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  1. #1
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    Default Garage attic hatch question

    Morning members.
    I do not come across attic hatches in garage setting often.

    This access hatch cover was typical particle board with a block of polystyrene, EPS.
    No markings to identify if the EPS was fire resistant.
    The hatch enclosure was not fire rated as well.
    hatch.JPG
    Using code (IRC)
    The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.
    Anything more to ad would be appreciated.
    Much thanks.
    Have a great day.
    Off to work soon.


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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Morning members.
    I do not come across attic hatches in garage setting often.

    This access hatch cover was typical particle board with a block of polystyrene, EPS.
    No markings to identify if the EPS was fire resistant.
    The hatch enclosure was not fire rated as well.
    hatch.JPG
    Using code (IRC)
    The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.
    Anything more to ad would be appreciated.
    Much thanks.
    Have a great day.
    Off to work soon.
    The National Building Code of Canada indicates that EPS foam insulation must be covered (protected) with an approved covering, unless it is fire resistant. Typically gypsum board, certain gauges of metal, etc. (I don't have the exact list of approved material details). But nonetheless it must not be exposed.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    If your code is like the IRC, the ceiling is not fire rated ... it is simply 1/2 inch gypsum board as a minimum, and your photo shows what looks like thin plywood.

    Replace or cover the wood with 1/2 inch gypsum board.

    Cover the foam with 1/2 inch gypsum board (i.e., make the cover too heavy to lift ).

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If your code is like the IRC, the ceiling is not fire rated ... it is simply 1/2 inch gypsum board as a minimum, and your photo shows what looks like thin plywood.

    Replace or cover the wood with 1/2 inch gypsum board.

    Cover the foam with 1/2 inch gypsum board (i.e., make the cover too heavy to lift ).
    Claude, Jerry, much thanks.
    I have been doing research on EPS. Here is what I have come across. Hexabromocyclododecane (HBCD). the claim is HBCD allows EPS foam insulation to meet the stringent fire safety requirements governed by the International Code Council and National Building Code of Canada.
    Read more...
    Thanks again!

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Why do you concern yourself with IRC? It has no authority in Canada, this is irrelevant info for clients. You should be using NBC. Do you quote IRC to clients?

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Raymond,

    Does the RBC require separation between the garage and the living space? If so, is that separation minimum 1/2 inch gypsum board?

    If so, that would not meet the requirement and would not be allowed in the garage - as Robert was asking about.

    Curious how the RBC addresses private garage/living space separation for residential dwellings.

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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Why do you concern yourself with IRC? It has no authority in Canada, this is irrelevant info for clients. You should be using NBC. Do you quote IRC to clients?
    Good point, Ray. Always glean the NBCC.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    As far as I know the RBC is Quebec based, and based on Nat. Building Code. As stated that hatch is approved in Que.

    Also the Ontario Building Code does not mention anything about using drywall for a hatch lid. Maybe I could not find the particular section stating otherwise.

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    As far as I know the RBC is Quebec based, and based on Nat. Building Code. As stated that hatch is approved in Que.

    Also the Ontario Building Code does not mention anything about using drywall for a hatch lid. Maybe I could not find the particular section stating otherwise.
    Correct. Quebec utilizes the NBCC. National Building Code Canada.
    Next year, by the end of April so I hear, we will have our own provincial code like Ontario, Alberta, BC.
    The RBQ have FULL AHJ.
    AHJ have been a hot potato subject changing from Montreal to RBQ at least 2 times due to allegations of confidence.
    Also, if you think finding gold is hard, try talking to an AHJ in Quebec. Use to happen but not any more.

    As for fire rated, the hatch is part of the ceiling. It is an opening like any other opening. It does not take rocket scientist to figure this one out.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Ont. Building Code
    9.19.2. Access

    9.19.2.1. Access

    (1) Every attic or roof space shall be provided with an access hatch where the attic or roof space measures not less than,

    (a) 10 mē in area,

    (b) 1 000 mm in length or width, and

    (c) 600 mm in height over at least the area described in Clauses (a) and (b).

    (2) The hatch required in Sentence (1) shall be not less than 550 mm by 900 mm except that, where the hatch serves a single dwelling unit, the hatch may be reduced to,

    (a) 0.32 m2 in area with no dimension less than 545 mm, or

    (b) 500 mm by 700 mm.

    (3) Hatchways to attic or roof spaces shall be fitted with doors or covers.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Ont. Building Code
    9.19.2. Access

    9.19.2.1. Access

    (1) Every attic or roof space shall be provided with an access hatch where the attic or roof space measures not less than,

    (a) 10 mē in area,

    (b) 1 000 mm in length or width, and

    (c) 600 mm in height over at least the area described in Clauses (a) and (b).

    (2) The hatch required in Sentence (1) shall be not less than 550 mm by 900 mm except that, where the hatch serves a single dwelling unit, the hatch may be reduced to,

    (a) 0.32 m2 in area with no dimension less than 545 mm, or

    (b) 500 mm by 700 mm.

    (3) Hatchways to attic or roof spaces shall be fitted with doors or covers.
    Raymond, those are hatchways in a habitable space.
    A garage is not considered a habitable space.

    Index 3.1.9 Building Services in Fire Separations and (Fire Rated Assemblies.)

    1. Section: 3.1.9.1. Fire Stopping of "Service Penetrations."
    2. Section: 3.1.9.2. Combustibility of Service Penetrations.
    3. Section: 3.1.9.3. Penetration by Wires, Cables and Outlet Boxes.
    4. Section: 3.1.9.4. Combustible Piping Penetrations. As for ABS and other plastic drains and traps in garage basins.
    Central vacuums, piping and wall access plates.
    5. Section: 3.1.9.5. Openings through Membrane Ceilings.
    6. Section: 3.1.9.6. Plenums. ( Duct work requires 26 mil sheet metal or other fire rated materials.)

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Some questions - Does the RBCC:

    - have a Residential Code component to it?

    - have a garage and living space separation section?

    - have a Private Garage separation section if no Residential Code component?

    - It is possible (likely even?) that a section in a Building Code (which is not a Residential Code) has a section for separation between a Private Garage and living space which requires a fire-resistance rating, with an exception for 1- and 2-family dwellings and townhouses and/or the like by other names.

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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Some questions - Does the RBCC:

    - have a Residential Code component to it?

    - have a garage and living space separation section?

    - have a Private Garage separation section if no Residential Code component?

    - It is possible (likely even?) that a section in a Building Code (which is not a Residential Code) has a section for separation between a Private Garage and living space which requires a fire-resistance rating, with an exception for 1- and 2-family dwellings and townhouses and/or the like by other names.
    Please excuse me if I am mistaken, Jerry what is the RBCC?
    Would you be referring to the CNBC - NBC/C or the Nation Building Code of Canada - Canadian National Build Code, or am I mistaken?

    As to your question; does the building code have a section for garage and living space separation section?
    Yes.
    As expressed, it is an attached garage without a separation unless you wish to call the space in the wall assembly a separate space.

    As to my observation/s.
    Ceilings require fire rating, as do walls and flooring and any penetrations and protrusions therein.
    An attached garage, to which I should have mentioned in my post, is not a habitable space but a storage space, or am I mistaken?
    It does not fit all the requirements of a habitable space for human occupancy, so it becomes a storage space.

    Awaiting your reply.

    PS: Good morning, Jerry and Ray!
    Hope the two of you, well actually three, sorry Claude, as well as all the members, and views, and hope you are in good health and spirits this fine morning.
    Good Morning!

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 06-23-2016 at 08:23 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Please excuse me if I am mistaken, Jerry what is the RBCC?
    RBC ... typo ... because Raymond referred to the RBC.

    to your question; does the building code have a section for garage and living space separation section?
    Yes.
    As expressed, it is an attached garage without a separation unless you wish to call the space in the wall assembly a separate space.
    That hasn't been expressed, and still hasn't been addressed by stating what the code says.

    To simplify my question: does your code require:
    - a) a fire-resistance rated wall
    - b) a non fire-resistance rated wall but requires 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side
    - c) a non fire-resistance rated wall of any material
    - d) a ceiling meeting: a); b); or c) above

    to my observation/s.
    Ceilings require fire rating, as do walls and flooring and any penetrations and protrusions therein.
    That is the code I am asking for ... what does the code say? Raymond posted a code which did not address the.

    attached garage, to which I should have mentioned in my post, is not a habitable space but a storage space, or am I mistaken?
    It does not fit all the requirements of a habitable space for human occupancy, so it becomes a storage space.
    Typically, a garage is specifically different from regular storage space as a garage typically contains items which potentially create a higher hazard risk than regular storage space which is not a garage.

    Do you have a link to an online version of the code?

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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    [QUOTE=Jerry Peck;267131]RBC ... typo ... because Raymond referred to the RBC.



    That hasn't been expressed, and still hasn't been addressed by stating what the code says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    To simplify my question: does your code require:
    - a) a fire-resistance rated wall
    - b) a non fire-resistance rated wall but requires 1/2" gypsum board on the garage side
    - c) a non fire-resistance rated wall of any material
    - d) a ceiling meeting: a); b); or c) above
    Yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is the code I am asking for ... what does the code say? Raymond posted a code which did not address the.
    I concur. The code determines garage walls and ceilings require fire rating.
    That is my point. No limitation for attic hatches.




    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Typically, a garage is specifically different from regular storage space as a garage typically contains items which potentially create a higher hazard risk than regular storage space which is not a garage.
    I concur. Thus the need for fire rating. Sorry, I could have worded storage area more elaborately. "typically contains items which potentially create a higher hazard risk" Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Do you have a link to an online version of the code?
    Not attainable as far as I know.
    Not like the IRC code caffee.
    Too bad.
    So sad.

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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Correct. Quebec utilizes the NBCC. National Building Code Canada.
    Okay, let's start with the NBCC (National Building Code Canada)

    You still haven't provided any code sections or code wording - not sure what it takes to get that out of you.

    And you haven't answered any questions either.

    So I will start over:
    - What is the code (the code's wording, not your reading of what it says) which addresses any separation (wall or ceiling) between a private garage and the living space.

    If the code does have a separation requirement between a private garage and the living space, then any opening in that separation must meet the requirements for openings through that separation (typically, be caulked and sealed around to prevent the flame from going through the separation), or, the opening (attic hatch) would need to meet the separation requirement.

    I.e., the IRC does not have a specific requirement for any attic hatch in the garage ceiling which separates the garage from the living space and its attic - it does not need a specific requirement because the attic hatch is an opening in that separation and the separation is thus voided when the attic hatch is removed (opened, lifted, etc) and when the attic hatch is replaced ... the separation needs to be maintained - i.e., the attic hatch is not permitted to be a piece of paper ... or a piece of wood ... it must be minimum 1/2" gypsum board (or equivalent).


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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Okay, let's start with the NBCC (National Building Code Canada)

    You still haven't provided any code sections or code wording - not sure what it takes to get that out of you.

    And you haven't answered any questions either.

    So I will start over:
    - What is the code (the code's wording, not your reading of what it says) which addresses any separation (wall or ceiling) between a private garage and the living space.

    If the code does have a separation requirement between a private garage and the living space, then any opening in that separation must meet the requirements for openings through that separation (typically, be caulked and sealed around to prevent the flame from going through the separation), or, the opening (attic hatch) would need to meet the separation requirement.

    I.e., the IRC does not have a specific requirement for any attic hatch in the garage ceiling which separates the garage from the living space and its attic - it does not need a specific requirement because the attic hatch is an opening in that separation and the separation is thus voided when the attic hatch is removed (opened, lifted, etc) and when the attic hatch is replaced ... the separation needs to be maintained - i.e., the attic hatch is not permitted to be a piece of paper ... or a piece of wood ... it must be minimum 1/2" gypsum board (or equivalent).
    Jerry, so sorry I have been late providing an answer. Been busy.
    I will post the NBCC code later today when I get back from work.

    Also, thank you for providing the IRC attic hatch fire rated requirement.
    Have a great day as always.
    Off to work.
    Regards.
    Robert.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Whatever the code says about location is not addressing the issue JP is asking about - the hatch should be gypsum, not particle board.

    You guys in Quebec have to do everything your own way, in French, so I suppose you could get some whiplash for saying that hatch there, she is merde, but the fact remains, that hatch IS merde.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    The hatch does not have to be gypsum, it can also be metal.

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    The hatch does not have to be gypsum, it can also be metal.
    Again - would you please post the code which says it does not.

    Can it be paper? What code says no?

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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    The code does not make any reference that I have been able to find which specifically states the material that is required for the hatch.

    Contrarily metal hatches are approved even though not mentioned in the code. All new homes have metal lids in the hatch and I have yet to hear any Ontario building department state they are not permitted. The code is more concerned about size of opening.

    http://www.can-save.ca/products/buil...ION/AtticHatch

    Hence there is no code reference unless someone reading this from Ontario has a section to reference.

    The value of experience is not in seeing much, but in seeing wisely.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Garage attic hatch question

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    The code does not make any reference that I have been able to find which specifically states the material that is required for the hatch.
    Raymond,

    My question has been, and still is, what is the code section which addresses the separation requirements (by whatever name) of the garage from the living space.

    The attic hatch will, obviously, need to meet those same requirements.

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