stop, you are going to kill everyone. I suggest you call one of your to die for buddies in the energy audit business that may be from Charlies area and pass the name off to Charlie. That would be a good step to take. He can pass it off to the buyer or seller for that matter since it is not even the buyers home yet. You just cannot go gunning into a situation when it is not the persons home you are inspecting. Name a bunch of possible causes for such situations that are in fact part if not all of the problem and turn it over to the next party inline. They go in and give dollar figures agreeing with some or all of the inspectors diagnosis and put a plan together for full repair.

    What exactly was it you said? Oh, I know.

    " What dream world are you living in"

    Blower door test? Yes, leaking, windows, steam rooms and no ventilation , ceiling penetrations, poorly weather stripped doors, attic access points leaking like hell, flues leaking into home etc etc etc etc etc. We get it.

    The first and foremost obvious point one can see just by the pictures and written comment????

    Crappy and extremely inadequate attic ventilation. It does not even have the extreme minimum any home should have.....Bingo!!!!!!

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 01-20-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Humidity from the house is migrating into the attic. It doesn't look like there are no soffit vents so if there are none, there is no low end ventilation. With humid air being heavier than dry air, the humid air collects in the lower section of the attic. Soffit vents and increasing the amount of ventilation in the upper areas/peak of the roof will promote good air flow and ventilation.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    ... With humid air being heavier than dry air, ....

    I don't think so.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Replacing deck & roof without remediating original design and execution problem, bridging, now exasperated by typical flipper and drive-by "inspections" even if there were permits pulled.

    >>>Cut the forest giant conifer down - get it off the house/roof!<<<

    Typical LOW slope Colo crud wrong for tabs!. Ice & watershield throughout field doubtful, xtra sealing unlikely! Faulty blocking and bypass likely, doubtful perm barrier. Thermal bridging, no ventilation. Note roof nails to plastic box & unprotected NM! Blocked eaves decking seam too close to wall, frosted at the even steeper daming zone! Insulation packed up to truss chords and the roof deck! NO air, simply created mini-climate with DEW POINT & wicking. No thermal break between wall plate, insulation, rafters and decking - no air cushion, no chutes! Turn off the heater (unsheilded lamp/bulb) and write the heck out of it, nothing super about these conditions, no air flow, no cold-air cushion, no thermal break where it counts. No surprise its wet & frozen, even if there's no significant bypass sources - there is no thermal break.

    Shifting loose mineral/fiberglass classic "hiding - see no evil" , constant prevailing winds, classic flipper tactics. The insulation saturated. HOLDS moisture like a SPONGE, wood wicks the moisture, terarium mini-climate continues the cycle winter, spring, summer, fall.

    Likely nothing for ventillation but typical non-functional gable "vents" when the soffit/eave overhangs were closed off to avoid squirrels, rats, bats, and misquided installation (cart before horse) of insulation.

    Further suspect second-story prior addition.







    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-20-2013 at 03:07 PM.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    HG

    are you ok tonight --say what

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post

    -------owner ....... she was very nice but confused. her roofer said great roof with proper ventilation and city inspector passed roof.
    -------she then sent my attached pictures to roofer and as of this time has nort heard ....

    -----buyer asked for new roof, as the roofer i brought in suggested. and he is someone i trust.

    cvf
    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post

    -------there is not any mold like substance now--but this is only a year old roof. does sheathing when wet like this just dry out ?

    ---------the venting is inadequate and needs fixing--`t--calld in an outside roofer and he thinks it is a redo
    --have you ever seen a city inspector go into attic --just saying and maybe he did in summer--there is no seconadary roof venting here,,,,,

    cvf
    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    Garry

    ----house was a flipper, no one has lived in it for year while remodeling, .........
    ----many canned lights on second floor and then the steam room, which seller said has not been used often. ............
    the one year old roof exterior was in great shape, ............
    ----four eight inch roof vents but with 5 inch cut out on sheathing and all the wet sheathing ,dripping nails and h clips and inch thick frost, ...........
    ----starting to think that along with only one high vent sourse in attic a gabl vent would help. but what do you do with all the wet sheathing ??

    cvf

    Charlie,
    Looked back over your posts and did some consolidation, hope you don’t mind.
    I have some thoughts based on the information you have given. A lot of extrapolation.
    --Sounds like the owner is the flipper and does not know much about construction. Also, she may have been relying on the roof installer for installing/correcting the original roof. Maybe not.
    ---The owner /flipper does not know history of the property.
    --The roof is 1 year old, so moisture issue has not had along time to develop into noticeable problems.
    ---The OSB looks new (no signs of old nailing nails or holes), which leads me to believe that it was replaced because the original was rotten/bad/moldy in most of the roof. With that in mind, I would believe that the moisture problem has been present for many years .
    --- The roofer put in some ventilation, but not enough. Roofer may have suggested opening up the soffits and installing ventilation but the added cost caused that to be rejected by flipper/owner. Or flipper took the lowest bid (more than likely scenario) and it did not have the extra work as part of the contract (get in and get out mentality).
    ---If permits and inspected, well that is the way it goes. Does not make it correct just acceptable by the city for what ever that is worth. Since there is little to no recourse to have city stand behind its own inspections. Although there have been a few that were successful, but they were large dollar jobs and government funded
    --- Your roofer says a redo, probably since getting to the soffits and installing baffles is a logistical problem with the subroof on (OSB). So by redoing the roofer is able to be certain that there is no bad OSB and has better access to make alterations. Also, he would be able to stand behind the work and hopefully still in business.
    --- The gable end venting would be a last resort since it may just not be enough if there is a history of excess humidity, which is a high probability.
    ---From the pictures the roof pitch is not the problem, although with the snow that CO has it would do better with a higher pitch. But that is not going to be changed now. I am sure there are many house built with the same pitch and have no problems…
    ---It may be possible that the ice shown is the result of “ice damning” and the lack “ice and damn shield missing”. Unless you tear off some of the shingle you will not know for sure.
    ---- The reason that the owner/flipper is confused is that there is a language/translation issue between her and her roofer. Yo no habla ventilación.



    Bottom line problem is 2 fold. 1) Not enough ventilation, 2) excess moisture.
    Even if there were only normal humidity being generated from the structure there still is need of greater ventilation of the best design that can be installed.


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    Thumbs down Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd View Post
    Keep your E&O paid up. If you recommend more attic ventilation, might increase your limits. Small children, elderly, and infirm are the ones you'll kill first. Feeling queasy yet?

    More ventilation can kill people who have combustion appliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys via draft hoods. it increases basement depressurization and encourages drafting through the house rather than the chimney.

    On the moisture side. Imagine the house at 70f/45rh with 30 odt as a giant sponge, any air leaving, typically moving upward driven by stack pressure, is also being squeezed of moisture as it cools. This squeezing is condensation occurring as air loses the energy to carry water in vapor form.

    If you make it easier for this air to leave, do you think you are likely to get more, or less of it? will that mean more water, or less water?

    You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures? Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removing moisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place.
    Ted,
    Your death scenario is interesting as it relates to ventilation. Saying "More ventilation can kill people who have combustion appliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys via draft hoods" Can not argue with combustion appliances that are disconnected from the chimney. The correlation with is a little twisted. Being disconnected is hazardous in itself. You mix things well to dramatize your position on ventilation, but I think offer a false argument as logical support.

    You state "Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removing moisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place."

    ?? What do you mean by uncontrolled ventilation ?
    Is it that you look at controlling the seal of a structure and its designed ventilation to remove moisture as part of the control of the air exchange in the sealed structure? Or is it something else?

    Also, the position that moisture shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place is not a realistic position. It may be a true theoretical position which seems where you position yourself. It has only been in in recent constriction history that making the interior envelope of the structure totally sealed has come to be practiced. So in the real world it does not happen, not without great expense. So is your view and comments just theoretical ?


  28. #28
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Ted,
    Your death scenario is interesting as it relates to ventilation. Saying "More ventilation can kill people who have combustion appliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys via draft hoods" Can not argue with combustion appliances that are disconnected from the chimney. The correlation with is a little twisted. Being disconnected is hazardous in itself. You mix things well to dramatize your position on ventilation, but I think offer a false argument as logical support.

    You state "Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removing moisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place."

    ?? What do you mean by uncontrolled ventilation ?
    Is it that you look at controlling the seal of a structure and its designed ventilation to remove moisture as part of the control of the air exchange in the sealed structure? Or is it something else?

    Also, the position that moisture shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place is not a realistic position. It may be a true theoretical position which seems where you position yourself. It has only been in in recent constriction history that making the interior envelope of the structure totally sealed has come to be practiced. So in the real world it does not happen, not without great expense. So is your view and comments just theoretical ?
    No

    His idea is he is the only one that knows anything and the rest of us are just ignorant to thought and expertise. Well, I am just an ignorant home inspector so what do I know. He probably is the only one that is not clueless.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 01-21-2013 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    I don't think so.
    You are correct Rick. Thanks for expanding on that while you were at it.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 01-21-2013 at 01:43 PM.
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    You are correct Rick. Thanks for expanding on that while you were at it.
    I suppose I could have said more
    I did not want to sound critical of you
    My thought was, A nudge and not a push.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    ok all

    here is what was found by roofer who installed roof and energy auditor. when new roof was put on nobody re-attached the two fire place to the exterior--open in attic. i could not reach the master bedroom side of attic because of low over head and rafters at inspection. old roofwer said osb is ok and will dry out, hope he will put it in writing--energy guy sain he recommends gable vents be added. and seller is having outside roofer come in and evaluate if osb is alright.

    feel i did my job, and took care of my client, sometimes you wish you could get everywhere in a house, but you can,t, if only i was 5'5 and not 6'3--i could slither better.

    problem solved solution waiting

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    I suppose I could have said more
    I did not want to sound critical of you
    My thought was, A nudge and not a push.
    If I'm wrong, I can accept that and learn from it. No biggy.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    ok all

    here is what was found by roofer who installed roof and energy auditor. when new roof was put on nobody re-attached the two fire place to the exterior--open in attic. i could not reach the master bedroom side of attic because of low over head and rafters at inspection. old roofwer said osb is ok and will dry out, hope he will put it in writing--energy guy sain he recommends gable vents be added. and seller is having outside roofer come in and evaluate if osb is alright.

    feel i did my job, and took care of my client, sometimes you wish you could get everywhere in a house, but you can,t, if only i was 5'5 and not 6'3--i could slither better.

    problem solved solution waiting

    cvf
    I would not have much confidence in roofer for opinion on OSB when he failed to reconnect fireplaces.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    FURTHER UPDATE

    ok just heard it was not the fireplace vents, but the furnace vent, no wonder the HI in august didn't see anything. roofer who put roof on said he doesn't know how it was not connected--energy guy said it happened at roof install. outside roofer said roof sheathing will dry out--it is ok. mold guy said he needs to do work up there--not cheap. seller asked what to do--i told her get her insurance company out--roofer should pay for repairs--and get IT WRITING THAT ROOF IS OK FROM ALL INVOVED.

    --it is always good when the seller calls you and says good job--count them on one hand

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    you know lucky no one was living in that house for the winter months--or we might of had a corpse--inspection temperture was -5 to 10 above

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rogers View Post
    It's clearly a moisture issue, not a roof issue. They'll have to find the source of moisture and fix that first. Typically and most obvious is shower steam vent or clothes dryer vent. But can be much more obscure such as high .
    I'd say typically and most obvious would be gas fired appliances and no visible roof vents.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    I was thinking along the same lines. I'm hoping that the vent on the roof was present, but it was disconnected between the roof and the furnace. If two different people walked the roof and didn't take not that there was not furnace vent that would be bad. Maybe there was too much snow and the roof wasn't walked on.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    JIM

    disconnected in attic

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    To many new roofs Jobs leave vent pipes disturbed and or disconnected. They don't even check after they do the roof over.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Has any scanned the attic space with an infrared camera to look for areas of heat loss?


  41. #41

    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Excessive indoor moisture problems on buildings are often difficult to diagnose and cure, largely because although the physics of moisture vapor transmission, air flow, and dew points is well known (but complicated), the movement of moisture in buildings is often complicated and not obvious unless invasive measures are used.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    tom

    unless the roofer doesn't reconnect the furnace vent to exterior,

    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    hey all

    ......only had four upper roof vents and no other. ....


    cvf

    Charlie,
    We all failed this test. We all should have picked up on "roof vents and no other.".

    The answer was there and no one picked up on it. This demonstrated that to often we look for a complicated or convoluted cause to a problem. I think we all assumed that everything that had a vent of some kind was actually vented through he roof and connected. Like taking any test you should take the facts as presented and not read anything into the statement presented..... Old comment about assumed--- ASS out of U and ME...

    This was a truly learning thread if not humbling. Ist and foremost keep it simple stupid "KISS".


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    The insulation will need to be removed for the area to be dried out. Spun wool and fiberglass will hold moisture like a sponge and mold growth is likely.There is likely saturation under any paper or perm layer under same. Gyp board ceiling below likely wet attic-side.The tree needs to be trimmed off the first story roof and away from the home.The complicated roof is not ventillated properly.The wet cardbord also needs to be removed.Thermal breaks and insulation chutes should be installed for venting from the eaves or eybrow vents. You do NOT want air flow under and through the loose spun insulation.Need insulation for hatch preventing air flow.Remove and replace those defective can lights in the steam shower room with correct IC/AT and wet duty (steam room is a wet loction - subject to condensation/saturation. Insulate and thermal break between same and attic.Broken or disconnected bvent not visualized while inspecting in attic space from hatch?

    Don't include anyone other than yourself in your "we all missed" statements.

    When I posted it was after others suggested exactly that (lack of venting and ducting to the exterior) see Raymond Wand's post (post 7) with ordered list #2, and middle of his #3, for example. Daniel Rogers similarly suggests finding the source at Post 19.

    New roof replacement installations and "upward" additions (and in this case decking new too) are notorious for failures to properly transition or connect (reconnect) venting and ducting to the exterior.

    The common flipper and DIYer in colorado action of blocking or over restricting eaves or soffit vents to prevent entry of critters (bats, squirrels, etc.). and insulating over same - and noted insulation packed up aganst roof decking - eliminating any thermal break. Somewhat understandable with the PLAGUE outbreaks in the squirrel population, hanta carried by mice, rats, etc. and well, the bats...rabbies concerns, fungus with the droppings, just as with birds...best intentions can backfire in just the manner visualized even without a disconnected b-vent emptying in a small, short, unhabital attic space.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-26-2013 at 09:29 PM.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    HG,
    Just being obtuse, please show me where someone asked the simple and obvious question; was the furnace vented through the roof ? Or, was the furnace vented into the attic ? Along with, were all stacks vented to exterior ?

    But the key to the major moisture was the furnace. Granted the attic does not have the ventilation most would want/expect to see and there may be many other sources of moisture migrating into the attic. But, a furnace dumping into the attic is all that it would take and that specific point/item was not directly addressed or questioned.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    that specific point/item was not directly addressed or questioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    gas fired appliances and no visible roof vents.
    Well you did ask.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    HG,
    Just being obtuse, after reviewing the posts I may have missed it, please show me where someone asked the simple and obvious specific question; was the furnace vented through the roof or was the furnace vented into the attic ? Along with, were all stacks vented to exterior ?

    But the key to the major moisture was the furnace. Granted the attic does not have the ventilation most would want/expect to see and there may be many other sources of moisture migrating into the attic. But, a furnace dumping into the attic is all that it would take and that specific point/item was not directly addressed or questioned.
    I pointed you to it in the post made and last edited 12 hours before you made THIS double post.

    Start with post number 7 in this discussion, READ Raymond's ordered list - its RIGHT THERE starting at the end of his list item at #2. Even Ted Menelly picked up on Raymond's (Canadian) references and that directed question, turned rhetorical, acknowledging it already had been mentioned by Raymond, in the opening of his final paragraph at Post #9. This entire discussion topic is filled with comments regarding objectional sources AND acknowledging the OPs contributions as to the solitary natural ventillation of this meager inhabital attic space having nothing other than four undercut HIGH vents for same.

    Your assault of "ted kidd" was completely unwarranted. He gave a common example of draft hood & bypass - this of course followed the ALREADY provided suggestion of a complete disconnect between fuel-fired appliance exaust vent and the above-the-roof-line exit point already having been suggested earlier in the discussion.

    Prevailing winds, low humidity airid conditions - no idea of the geography of the OP's half of the state.

    Now as for EVERYBODY but YOU picking up on the OP's statements of there being NOTHING regarding ntural ventillation in the attic, and consisting of four HIGH vents all of which were under sized openings from roof deck - YOU are the ONLY one who missed that. It was discussed MANY times by many posters including myself.

    Even when Chas went on about rusted light in steam shower room AND that the steam shower room hadn't been used OFTEN, you turned it into had not been used PERIOD.

    Apparently you rely too much on your incomplete memory of information you skim once and never revisit. YOU need to read the ENTIRE topic discussion in the progressive chronilogicl order of the posts, carefully.

    You aren't royal - there was no "we" just YOU.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-27-2013 at 03:03 PM.

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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Well you did ask.
    Billy, I was just looking at the fact your post #36 came in at 9:46pm after Charlies post #34 at 6:04pm. where Charlie updates that furnace vent was not attached and notes post#38 terminated in the attic. If you had the furnace venting into the attic thought before Charlies posting but came in (posted) after Charlie's update showed up, cudos


  49. #49
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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    HG,
    First off, I apologize to Ted Kid if anything I said was taken by Ted or anyone else as an "assault of Ted Kid", it was not intended as an assault in any way.

    HG,
    Sorry that I fired up your argumentative side. Had no intention of threatening your ego either. The Royal "We". is more of a collective statement than a personal identifier. Sorry that you felt included in the "we", please do exclude your self.

    Raymond's post #7 """ 2. Penetrations into attic from (pot lights as you found) plumbing stacks, ceiling light fixtures, exhaust fan housings, non sealed and non insulated attic hatch, exhaust not venting to exterior."""" I took the "exhaust not venting" referencing the exhaust fan housing and not furnace exhaust. It is not uncommon to find an exhaust fan that is vented into an attic and most look for that scenario. That is where I thought he was going. If not OK, exhaust could be from many things if not specified even a furnace .

    Penetration of the envelope into the attic by light, stacks or anything else if not sealed is a pathway, but a vent stack or a furnace terminating in the attic is something else. I look at penetration and termination as two different and distinct things.

    My comment to Charlie's OP "...only had four upper roof vents and no other..." was that it was a clue since there was no reference to stack vents or furnace mentioned. Just a clue. We looked for sources of the moisture, both common and uncommon, that was migrating into the attic and pathways/penetrations through the envelope, along with method of attic ventilation. All common process. The furnace exhaust not being connected to the roof is a little uncommon, though one of the first things you typically look for. Charlie did not mention it nor did anyone specifically question the furnace vent path being continuous and undisturbed through the attic. But so much for that dead horse.

    I hope that others grasped the real point that I was making. in my "failed the test" post. It was less about the furnace venting and more about process. Though I see it was lost on you. Which is ok. No harm no foul...Not the first nor will it be the last time. Oh well.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    HG,
    ... The furnace exhaust not being connected to the roof is a little uncommon, though one of the first things you typically look for. Charlie did not mention it nor did anyone specifically question the furnace vent path being continuous and undisturbed through the attic. But so much for that dead horse.
    Its the one of the first things you commonly find, along with discontinuous to the outdoors plumbing stacks & auxiliary vents, and the all-to-common discontinuous ventillation ducts, whenEVER a roof is replaced or re-roofed, and especially in a FLIPPER project; #2 is damage to the above along with venting, crushed, nails poking through, the list goes on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    ...The bath exhaust fans are present and exhausting to the outside, hopefully?...
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    ...2....exhaust not venting to exterior.
    3. ...dryer venting to interior...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    .....Are there gas fired systems in the home....oh well Raymond and others named several. ....and a vent coming from a water heater that I could not see from the ground...
    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd View Post
    .....More ventilation can kill people who have combustion appliances. Particularly those disconnected from chimneys...
    ... You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures? Uncontrolled ventillation is an absurd and wishful approach to removing moisture that shouldn't be allowed to reach the roof in the first place


    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    Garry

    house was a flipper, no one has lived in it for year while remodeling, no humidifier and furnace running at 68 degrees, many canned lights on second floor and then the steam room, which seller said has not been used often. the canned light in steam room was not properly sealed and when i looked inside ,rusty lugs. the one year old roof exterior was in great shape, then came the attic inspection. four eight inch roof vents but with 5 inch cut out on sheathing and all the wet sheathing ,dripping nails and h clips and inch thick frost, now the temperture outside prior to inspection reached 5 below at night and daily highs of 17 for week prior, starting to think that along with only one high vent sourse in attic a gabl vent would help. but what do you do with all the wet sheathing ??

    see house photo below

    cvf
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Rogers View Post
    It's clearly a moisture issue, not a roof issue. They'll have to find the source of moisture and fix that first. Typically and most obvious is shower steam vent or clothes dryer vent. But can be much more obscure...



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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    ok guys

    sorry -but only stated that i observed only roof vents and no lower roof vents which is recommended . the water heater and furnace stack vent was visable above roof--give me a break --it was not connected in an non accessable area of atiic,that was the problem.problem fixed
    love ya all
    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Did not have time to read through all the replies but from what I see the loose insulation is blocking the soffit vents, another post has an excellent diagram of proper roof space ventilation.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    david

    no soffit vents -stated in this thread
    cvf


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    ok guys

    sorry -but only stated that i observed only roof vents and no lower roof vents which is recommended . the water heater and furnace stack vent was visable above roof--give me a break --it was not connected in an non accessable area of atiic,that was the problem.problem fixed
    love ya all
    cvf

    Charlie, Don't look at it as bashing you.
    Personally, not knowing/seeing that the furnace venting was disconnected was not a failure on your part. "Non accessible is non accessible". Unless you stood on the roof at the vent with your hand or face in the vent you would not have known what was going on. You did not fail at the inspection since you knew something was wrong and pursued it. Which is ore that many in the HI community would do.

    Some may have seemed to present an idea as to possible cause in a shotgun responce and then try to say " well I told you so" after the fact. Grasping on one statement or another to support themselves in an effort to demonstrate a positions that did not exist. With a little Ego involved. A Ponteriori. Reasoning from effects to causes. A Priori. Reasoning from causes to ellects. Which is how and what most of us do when looking at a property. And we all make assumptions along the way, though when faced with a situation that does not have a conclusive and final answer, we reevaluate what assumptions that have been made to look for the correct answer.

    The situation you presented in the OP is the type of posting that helps those in the forum reevaluate how they process a property and set the seeds for thought, to help determine the cause of a problem that is not obvious.

    It take a good man to say that I have a problem and ask for an opinion from piers. To many in the HI industry allow their Ego to prevent personal growth.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    There were too many posts to this thread for me to take the time and read all of them, but I did rear several excellent replies.

    1. Maybe you are in the early learning phase of inspecting (actually after 28 years I am still in the learning phase). If there is frost on the sheathing you don't need to waste your time with a moisture meter.
    2. We need to be careful with the thinking: too much moisture...add ventilation. Yes, ventilation is important, but if there is reasonable ventilation adding more probably will not help.
    3. Asking a roofer about moisture problems in attics? In most cases you would have better luck asking the roofer to diagnose problems with you car.
    4. Too much moisture in the attic almost always (if not always) means too much moisture in the house and/or thermal bypasses. Unfortunately, explaining thermal bypasses and finding someone to correct them is typically a lot harder than saying add ventilation. Common thermal bypasses are typically easy to find (by may not be so easy to get to) Furring strips on block walls, soffits, dropped ceilings at closets and showers, chimney chases, vent stack chases, wall cavities above stairways and at the ends of tubs/showers, hihats, wall plates, pull-down stairways, ductwork, whole house fans. These are many of the common ones.

    Sorry for the long response. I should have just said: moisture in the attic-don't recommend a roofer.


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    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    When with a client I am careful to avoid representing myself as something I'm not. Seems that level of caution is understood by some here, and completely missed by others. No matter how competent you are in your field, you will look incompetent in all ways when you say something stupid if the client finds out later you were wrong.

    I always find it funny how people attempt to simplify things they don't understand, including thinking other people's occupations are somehow simple. People in industries just sharing ideas with each other, the picture tends to encompass just the things important to them. I try not to make that mistake. There is a broader perspective to be had. I come here to see how home inspectors think and what they do. Having perspectives from outside my field makes my perspective much stronger.


    I see some of you embrace that perspective, and some reject it. Keep in mind, ego is impediment to intellect. The school yard jabs those who can't see, and I enjoy the laugh.

    But when people say things I see as dangerous, I won't candy coat it. "Do no harm" is primary in my field, and I'll go to the mat for it. I'm here to learn and give advice, nobody is paying me. Nice not to have to be PC all the time.

    Others chosing to be offended is not something I can control, people will always find a way. Those who are predisposed to take offense, I'm sorry your mother didn't sucle you enough, and do enjoy pushing your buttons. May as well have you show me your colors.

    I think of home inspectors like airplane inspectors. If I were a pilot I would not assume to know the inspectors job, but if they start giving flying instructions I'd be asking for that seperate credential. I would not presume to know how to build a proper home inspection report. Because you know how to inspect houses does not mean you know the science behind how they operate.

    If you want to give remediation advice I'm not going to stop you. If your job is to inspect and report, I think making repair recommendations demeans your profession. Seems like talking out of school. Don't you view Inspection as a practice, a specialty? Jack of all trades is master of none.

    If you don't understand pressures, air flow, heat flow, and combustion safety AND test these things, putting unqualified recommendations to paper is stupid assumption of liability.

    Is there anything in your profession about doing no harm?

    What you do in the attic may effect things in the basement. As we tighten houses, more people are getting sick from CO. The recommendation is to keep your fingerprints away from that problem.

    "Natural" ventilation is uncontroled ventilation. It's "I hope this works" ventilation. It's "I may not have a problem, but let's install this solution so we can pretend to have addressed the issue.


    Gary, nice job on your comments to Ken and Charlie. You did properly interpret my meaning. But be careful talking about when "differential pressure gradients" may or may not occur. I'd suggest NOT talking about them EXCEPT when you've pulled out your manometer and measured them. Do you guys carry manometers?

    Also, "To much natural ventilation is not ever a problem when dealing with attic ventilation." is a really bold statement. How would you be qualified to ever make such a statement? How do you define problem? Mosture only?


    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Ted,
    Have to agree with Ken.
    To much natural ventilation is not ever a problem when dealing with attic ventilation. There does become a point where it is adequate for the space and additional does not accomplish much (diminishing returns for efforts).

    Now if you mechanically ventilate it is possible to create a differential pressure gradient that you will be actively drawing air from the interior of the structure.

    Ken,
    Referencing E&O I would take as going beyond the coverage when specif remediation is offered.

    I think Ted was saying that it is better to find the cause of a problem rather than just treat the effects. "You want to recommend treatments where there are known cures?"""

    Charlie,
    There has to be a source of the moisture. Weather it is a stand alone humidifier, furnace humidifier, basement or etc there has to be a source. The seller may not be telling the entire truth about what has been going on in the house. Need to put on your detective hat.

    I put a new roof (rafters up) for my Mother-inlaw. Weather temp changed and heat came on , FHA and set at 80. Received a call from her with exact same thing taking place. She called saying that the roof was leaking. Odd thing was it had not rained. Found out that she had a new (big) humidifier and was running at the max 24/7. But when first asked she was doing anything different that the previous year she replied "no". Old house with poor insulation and a screwy owner (her). Choice was to either make extensive (costly) changes to the design of the structure or to just reduce the humidifier and the heat setting. She did latter with successful outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Energy auditor

    OK

    Building science? A vast amount of home inspectors on this forum have taken hundreds of hours over time on all you listed on LinkedIn.

    Now. I am not getting down on you but the entire envelope of the home and everything in and around it is certainly no mystery to the vast amount of inspectors on this site. You talk to the group as a bunch of idiots like they have no clue on what is going on in the home. Most have so much more experience than you in the entire envelope and systems than you may ever have. Again, not beating on you because you do have experience and know how to use it.

    Give respect where respect is due.

    "Keep your E&O paid up. If you recommend more attic ventilation, might increase your limits. Small children, elderly, and infirm are the ones you'll kill first. Feeling queasy yet?"

    Seriously? You need to tone it down a bit.

    The home is leaking.

    The soffits not only have no vents but you can clearly see by the pictures that the insulation is blown tight to the edge so even if there was proper ventilation it would be blocked off.

    Just as in any of our observations in both visual and written notes by the original post and further posts by that individual we are stating what we see and understand in writing what is possibly going on. Suggestions made by any on here and you for that matter no matter what the training is speculation at best as we were not at the home.

    The home is leaking. Large amount of moisture are being pumped into the home by one source or another. The moisture has made it to the attic.

    Get a grip. The moisture needs a place to go until the home is sealed up and the moisture is not longer an issue going into the attic. The inside of the home needs proper ventilation as well as the attic and the best way to handle it is with adequate ventilation for the time being and the rest addressed when one can afford to delve deeper into the situation and one had the money for repairs.

    Start with the minimum at the least ventilation that any home should have for now. That will alleviate the vast quantities of moisture damaging the attic and home at this time and is the least expensive route to go. It needs to be done now. All other steps are exactly that, steps.

    Kill the folks by adding at the very least minimaly efficient ventilation to stop immediate damage while other areas are investigated for proper repairs. That is what needs to happen and happen now or they will be replacing the entire roof as well as mold build up and making a dangerous situation in the home.

    But of course you want to jump in immediately with chest thrown out in front of you saying....Stop, you are going to kill everyone. I suggest you call one of your to die for buddies in the energy audit business that may be from Charlies area and pass the name off to Charlie. That would be a good step to take. He can pass it off to the buyer or seller for that matter since it is not even the buyers home yet. You just cannot go gunning into a situation when it is not the persons home you are inspecting. Name a bunch of possible causes for such situations that are in fact part if not all of the problem and turn it over to the next party inline. They go in and give dollar figures agreeing with some or all of the inspectors diagnosis and put a plan together for full repair.

    What exactly was it you said? Oh, I know.

    " What dream world are you living in"

    Blower door test? Yes, leaking, windows, steam rooms and no ventilation , ceiling penetrations, poorly weather stripped doors, attic access points leaking like hell, flues leaking into home etc etc etc etc etc. We get it.

    The first and foremost obvious point one can see just by the pictures and written comment????

    Crappy and extremely inadequate attic ventilation. It does not even have the extreme minimum any home should have.....Bingo!!!!!!
    I'm dying to learn how "Crappy and extremely inadequate attic ventilation" creates or is cause of moisture problems.

    Ted, I'm sorry you choose to be offended. I'll send you a binky if you need one, but insulation as proxy for air sealing clearly indicates one inspector who's never been off the groung yet fancies himself a test pilot. What, you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

    I laugh that you think "telling me what I need to do" adjacent to "get a grip" and "give respect where it's due" isn't completely hypocritical, particularly given all the misstatements you make about building science.

    Last edited by ted kidd; 02-01-2013 at 07:21 AM.

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Caledon, Ontario
    Posts
    5,005

    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    If you want to give remediation advice I'm not going to stop you. If your job is to inspect and report, I think making repair recommendations demeans your profession. Seems like talking out of school. Don't you view Inspection as a practice, a specialty? Jack of all trades is master of none.
    Demeans the profession? Just what are you offering your clients and how are you helping them if you don't offer them advice as to how something maybe repaired? There maybe several ways to repair something, I believe and have been operating for over twenty years by offering my advice and opinions.

    I have heard this arguement before. But at the end of the day the courts may find you neglected to offer a standard of care.

    As homes are built tighter people are not getting sick from CO but rather polluted indoor air. Sure the odd case of CO may present itself but its not a everyday problem, particularly if the appliances are properly vented and aspirated.

    Yup don't leave fingerprints making generalizations, you too could end up in court due to lack of care, and its the courts which will determine what should have been exercised as a standard fo care, not your SOP.


  58. #58
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Rochester, NY
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Raymond,

    What are you talking about, standard of care? In this case there is condensation forming on the roof deck near the perimeter top plates. What is your standard of care here?

    I thought this was a group of people who are experts at performing inspections and writing reports? When you see a defect, don't you call it out and say "have repair by a professional" or some such?

    "Correct condition leading to condensation on underside of roof deck."

    Are you going to put the "how" in your report? I think that goes too far. What if your "How" is incorrect? Isn't there a duty to do no harm? Were you hired to provide work scopes?

    If you are an expert on repairing things, go ahead and make the repairs. But if you are an armchair expert and just make "helpful suggestions" trying to look knowledgable, you risk looking like an amateur. Then even your inspection skills become suspect.


  59. #59
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd View Post
    Raymond,

    What are you talking about, standard of care? In this case there is condensation forming on the roof deck near the perimeter top plates. What is your standard of care here?

    I thought this was a group of people who are experts at performing inspections and writing reports? When you see a defect, don't you call it out and say "have repair by a professional" or some such?

    "Correct condition leading to condensation on underside of roof deck."

    Are you going to put the "how" in your report? I think that goes too far. What if your "How" is incorrect? Isn't there a duty to do no harm? Were you hired to provide work scopes?

    If you are an expert on repairing things, go ahead and make the repairs. But if you are an armchair expert and just make "helpful suggestions" trying to look knowledgable, you risk looking like an amateur. Then even your inspection skills become suspect.
    The highlighted red is what the absolute most basic report may say. Again you show your lack of knowledge on what a home inspection is or is not and what level of inspection and reporting should be done...or not. You keep on telling every one that you have the only answer for everything and everyone but you is wrong about everything.

    Why do folks keep coming back at your statements.....because you are wrong most of the time with the exception of some of the most basic principals. Again you have absolutely no idea what knowledge folks have in the slightest.

    Forty hours for this?
    Forty hours at that?
    Forty hours at these other items?

    How about hundreds and hundreds of hours and in many cases a decade or many decades in the trades along with decades in the inspection business.

    Binky??? What are you three years old asking your momma if you could please keeps yours a couple years longer.

    As far as being offended? Someone like you could no more offend me but you maybe tick me off with your blatant ignorance.

    I mentioned respect. I started out having a slight bit of respect for you only because you have maybe a half dozen years into a new venture. Add some decades onto that and come back and chat and we may give you a break and maybe a little respect. Until then your communication skills and what you believe to be vast knowledge needs to take a seat in the corner for a while with, what did you actually say, Binky?

    Walking into a home and looking around could tell many on here far more than you going in and testing and then the thinking (you don't do) and then the reporting.

    Frost on the underside of the roof ?????? Get it fixed???? Are you kidding. You sound like a Realtor walking an Inspector through his report telling the inspector to only say the basics and they will handle the rest. Yes an Inspector will turn it over to the next party involved because we do not have all day to spend on one item and we cannot fix what we inspect (by law). But we are going to mention what is happening, some quick list of why it may be happening, some absolutes such as minimal insufficient ventilation but not exactly how much to add because we don't have all day for this inspection.

    We all looked at the original post and added the what may be and lists of such that could be possible and you jump in calling everyone ignorant and stick to what you know and and and and a whole lot more of ignorant comments.

    Like I said, grip it. And that Binky??? You really need to give that up.


  60. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Cape Cod, Massachusetts
    Posts
    574

    Default Re: frost and severe moisture in attic

    Quote Originally Posted by ted kidd
    If you don't understand pressures, air flow, heat flow, and combustion safety AND test these things, putting unqualified recommendations to paper is stupid assumption of liability.
    You couldn't have said it any better. Now all you have to do is heed your own advise. You speak as though you want us to believe you have knowledge in HVAC or thermodynamics. Unfortunately all your assumptions seem to be based on what appears to be some 2 day "blower door" class you may have attended. (Although I'm not totally convinced you even did that). You speak in circles and are not very creditable.

    I would suggest you present any arguments you have in terms of math and science, not on defensive, negative comments toward others.

    Ken Amelin
    Cape Cod's Best Inspection Services
    www.midcapehomeinspection.com

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