Short Attic Ladder - InspectionNews

Travis Grubbs · #1 (**permalink**) 04-02-2007, 06:23 PM

Today I served as a temporary building inspector for a nearby town. I denied the cerificate of occupancy on this town house when I pulled the attic ladder down out of the hall ceiling at the top of the stair way. I would like to see how the water heater and the HVAC system would be replaced in the attic with this ladder installation.

Travis

Tim Moreira · #2 (**permalink**) 04-02-2007, 06:29 PM

hummmm, that would be a little precarious to say the least.

wes owens · #3 (**permalink**) 04-02-2007, 08:43 PM

That reminds me of a house I did where most of the houses in the development had attic ladders that were a foot too short and the builders made boxes for the owners to sit under the ladder to access the attics.

Richard Rushing · #4 (**permalink**) 04-03-2007, 06:01 AM

Hey Travis,

Irrespective of the ladder... the last step down from the ladder makes the staircase a trip hazard as the last step-down is an irregular step.

IRC R807.1 Attic access: In buildings with combustible ceiling or roof construction, an attic access opening shall be provided to attic areas that exceed 30 square feet (2.8m2) and have a vertical height of 30 inches (762 mm) or greater. The rough-framed opening shall not be less than 22 inches by 30 inches (559mmby 762mm)and shall be located in a hallway or other readily accessible location. A 30-inch (762 mm) minimum unobstructed headroom in the attic space shall be provided at some point above the access opening. See Section M1305.1.3 for access requirements where mechanical equipment is located in attics.

As highlighted, the staircase makes this no longer a readily accessible location as it endangers all who enter or exit.

Also, the manufacturers installation and listing instructions are being ignored;

IRC 2003, R102.4
Exception: Where enforcement of a code provision would violate the conditions of the listing of the equipment or appliance, the conditions of the listing and manufacturer's instructions shall apply.

Richard

wayne soper · #5 (**permalink**) 04-03-2007, 06:43 AM

all they really need to do is turn it 180 degrees correct. or is there not enough room at the landing also

Michael Thomas · #6 (**permalink**) 04-04-2007, 11:36 AM

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Nolan Kienitz · #7 (**permalink**) 04-10-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne soper

all they really need to do is turn it 180 degrees correct. or is there not enough room at the landing also

May (I repeat: "MAY") be room to have ladder drop from other direction, but then you still don't have access as Richard noted below or above (depending on which direction you are reading the posts).

Not a good situation to say the least.

Rick Hurst · #8 (**permalink**) 04-10-2007, 10:47 AM

How about this access ladder at a walk-in attic which runs up to another attic space where an furnace unit is located.

The openings between the rungs were 20+. Any recommendation on what the spacings should be?

Jerry Peck · #9 (**permalink**) 04-10-2007, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

The openings between the rungs were 20+. Any recommendation on what the spacings should be?

12" maximum spacing.

Bob Harper · #10 (**permalink**) 04-24-2007, 03:15 PM

There are several attic ladders now available you should check out. Werner makes a square telescopic one for 2x2 scuttle holes as well as a 22x54. The best I've seen is the Rainbox, which has a scissor beam system and is available insulated with 1 or 2" of foam, a weatherstripping gasket and can take numerous types of sheathing to match the ceiling. Much more energy conscious. Contractor price runs about $580+ installation.

HTH

Jerry Peck · #11 (**permalink**) 04-24-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

Werner makes a square telescopic one for 2x2 scuttle holes

Bob,

I'd say that installing a pull-down ladder in an existing 2x2 attic access opening is 'altering' that opening, which would then require the opening to meet the current minimum size of 22 inches by 30 inches, which would mean installing a ladder which would now fit that larger opening.

Jack Feldmann · #12 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 04:10 AM

Jerry said, "
I'd say that installing a pull-down ladder in an existing 2x2 attic access opening is 'altering' that opening, which would then require the opening to meet the current minimum size of 22 inches by 30 inches..."

I'm not so sure that evey one would interpret the act of installing a ladder (without changing the opening size) as "altering" in the sense that it must be brought up to current code.

Is replacing the cover an act of altering? What about replacing the trim around the opening?

I just don't follow the logic of how installing a ladder in an existing opening (assuming the opening size wasn't changed) would require bringing it up to current code.
JF

Michael Thomas · #13 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

There are several attic ladders now available you should check out. Werner makes a square telescopic one for 2x2 scuttle holes as well as a 22x54. The best I've seen is the Rainbox, which has a scissor beam system and is available insulated with 1 or 2" of foam, a weatherstripping gasket and can take numerous types of sheathing to match the ceiling. Much more energy conscious. Contractor price runs about $580+ installation.

HTH

a GOOGLE for "rainbox ladder" does not find this, do you have a link to the manufacturer?

Jerry Peck · #14 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 05:38 AM

Bob,

You have "altered" the opening because you no longer have an "opening", you have a "permanent ladder", which will also require other things, such as protecting all the NM cable, etc., in the attic to a height of 7 feet.

With just an "opening" you only need to protect the NM cable within 6 feet of the "opening".

I agree that replacing an old, beat up, piece of plywood or gypsum board which is 2x2 with a new piece, or replacing the old trim, would not be "altering" "the" "opening", however, installing a "permanent ladder" would.

Jerry Peck · #15 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 05:44 AM

Michael,

I found this: Werner Televator Small Opening Attic Ladder

Here: Werner Televator Small Opening Attic Ladder

From here: Attic Ladders

Bob Harper · #16 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 06:03 AM

My goof---www.rainbowatticstair.com

Interesting perspective. In my area, most of the attic access is through a hatch in the master closet that goes through trusses. This limits you to one axis for the longer leg of it, which puts the ladder itself often in a position it would be impossible to extend, much less access. You also need that clearance at the foot of the ladder, right? Wouldn't do to put the ladder into the coat rack on one side.

The problem is, the AHJ passed it with these rabbit holes in the first place. Pretty dumb putting a hatch in a closet so the dust can get all over your nice things. Real PIA.

Thanks for linking Werner Jerry. That's it.

Are you going to get a new furnance up through there? Nope. I'd recommend they install a full 22x54 stair on the main hallway where there is plenty of clearance both at the framing and the landing.

So, why isn't such a hatch or door counted as "fenestration" or have to meet the energy code?

Jerry Peck · #17 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

So, why isn't such a hatch or door counted as "fenestration" or have to meet the energy code?

They are (basically).

From the Florida Building Code - Chapter 13, Energy Efficiency
- 3-606.1.ABC.1.2.3 Ceilings.
- - Ceilings shall be sealed at the following locations:
- - - 1. Between walls and ceilings.
- - - 2. At penetrations of the ceiling plane of the top floor of the building (such as chimneys, vent pipes, ceiling fixtures, registers, open shafts, or chases) so that air flow between the attic or unconditioned space and conditioned space is stopped.
- - - 3. Large openings, such as shafts, chases soffits, opening around chimneys, and dropped ceiling spaces (such as above kitchen cabinets, bathroom vanities, shower stalls, and closets), shall be sealed with an airtight panel or sheeting material and sealed to adjacent top plates (or other framing members) so that a continuous air barrier separates the spaces below and above the ceiling plane.
- - - 4. Gaps between ceiling gypsum board and the top plate shall be sealed with a sealant to stop air flow between the attic and the interior of wall cavities.
- - - 5. The attic access hatch, if located in the conditioned space shall have an airtight seal.

They already have (should already have) the same insulation permanently and securely attached to the top of the attic cover (so the insulation stays in place).

Many of our old homes have those silly 2x2 openings in closet where you can't get to them either. Then the inspectors were forced to realize

that the minimum attic opening size did not meet code, then they were impressed upon to understand that there needed to be room to put a ladder under the attic access for access to it, and, over time, those silly 2x2 openings went the way of most old 'we've always done it that way' things and the openings 'came out of the closet'.

Michael Thomas · #18 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 10:21 AM

Thanks. Some pretty fancy attic decking at the site, too:

Rainbow Attic Stair Accessories

Bob Harper · #19 (**permalink**) 04-25-2007, 09:59 PM

This shows several things: First, this is how the cheap skate builders address the min. opening. This is in a kid's bedroom closet. To access it, you'd have to remove most of the clothes in the closet and still need a ladder. Note the lack of insulation and weatherstripping. When we get these Nor'easters, the wind gusts cause sudden depressurization in the attic, which causes these hatches to flip open as the house tries to equilibrate. With this huge hole in the top of the house, it is leaking tons of conditioned air but also fighting the draft in the fireplace. On a warm day, I got -3 Pascals primarily because of this hole. Imagine what it would be on a 20F day.

BTW, there is a Cat. 1 furnace up there. Good luck changing it out through this gopher hole.

This was a huge national builder.