Attic Pull down ladder door panel - insulation - InspectionNews

Jeff Eastman · #1 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 08:47 AM

..............

Phillip Stojanik · #2 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 11:17 AM

Insulation of any kind on the pulldown stairway face is just kind of a bonous if it happens to be there at all.

Just as your solid wood exterior doors do not have the same R value as the wall system they penetrate, the pulldown stairway is not going to match the R value of the ceiling system it penetrates.

You can get attic stairway covers that are insulated and help to reduce air exchange between the conditioned space and the attic but I have yet to see a builder who will install them. Its just one of those aftermarket things the homeowner has to do on their own.

Here's one option...

Amazon.com: Battic Door Attic Stair Cover With R-7 Insulation Kit, Fits 25" x 54" Attic Stairs. (Please see other listing for 22x54 size): Kitchen & Dining

Phillip Stojanik · #3 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan orourke

If 1" board does not meet the minimum R30 value, then it is a defect. I write it up all the time.

Whoa Dan!

Where is it stated that a pulldown attic stairway door face is required to have R 30 insulation?

Do you also write up as defective solid core wooden exterior or glass doors because they do not have the same R value as the wall systems they are installed in?

Jim Luttrall · #4 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 02:08 PM

Good link Phillip, I usually recommend adding insulation or a cover like that along with weather stripping.

I have yet to see a pull down stair that is insulated to R-11 much less R-30. How would that happen? What about insulated doors that lead from the second floor to the attic; they are nowhere near the overall requirment.
I'm happy if there is a little foam weather strip and minimal insulation.
Jim

Jerry Peck · #5 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 02:23 PM

Phillip,

Whoa there.

I *assume* the discussion is regarding a pulldown stairs which is not in the garage, but in the living area with an insulated ceiling.

I know of NO exception which excepts out the attic access cover from having to comply with the minimum ceiling R value for attic ceiling insulation.

Jim Luttrall · #6 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 05:09 PM

How about this out of the IRC?
N1102.1 Thermal performance criteria. The minimum required insulation R-value....(other than opaque doors which are governed by Section N1102.1.3)....

Section N1102.1.3 Opaque doors. Opaque doors separating conditioned and unconditioned space shall have a maximum u-facto of 0.35. One opaque door shall be permitted to be exempt from this U-factor requirement.

I'm a little rusty on U factor conversion to R-value, does R-2.86 sound right? That would mean about an inch of fiberglass batt insulation, right?

Jerry Peck · #7 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 07:05 PM

Jim,

That's not a door.

Attic access hatches (openings with covers), with their covers either laying in their trims, or, with pull-down stairs, attached to the underside of the stairs to cover the opening when the stairs is up and closed.

Attic access hatch covers are effectively "ceiling areas", below which is the conditioned space and above which is the unconditioned attic.

If you want to call this a "door", you will need to apply all of the requirements for "doors" to it. Then, of course, you would want those "stairs on the door" to comply with all the requirements for "stairs" too.

Jim Luttrall · #8 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 08:57 PM

If it is not a door, then why does it have hinges, weather stripping and door springs? It may swing on a horizontal axis, but it is certainly more of a door than a ceiling membrane.
door

(dôr, dōr) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. A movable structure used to close off an entrance, typically consisting of a panel that swings on hinges or that slides or rotates.

Phillip Stojanik · #9 (**permalink**) 07-18-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Phillip,

Whoa there.

I *assume* the discussion is regarding a pulldown stairs which is not in the garage, but in the living area with an insulated ceiling.

I know of NO exception which excepts out the attic access cover from having to comply with the minimum ceiling R value for attic ceiling insulation.

You're assumption is correct but, Wow Jerry!

A duo of double negatives? "...NO exception which excepts out..."? Please tell me that you are not about to try and prove the negative in this case?

Negative proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joe Griffin · #10 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 05:57 AM

I see about 1 in 10 hatches or staiways that have any insulation at all, never mind R-30. In turn I recommend that they be insulated, and suggest possible ways for clients to keep the warm/cold air out of the attic. Here is a pic I use, and some others as well. Feel free to use them if you like.

Jerry Peck · #11 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

You're assumption is correct but, Wow Jerry!

A duo of double negatives? "...NO exception which excepts out..."? Please tell me that you are not about to try and prove the negative in this case?

Negative proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phillip,

No double negatives there.

*This* is what I said (except that I've added underlining for readability purposes): "I know of NO exception which excepts out the attic access cover from having to comply with the minimum ceiling R value for attic ceiling insulation."

An 'exception' removes an item from a requirement, with no exception, the item is not removed from the requirement - thus

I know of no exception ... which excepts out ... those attic access hatch covers, whether over an opening or over a pull-down stair.

Not withstanding the not withstanding makes one withstanding?

Phillip Stojanik · #12 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Phillip,

No double negatives there.

*This* is what I said (except that I've added underlining for readability purposes): "I know of NO exception which excepts out the attic access cover from having to comply with the minimum ceiling R value for attic ceiling insulation."

An 'exception' removes an item from a requirement, with no exception, the item is not removed from the requirement - thus

I know of no exception ... which excepts out ... those attic access hatch covers, whether over an opening or over a pull-down stair.

Not withstanding the not withstanding makes one withstanding?

You are just cracking me up here Jerry!

It would require a room full of highly paid attorneys and an unpaid (except for parking downtown) jury to determine if either you or I actually said anything of relevance in our respective previous posts here in this thread.

As far as code specified insulation for an attic pulldown stairway goes, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree for about the 3rd time in...what...5 or 6 years now? All things considered that's a pretty good record and I am right there with you (about) 98.5% of the time.

But (and you knew there was a "but" coming right?

)! Let's get real rather than theoretical for just a moment.

Insulation on, or over, a pulldown attic stairway (while a FANTASTIC idea as far as energy conservation and all concepts of building "green" are concerned) is not a current code requirement in any "authoritative" jurisdiction that I am aware of.

In all honestly, does the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) that you personally work for these days enforce such a building code provision?

If so, why (and what is their current code based justification for doing so)? If not, why not (and again, what is their current code based justification for doing so)?

Thirdly, what role does the interpretation of current building code have to do with the generalist home inspector?

Sorry for the thread drift folks but I respect Jerry's opinion enough to ask these questions. Others should feel free to weigh in as well.

Jim Luttrall · #13 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 01:45 PM

I still think it is "A movable structure used to close off an entrance, typically consisting of a panel that swings on hinges or that slides or rotates"

And as such there is an exception for that in the code to depart from the required ceiling or wall insulation requirement.

Notice I did not use the "D" word.

Phillip Stojanik · #14 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall

I still think it is "A movable structure used to close off an entrance, typically consisting of a panel that swings on hinges or that slides or rotates"

And as such there is an exception for that in the code to depart from the required ceiling or wall insulation requirement.

Notice I did not use the "D" word.

I am with you there Jim!

Jerry Peck · #15 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Stojanik

But (and you knew there was a "but" coming right?

)! Let's get real rather than theoretical for just a moment.

Insulation on, or over, a pulldown attic stairway (while a FANTASTIC idea as far as energy conservation and all concepts of building "green" are concerned) is not a current code requirement in any "authoritative" jurisdiction that I am aware of.

In all honestly, does the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) that you personally work for these days enforce such a building code provision?

Here in the Daytona Beach/Ormond Beach area and all over South Florida - insulating the attic access hatch cover is a requirement, it is considered to be just what it actually is ... "attic ceiling area".

What code section? Why, the same one which requires a minimum of R-19 insulation on the ceiling to an unconditioned attic above.

Replace the attic access hatch with a pull-down stair and there is no difference, which is just one of the reasons that all of the pull-down stairs I see are in the unconditioned garages.

And, yes, if the attic insulation is R-30, then a section of R-30 batt needs to be somehow secured in place over the attic access hatch cover (yes, this is typically 'not secured in place', but it should be, otherwise, this batt is found laying 'next to' the cover instead of 'over' the cover. I've seen them attached to the covers with glue or staples (don't know what kind of glue was used for those which were glued and not stapled, though).

Does that answer your question regarding authority and code section? What code section do you use when the attic insulation is missing at the ceiling? Apply that same code section to the ceiling area at the attic access hatch cover. Apply that same code section to the ceiling area underneath the pull-down stair (if the pull-down stair is in a conditioned space).

Jim Luttrall · #16 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 05:33 PM

10`3 Inch Wood Folding Attic Stairway W2210 by Werner

8`9`` x 10` 4`` Height, Wood, Folding Attic Stairway, Opening Size 22-1/2`` x 54``, 250 LB Weight Capacity, For Residential Use Only, Pull String Allows For Easy Operation, Every Step Is Rodded For Strength & Durability, Full Wrap Around Door Hinge Minimizes Heat Loss, Hinges Butt Metal To Metal To Maintain Ladder Rigidity, Quality Door Ready For Staining/Painting, Fully Assembled & Ready To Install.

I still think they qualify as a door, and apparently so does Werner, the guys who make them.

Jerry Peck · #17 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 05:54 PM

And this is in the IBC. (underlining is mine)
- 1008.1.4 Floor elevation.

There shall be a floor or landing on each side of a door. Such floor or landing shall be at the same elevation on each side of the door. Landings shall be level except for exterior landings, which are permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent slope).

- - Exceptions:

- - - 1. Doors serving individual dwelling units in Groups R-2 and R-3 where the following apply:
- - - - 1.1. A door is permitted to open at the top step of an interior flight of stairs, provided the door does not swing over the top step.
- - - - 1.2. Screen doors and storm doors are permitted
to swing over stairs or landings.

Being as that "door" (as you call it) does *not* meet Exceptions 1.1 or 1.2, that Exception does not apply, leaving the requirement intact.