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  1. #1
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    I believe this glazing is in a hazardous location. A 4x16 dual pane unit 6" above floor grade >18" above exterior grade. The only questionable code definition in my mind is R308.4.7.4 where the definition of walking surface is not defined suitably. Is a walking surface an area that can be walked on (exterior grade/Interior) or a designated walkway.

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    Last edited by John Wilcox; 01-12-2009 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Clarification of Code interperetation
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    John
    Don't understand your question?


    Jerry McCarthy
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    They can make that pane of glass as big as they want.

    Provided they met all structural requirements for the structural aspect of that structure, and met any and all requirements for hazardous conditions.

    I am sure there is some sort of physical limitation on their ability to manufacturer, handle, ship, and install glazing, but that would be the only limitation on it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    JP is of course correct and most all new hi-rise office buildings in the SF bay region use annealed glazing on their exteriors and that's why your question confused me.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  5. #5
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wilcox View Post
    Just wondering if it falls on engineering or contractors. Is it actually legal to fab a 4'x16' pane out of annealed glass? Who do you call to create this gem? Is there anywhere in the world this is legal? Seems a bit dangerous if you ask me.
    John: ASTM E1300 -07e1 Standard Practice for Determining Load Resistance of Glass in Buildings


  6. #6
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Ok the root of my question stems from IRC 2006 R 308.4 7.1 which states that an exposed area of an individual pane larger than 9 sq. ft. is considered a hazardous location.

    Permitted materials in such a location are Fully tempered Glass, Heat Strengthened Glass, Wired Glass and Plastics.

    Annealed Glass is in no way strengthened wired etc. and not approved for such a location and in my mind a safety concern where if the glass to break it would fall in large sheets and shards.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    You missed *the reason* that some glazing is considered to be in "hazardous locations".

    From the 2006 IRC. (see bold)

    - R308.3 Human impact loads.
    Individual glazed areas, including glass mirrors in hazardous locations such as those indicated as defined in Section R308.4, shall pass the test requirements of CPSC 16 CFR, Part 1201. Glazing shall comply with CPSC 16 CFR, Part 1201 criteria for Category I or Category II as indicated in Table R308.3.
    - - Exception:
    Louvered windows and jalousies shall comply with Section R308.2.


    ANY large pane of glazing which falls and is not tempered could create shards large enough to injure or kill people, even if the pane of glazing is only 2' x 2', if is it above people, that 'could' happen.


    Based on that, should ALL glazing be Fully Tempered?





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  8. #8
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Jerry,
    You're right, I misread the part about meeting all of the conditions to deemed hazardous. mine meets all but a questionable one regarding being within a horizontal distance of a walkway. The window is located approximately 6" above slab grade in a bucket 4' horizontally from the floor but open to the room.
    My question now would be if the area outside of the glass would be considered a walkway or what that definition means. Would the actual bucket be a walkway being that you can walk in it?

    Thanks for your replies
    John


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    John,

    I have no idea what you mean with "bucket"?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Yeah confusing I didn't get it until I saw it. It is a 4x16 box made of 1/4" steel that rests on an opening projecting into the exterior. one side is glass (exterior) other side is open to the interior.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wilcox View Post
    Yeah confusing I didn't get it until I saw it. It is a 4x16 box made of 1/4" steel that rests on an opening projecting into the exterior. one side is glass (exterior) other side is open to the interior.
    Still confused.

    Allow me to state what I am now envisioning:

    You have a wall with an opening in it where the slab projects out 4 feet on each end and is 16 feet long. What is the height? I am presuming the 1/4" steel is the framing? Does that three-sided box have glazing in the ends, or just the outer side.

    Basically, what I am envisioning is a 'bay window' which is 4 feet deep by 16 feet long by (how high)?

    Or is it more like a bay window which is 4 feet deep by 16 feet high by (how long)?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  12. #12
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Jerry P.
    IMHO Yes all glazing should be tempered. Especially in seismic zones.


  13. #13
    John Wilcox's Avatar
    John Wilcox Guest

    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    4' wide by 16' high by 4' deep.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Wilcox View Post
    4' wide by 16' high by 4' deep.
    Glazing on all three sides?

    Okay, now:

    Glazing is how high above the interior walking surface and how far horizontally is the interior walking surface?

    Same for the exterior walking surface.

    A walking surface is any surface intended to be walked on. Inside, that would typically be a floor. Outside, that would be a patio, walkway, grassed area without plantings keeping one from walking on it (if there is grass up to the house and no plants, that is a walking surface, you can be sure kids and grown-ups will be walking there - BUT - if there is an intermediate landscaped area at least 3' wide, then the walking surface is over 3' from the house wall).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
    John Wilcox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Jerry,
    You've cleared up a lot of confusion. There is actually glazing on only one side toward the exterior. The remaining sides are the 1/4" plate steel. The glazing itself rests on a steel platform 6" above slab grade and 4' away from intended walking surfaces(the interior floor).
    So provided that the exterior of this window is protected by landscaping for three feet of projection from this window and it is not within 36" of an interior walking space it is actually safe and satisfies code.


  16. #16
    Richard Pultar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    I never consider grass areas walking surfaces because in situations like determining we if a service gate around a pool is a pedestrian gate with all the issues for that kind of gate.
    Grass areas next to high retaining walls are another place where the issue to guard or not to guard.
    Ground next to a house is not a walkway. Albeit one can walk on it.
    I consider a defined walkway made of pavers,stone ,cement etc. that directs people to walk on it by the fact that it is there and is a logical pathway from and to a design element on the property.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Who makes 64 sq ft glass annealed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Pultar View Post
    and is a logical pathway from and to a design element on the property.
    Richard,

    Frequently, specified and defined walkways are *not* the logical walkways. Simply look around at all of the foot traffic paths through grassed areas - *those* are the "logical walkways".

    Many eons ago, while growing up in Ft. Pierce, Florida, they built a new Junior College there (Indian River Junior College, however, back then, we all called it Sandspur Tech because of all the sandspurs). Instead of installing the concrete walkways at the time of construction, they waited until after the first classes started in September, then, at the Christmas break, they went in and laid the concrete walkways wherever the students made their own walkways through the grass - *THOSE* were the "logical" walkways.

    Planners like to keep things nice and neat looking, people like to take straight lines - the shortest distance from Point A to Point B, across the grass or not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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