Thread: Landings

Photo taken at rear of home. Any comments on the steps serving those sliding glass door units? If so please quote appropriate code section.
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Photo taken at rear of home. Any comments on the steps serving those sliding glass door units? If so please quote appropriate code section.
Thank you.

Poor design, but I don't know of a code that prohibits it as it is on the exterior and has no more than two steps.

Now if that is tile, I bet that it is slicker than snail snot when it is wet!

I'm not saying anything ... yet, ... other than ... 'wrong title', those aren't "landings".

I'll bite. R311.4.3 2006 IRC. The floor or landing appears to be greater than 1.5 inches lower than the top of the threshold, and the floor or landing should extend a minimun of 36 inches in the direction of travel.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

Photo taken at rear of home. Any comments on the steps serving those sliding glass door units? If so please quote appropriate code section.
Thank you.

As JP said, there is no landing. However, the requirements differ. This would depend on when the house was built or the door was installed and to which code. Also, I have seen local inspectors waive some requirements when things are changed, if the requirement was newer than the house. For instance, the old UBC was ok with a landing below floor level and some building departments do not require a change when a door is replaced with a similar door.

Since you are located in California, it could have been built to the UBC or the CBC. Since the CBC was a modified UBC until recently, then:

1997 UBC 1003.3.1.6 Floor level at doors. Regardless of the occupant load served, ther shall be a floor or a landing on each side of a door... (the rest of this section deals with requirements for other than residential, except for the exception)
EXCEPTION 1.2: A door may open at a landing that is not more than 8 inches lower than the floor level, provided the door does not swing over the landing.

1997 UBC 1003.3.1.7 Landings at doors. Regardless of the occupant load served, landings shall have a width not less than the width of the door or the width of the stairway served, whichever is greater. Doors in the fully open position shall not reduce a required dimension by more than 7 inches... (as with the code above, the rest refers to non-residential)
EXCEPTION: In Group R, Division 3 and Group U Occupancies and within individual units of Group R, Division 1 Occupancies, such length need not exceed 36 inches. (referring to landing depth

Looks like you need a landing. However, I do not if it should be at interior floor level or up to 8 inches below because I do not know when your house was constructed. I might have to give you a newer CBC code based on the IBC. (I hate California politics).

Edward and Gunnar appear to be on the scent, but I may have posed my question poorly per Jerry P? What I'm looking for is the opinions of others as to whether these "steps" are code comply or are landings 36" in length measured in the direction of travel required?
I have an opinion on this posted scenario and I just threw this question out for general discussion because I've found the local AHJ have mixed interpretations of the condition shown.

• Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

  Edward and Gunnar appear to be on the scent, but I may have posed my question poorly per Jerry P? What I'm looking for is the opinions of others as to whether these "steps" are code comply or are landings 36" in length measured in the direction of travel required?

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

I have an opinion on this posted scenario and I just threw this question out for general discussion because I've found the local AHJ have mixed interpretations of the condition shown.

You have a slider and a swinging door opening in but you do have the step rise for the step itself as one dimension and then the rise to the home a different dimension.

Just another observation.

WC Jerry,

What is the depth of the tread and the height of the riser?

One thing for sure (I'll give this away) ... do not concern yourselves with the width, it is more than sufficient regarding width requirements.

ec Jerry asked: "What is the depth of the tread and the height of the riser?"
wc Jerry: not an issue regarding my code related question. What I'm after is opines on is are those steps serving the exterior doors in the photo code complient?
(I'll ask this of the 2006 IRC as most folks on this BB are not in CA. However, perhaps Gunnar would quote the appropriate section on this issue per 2007 CBC snf if he believes this to be a reportable defect per that code, or under the 1997 UBC?

I don't have a code book handy. But my two cents. Neither door swings out, therefore a step is sufficient. I think it's poor design and the rises appear to be different from the patio to the stair top and then to the door.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

ec Jerry asked: "What is the depth of the tread and the height of the riser?"
wc Jerry: not an issue regarding my code related question. What I'm after is opines on is are those steps serving the exterior doors in the photo code complient?

WC Jerry,

I asked because the riser height looks to be "too high" to be "code compliant", which would mean the answer would be "no", but not for the reason you are looking at.

IRC 2003 R311.5.3.1 Riser height. bla,bla, *applicable section* The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).
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Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

IRC 2003 R311.5.3.1 Riser height. bla,bla, *applicable section* The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).
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Yup. already said that and the door swinging in and the other door being a slider. Riser heights different as well. I don't find the different riser heights much of a concern because entering the doors you have to pause to open the door going in. On the way out you pause to close the door so in reality you kind of only have one step to really concern yourself with at a time.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Yup. already said that and the door swinging in and the other door being a slider. Riser heights different as well. I don't find the different riser heights much of a concern because entering the doors you have to pause to open the door going in. On the way out you pause to close the door so in reality you kind of only have one step to really concern yourself with at a time.

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From the 2006 IRC. (highlighting with bold and underlining are mine)
- R311.4 Doors.

- - R311.4.3 Landings at doors.

There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).

- - - Exceptions:
- - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway. (Jerry's note: The landing is required, except in the case of the photo where neither door swings out over the stair, thus, NO landing is required for this exception part.)
- - - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing. (Jerry's note: The maximum height below the top of the threshold is 1-1/2 inches, except in the case of the photo where neither door swings out over the stair, thus, the landing or tread is allowed to be 7-3/4 inches lower than the top of the threshold.)
- - - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 73/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. (Jerry's note: The doors in the photo are not the required exit door, thus the floor/tread height is allowed to be down 7-3/4 inches.)
- - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel. (Jerry's note: The width of the tread exceeds the width of the doors, so this is not a problem.)

Okay, let's move on to Stairs, next.

- R311.5 Stairways.
- - R311.5.3 Stair treads and risers.
- - - R311.5.3.1 Riser height.The maximum riser height shall be 73/4 inches (196 mm). The riser shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). (Jerry's note: It looks like the first riser height may exceed 7-34 inch in height. Regardless, though, the top riser height looks to be less than half of the first riser's height, definitely NOT meeting the 3/8 inch variation limitation.)
- - - R311.5.3.2 Tread depth. The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches (254 mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread’s leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12 inches (305 mm) from the side where the treads are narrower.Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any point. Within any flight of stairs, the largest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). (Jerry's note: The tread depth does not appear to be a problem.)

To recap:

- A landing is NOT required.

- The maximum height limitation below the top of the threshold of 1-1/2" does NOT apply.

- The maximum riser height of 7-3/4 inches MAY apply.

- The maximum riser height variation of 3/8 inch DOES apply.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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I'm sorry Billy. I forgot about the drunken hill billies around the Memphis area

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

I'm sorry Billy. I forgot about the drunken hill billies around the Memphis area

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We-ins Just Plain Ole Country Folk 'Round Here.
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Jerry P said:

To recap:
- A landing is NOT required.

Here's where I'll throw my 2 cents in.

Exceptions:
- - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door,

If this is was a bedroom, which it very well could be, and it is a "required" bedroom exit, wouldn't a landing be required then?

However if it is not then Jerry P is correct....

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

If this is was a bedroom, which it very well could be, and it is a "required" bedroom exit, wouldn't a landing be required then?

No, "the required" bedroom exit is the bedroom door, this, then, would become the EERO - which could even be a window one would have to climb through.

EC Jerry is of course correct (no surprise there) and yep, we have some variations in riser height (foot traffic hazard), but this is a legal case in which the party bringing action's EW is claiming those rear entry doors require landings with a minimum of 36" in length in the direction of travel.
I just thought this might be a good exercise in understanding exterior door landing vs steps and I believe every home inspector should know the code reference posted by Jerry P on this thread by heart.

On another subject I would like to know where Billy gets those icons?

I was thinking more like no window and when there isn't a window then a door to the outside would be required.

Then it would be a required door.

Wouldn't this be a required exit then? Thus requiring the landing?

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

I was thinking more like no window and when there isn't a window then a door to the outside would be required.

Then it would be a required door.

No, it would an "optional" door, "optional" to having the window.

The "required" door is the (usually) "front entry door", all other doors being 'other than the' "required door". The "required" door must meet certain requirements, and one of those requirements is that it be "side hinged", which eliminates the sliding glass door (I know, you are referring to the other door in the photo). The "required door" must also be no smaller than a 3'0" x 6'8" door, and that other door is likely not 36" wide.

Wouldn't this be a required exit then? Thus requiring the landing?

Only if it were the only way in and out of that bedroom (if a bedroom) and then that would create another problem - only one way in and out, which is not allowed.

OK, believe it or not I see where you are coming from and agree.

I bolded the key word;

Exceptions:
- - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.

If it meant a door allowing egress from a bedroom it would say "all" required doors.

Am I on the right track?

Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle

Am I on the right track?

Yes sir you are.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

On another subject I would like to know where Billy gets those icons?

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