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Thread: EIFS?

  1. #1
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    Default EIFS?

    This photo looks like EIFS, doesn't it? The orange material you can see above the hose bib looks and feels like rigid foam insulation, and the stucco itself looks to be only about 1/8-3/16".
    None of the penetrations were finished/sealed properly for EIFS.

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    Default Re: EIFS?

    John,

    What did it sound like when you tapped on it?

    That could be stucco with expanding foam filling the hole, and the foam has been burned by sunlight UV.

    Is that a 'drywall screw'?

    That's not a freeze-proof hose bibb. Aren't those required up in your area? Either that or insulated, heating tape, something to protect against freezing, right?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Jerry - It sounded hollow when tapped on, or, thumped on, but it's wood frame. It occurred to me also that what looks like insulation could be expanding foam, but then why is the stucco so thin?
    Re the hose bibbs, I see non-freeze-proof ones all the time, even on newer homes. As long as there are proper shut-offs inside, they're considered acceptable around here, as far as I know.


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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Here's a better pic.

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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    It occurred to me also that what looks like insulation could be expanding foam, but then why is the stucco so thin?

    John,

    Not having been there and you were, I was wondering if you saw or probed in far enough to verify the depth of the stucco and are sure it was only that thick, or if it could have been thicker, that it just looked that way at the hole because of the foam used to fill the hole (if that is what was done).

    Did you probe into the hole to check it?

    Scott P. have experience with EIFS, maybe he will comment on it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    John. Do not have answer to your stucco issue but thought I would share my Hose Bib comment.

    HOSE BIBS: No anti-siphon valve. Recommend anti-siphon valve/backflow preventer for all hose bibs. Outdoor Faucet: The ordinary garden hose is the most common way to contaminate the water supply. This can happen when one end of the hose is attached to an outdoor faucet (sill cock), and the other end is connected to an aspirator type bottle, insecticides or other chemicals in the aspirator bottle can be siphoned back into the drinking water supply. You can easily prevent the possibility of this type of contamination by installing a hose bibb vacuum breaker. This is a small, inexpensive device that simply attaches to a threaded water faucet.
    : Remove hoses before winter, to prevent freezing.
    : Turn off valve on the inside of the house and open the outside faucet to allow drainage and to prevent freezing.


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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Not having been there and you were, I was wondering if you saw or probed in far enough to verify the depth of the stucco and are sure it was only that thick, or if it could have been thicker, that it just looked that way at the hole because of the foam used to fill the hole (if that is what was done).

    Did you probe into the hole to check it?

    Scott P. have experience with EIFS, maybe he will comment on it.
    Jerry - I did probe, at an angle to the stucco, to verify it's as thin as it looks, and to determine the consistency of the insulation.


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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Arnold View Post
    Jerry - I did probe, at an angle to the stucco, to verify it's as thin as it looks, and to determine the consistency of the insulation.
    John,

    Another question, then: How far back were you able to probe before hitting the sheathing?

    That may give you your answer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Another question, then: How far back were you able to probe before hitting the sheathing?

    That may give you your answer.
    You got me there. I didn't probe all the way. Only enough to convince myself of the thickness of the stucco and the nature of the orange stuff.


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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Based on that picture it looks like what is called a DEFS (Direct Exterior Finish System). It is a foam board (polyisocyanate), one brand is Densglass Gold. The foam has a covering on both or sometimes one side that has fiberglass fibers running through it. Many times you will find the board nailed directly to the studs, without any wood sheathing! Then a lamina or finish coat is applied directly on the surface of the foam board. It is like an egg shell! Almost impossible to repair. It is a mess..

    One good thing about this system is that when water gets behind it you will not have any rotting walls! It just flows down to the sill plate and rots it out!

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 11-05-2008 at 03:29 PM.
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Scott - Thanks for your input. The buyer is having a specialist check it out and I'll report back if and when he lets me know the scoop.


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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Based on that picture it looks like what is called a DEFS (Direct Exterior Finish System). It is a foam board (polyisocyanate), one brand is Densglass Gold. The foam has a covering on both or sometimes one side that has fiberglass fibers running through it. Many times you will find the board nailed directly to the studs, without any wood sheathing!
    Scott,

    DensGlass Gold IS an exterior gypsum sheathing, it IS designed and intended to be installed directly to the studs with nothing behind it.

    DensGlass Gold is also *not foam*, it is gypsum board with fiberglass sheets on its faces and edges instead of cellulose sheets (paper) on its faces and edges.

    Added with edit:

    However, for stucco, it should have paper-backed metal lath installed over it. However, it *does not* require a weather-resistive barrier, it already provides that purpose.

    http://www.gp.com/build/documentview...entid=4922&bpl

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-05-2008 at 04:41 PM.
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Scott,

    DensGlass Gold IS an exterior gypsum sheathing, it IS designed and intended to be installed directly to the studs with nothing behind it.

    DensGlass Gold is also *not foam*, it is gypsum board with fiberglass sheets on its faces and edges instead of cellulose sheets (paper) on its faces and edges.

    Added with edit:

    However, for stucco, it should have paper-backed metal lath installed over it. However, it *does not* require a weather-resistive barrier, it already provides that purpose.

    http://www.gp.com/build/documentview...entid=4922&bpl
    Thanks for seeing my blunder!!! It has been a rough day. It was a 7 hour typing day on the computer!

    Yes, DensGlass is a gypsum board. Celotex use to make a polyiso board with a similar name, I can't find it right now but anyway it sounds almost the same.

    You can also use the DensGlass for the DEFS. It has the same problems.

    The polyiso foam board has almost the same fiberglass fabric mat on it.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    You can also use the DensGlass for the DEFS.
    Scott,

    Are you sure?

    Look at pages 5 and 6 in that link I provided.

    I don't think G-P allows it directly applied to DensGlass. Which, of course, would be a problem if it were done.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Scott,

    Are you sure?

    Look at pages 5 and 6 in that link I provided.

    I don't think G-P allows it directly applied to DensGlass. Which, of course, would be a problem if it were done.
    GP might not allow it, but Dryvit has or had systems called Fastrack and Outsulation that allowed for its use. Major problems.... Could be the reason that GP does not allow for that use now. I think that they both came onto the market in 1989 and were pulled or revamped a dozen times before the class action settlement in 2002.

    So much has changed in product usage from when EIFS hit our shores 25+ years ago.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 11-06-2008 at 07:02 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    DensGlass Gold hit the market in 1985, my earliest install sheets on it are 2003, which is after that 2002 class action you are referring to, so I am not sure what was allowed to be used on DensGlass prior to 2003.

    I researched it on the internet and came up with a link which 'visually looks older' than 2003, which also states EIFS mechanically or adhesively attached, but I could not find a date on it to reference its origination to - it 'just looked like' if was from before 2003.

    Also, even more so than today, 10 years ago code in many areas did not exist or were loosely applied or enforced, which 'would have allowed' one 'approved' product to be installed on another 'approved' product even though there was nothing showing that combined 'system of products' was 'approved' for use.

    Having come from a very strong code enforcement area (South Florida), I always thought most of the country was that way, until I started talking to other inspectors from other parts of the country ... even other parts of Florida. Heck, even when I was going around Florida doing municipal inspections for various building departments just 2 years ago I further realized how 'backward thinking' many of the rural areas were (heck, even many of the urban less-populated-than-South-Florida were backward thinking) regarding codes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: EIFS?

    Judging from the picture -- I agree with Jerry's first assessment. It looks to me like whoever installed the bib filled in the back with an expanding foam, and what happens to the expanding foam when it is exposed to rust (like from the hose bib) is it will turn the orange colour and become very brittle.

    Though, the texture is not one I am familiar with. It looks more like plaster stucco to me than EIFS. Maybe it's just a different finish floating job not so popular up here in Canada

    It's a horrible installation detail though. Hoses move, and EIFS with caulking isn't really structurally sound enough to deal with constant movement. One particularly good recommendation I've seen with regards to hose bibs is to attach them into wood blocking secured to your substrate. You would use a weather-treated exterior grade wood, and fasten it to the substrate (into studs behind it, as there should be a stud where the hose bib penetrates through the substrate). You would then insert a backer rod and caulk, as with any normal EIFS cladding penetration. I'll find have to find the resource...


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