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  1. #1
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    Default Man, they used a lotta nails!

    I cannot remember ever having seen this many nails in siding. I bet the framing looked like Swiss cheese.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    The first two photos look they were nailing on paper, and why would you ever need that many nails for paper, but then, the third photo looks like T-1-11 instead of hardboard ... ?

    Either way, someone may have had some bulging siding and they wanted to pull it up tight.

    "Swiss cheese"?, more like "string cheese".

    Maybe they figured they needed the ballast weight to holder her down?

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The first two photos look they were nailing on paper, and why would you ever need that many nails for paper, but then, the third photo looks like T-1-11 instead of hardboard ... ? Either way, someone may have had some bulging siding and they wanted to pull it up tight. "Swiss cheese"?, more like "string cheese". Maybe they figured they needed the ballast weight to holder her down?
    Not nailing paper. Actually, it is all LP panel siding (or at least something similar, could be GP). Not sure, but I think it is OSB rather than hardboard. Pretty much the whole house was like this. Must have given the nail gun to the apprentice. "Whattaya mean you ran outta nails? I gave you two full boxes!"

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Gunnar,

    Sometimes those things about "the apprentice did it" are true.

    It is easy to understand the "helper" (I prefer that over "apprentice") asking his boss what this stuff was, and the boss replying that it was panel siding, 4" on center spacing pattern.

    *WE* know the boss was referring to the reverse board and batten pattern spacing, but the "helper" has no idea, so he just says 'Oh ... OK.'

    The boss walks off and the helper starts to nail it up like the boss told him to, and, guess what sticks in the helper's mind ... " 4" on center spacing " ... so, the helper nails it at 4 inches on center, or as close as he can to that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Jerry,

    I had a good laugh with your post.

    Around here, a lot of the carpenters and laborers are hispanic (largely from Mexico, but other Central and South American countries as well). As a result, a lot of stuff is poorly done. The problem is not necessarily the country of origin, the problem is the lack of jobsite training and supervision by the contractors that hired them.

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  6. #6
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    They don't need no stinking training ! They know what they are doing.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    .
    They don't need no stinking training !
    .
    .....

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Around here, a lot of the carpenters and laborers are hispanic (largely from Mexico, but other Central and South American countries as well). As a result, a lot of stuff is poorly done. The problem is not necessarily the country of origin, the problem is the lack of jobsite training and supervision by the contractors that hired them.
    __________________
    Gunnar, are you trying to say that all the people south of the great United States of America, all the way to the South Pole, do not necessarily do poor work!? Very enlightening, thanks!!


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Gunnar, are you trying to say that all the people south of the great United States of America, all the way to the South Pole, do not necessarily do poor work!? Very enlightening, thanks!!
    Brian,

    No, I am saying that it does not matter where someone comes from, the real problem is the lack of training and supervision. It is not the workers' fault, it is management's.

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  10. #10
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    Red face Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    It just came across to me as if you were saying, hispanic, means a lot of stuff poorly done, due to their nationality. Seeing as how it was a fairly serious sounding tone to your comment, I thought it a tad unfair. Maybe I'm just tired and should go to bed! That said you are one of the contributors to this board that makes me keep reading, cheers!


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Brian,

    Wow. I appreciate that.

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  12. #12
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    How can you teach some one if you can't talk to them?

    Cheap labor.
    I had a competitor inspector bid on a 5000 S.Q.Foot home for $ 450.00
    When gave the buyer my price $ 750 for the home inspection
    and $ 750.00 for the termite report. i got the termite inspection but the other guy got the home inspection at $ 450.00 Cheap labor.
    Nice guy but works Cheap...

    Best

    Ron


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Stud finders!


  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Brian,

    Wow. I appreciate that.

    Kiss, kiss, hug,hug

    I still say they don't need no shtinking training !!!!!!!!!!!!!! (:


  15. #15
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Is it poor country's like Mexico that is the problem or as Gunnar stated (the real problem is the lack of training and supervision. It is not the workers' fault, it is management's.) there has been little change down there over the years.

    I went to TJ. one time just for the day. about 30 years back the place was a mess from the very first building. Just about every kind of wrong approach to constructing a building was in play. It was shocking to see the way the building were put together there. No wonder when they get an earthquake the place hits the ground.

    Or is there more to the question?

    Best

    Ron


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    I've got a question about that siding, especially in photo 3. The trim areas around the windows and the strip across the top have me questioning the watertightness.do these areas not need to be called out as areas of concern? Thanks guys


  17. #17
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    I've got a question about that siding, especially in photo 3. The trim areas around the windows and the strip across the top have me questioning the watertightness.do these areas not need to be called out as areas of concern? Thanks guys
    Why?

    Best

    Ron


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Brian,

    The siding should run down behind those trim pieces, and, if not, then if properly flashed along the top of the trim (top of trim not visible in photos).

    My guess is that the siding runs down behind those trim pieces.

    However, you could make a valid point about those trim pieces being a 'wood decay hazard' for both the trim and the siding behind the trim as water can collect behind the trim, staying long enough to rot out either, or both, the trim or the siding.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    I've got a question about that siding, especially in photo 3. The trim areas around the windows and the strip across the top have me questioning the watertightness.do these areas not need to be called out as areas of concern? Thanks guys
    Brian,

    Yes, anytime you have horizontal trim, you run the risk of having water penetrate down between the siding and trim, which will often lead to decay. I prefer to see a z-flashing at areas like this. I think the IRC requires flashing a z-flashing or head flashing above doors and windows. I rarely see it, though.

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  20. #20
    mike huntzinger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Maybe the guy was bracing for a earthquake load on the siding of the home


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Thanks gentlemen, I suppose if like you say, all the flashing is installed OK then there shouldn't be a problem, except the wood decay Jerry mentioned. That said, if that top trim piece in photo 3 is covering the top of one panel and bottom of another there should be a z flashing joining the two, behind that trim piece? Thanks


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    That said, if that top trim piece in photo 3 is covering the top of one panel and bottom of another there should be a z flashing joining the two, behind that trim piece? Thanks

    Should be, yes ... and if so, then it would be more of a wood decay problem than a leak problem.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Great, thanks kindly!


  24. #24
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    But if you have fungus damage/wood decay problem than you have a leak problem.

    Best

    Ron


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    But if you have fungus damage/wood decay problem than you have a leak problem.

    Best

    Ron
    .
    .
    Ron,

    Hope You Made It This Morning.
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    But if you have fungus damage/wood decay problem than you have a leak problem.

    Not entirely.

    You may have a decay problem "between the trim and the siding", but that is not a "leak", it is a "construction defect of assembly", not using common sense on how things go together.

    Yet, there is not "leak" past the siding to the interior of the wall.

    Yes, when one sheet of T-1-11 is set above another, a 'Z' flashing is supposed to be installed. However, let us presume there is one 4' x 8' sheet of T-1-11 siding covering top to bottom. Now you want to install a horizontal trim 'for decoration'. You nail the trim to through the T-1-11 into the studs. When water gets down between the trim and the T-1-11 siding, I would not call that a "leak", that would be "expected".

    Anyone in their right mind should know that water will seep down between the two. That is "planned obsolescence", you know it will rot out, thus you know it will need to be repaired in the future, you have just given yourself work in 5-10-15 years. By the time you are called, you may have to replace the entire trim piece, and maybe even the siding. You have created work for yourself.

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  27. #27
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    The way is shut. and they that keep the door keep it shut. the way is shut.

    Thanks for thinking of me Billy...


    Yes Jerry you are correct. but if you have damage you have a leak...
    the boards can no longer hold out the water and the nails provide the point of access to all areas for the fungus and the water.

    Work for the carpenters 5, 10, 15 years down the road.

    Best

    Ron


  28. #28
    Shannon Guinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    Jerry,

    I had a good laugh with your post.

    Around here, a lot of the carpenters and laborers are hispanic (largely from Mexico, but other Central and South American countries as well). As a result, a lot of stuff is poorly done. The problem is not necessarily the country of origin, the problem is the lack of jobsite training and supervision by the contractors that hired them.
    I've seen the exact same thing here, only worse.

    Ever seen a nail gun fight? I have. One of my guys almost took one in the ear. This was from a crew of hispanics. We immediately rolled everything up and left. I was on my cellphone giving the GC "What-for" halfway back to the shop.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    A story from looong ago when I was framing houses. Had a helper....not a bit of knowledge of framing...told him to nail off the roof..and be sure and get those jounts really good!

    I heard him just getting after it.....rat-a-tat-tat...just like a machine gun!

    I'm thinking...man oh man...I've done went and hired me a good un!

    One of my other employee's said...hey boss... you gotta see this!

    Went inside...looked up at the decking and there was a millions staples sticking out of every horizontal joint up there!!!

    Guess I should have been a little more specific!!


  30. #30
    Errol Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    Hi, I don't post much but sure enjoy listening to you guys chat.

    Referring to Ron Bibler's post about TJ, I went there a few years ago with a group to build a house for a young couple in a really crowded, squalid area east of town. In one long day we put up an 8X12 gable roofed house with a loft, set on four telephone poles planted in the ground cause it was on a hill. It had a door that locked and windows that opened, with heavy screen over them to keep the kids from chucking rocks through - not fire code, but what are you gonna do. We installed a small electrical panel and told them if they were going to hijack power from nearby poles like everyone else, at least run it through the breaker.

    They were happy and we felt good, but if I lived there I'd be looking for a hole in that fence and practicing my swimming

    Errol


  31. #31
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Man, they used a lotta nails!

    They were probably trying to meet braced wall requirements using the APA or alternative method but I doubt it. Were these return walls on the side of the vehicle door for a garage?


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