Thread: HardiPlank type Siding question

While inspecting the attic space today I could see a lot of daylight filtering in through the wall siding. Not any type of wall insulation board or vapor barrier was present behind it. I cannot imagine that this would be acceptable. Many of the butt joints on the siding was open too. Should they be sealed?

Thanks for your responce.

M. Mount

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Typically, there would be sheathing with a WRB (water-resistive barrier) over the sheathing, then the siding applied over that.

In come localities they allow the WRB and the siding, no sheathing (diagonal braces are used instead to resist the forces - in my opinion, there is nothing which replaces sheathing for strength, not only for load resistance but for wall strength resisting penetration from outside).

Thus, at the very least, you should have seen the WRB.

The hardiplank board can be damage by just about any thing without a backing board. its not designed to be installed like that. moisture from wind/rain will get in and then down into the ceilings/walls of the interior if not today then at some point in time soon.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

The HardiePlank board can be damage by just about any thing without a backing board. its not designed to be installed like that. moisture from wind/rain will get in and then down into the ceilings/walls of the interior if not today then at some point in time soon.

Best

Ron

Ron,

Look at the HardiePlank installation instructions, it is allowed to be installed without sheathing, just not without a WRB.

I agree, almost anything can damage it without the support of sheathing behind it, but ... it is allowed to be installed that way.

Thanks Jerry i have never look at the install info on that stuff. Its so weak. can't see it without something behind it.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by MaMa Mount

While inspecting the attic space today I could see a lot of daylight filtering in through the wall siding. Not any type of wall insulation board or vapor barrier was present behind it. I cannot imagine that this would be acceptable. Many of the butt joints on the siding was open too. Should they be sealed?

Thanks for your responce.

M. Mount

MMM: As has already been noted the siding cannot be installed without a sheathing substrate.

As for the butt joint sealant, maybe. It was initially required by James Hardie. It was dropped in their latest installation instructions publication though, and is not now required. Stupid decision, in my opinion.

Aaron

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

MMM: As has already been noted the siding cannot be installed without a sheathing substrate.

Aaron,

"As has already been noted the siding ... " CAN be installed without sheathing behind it, additionally, it is ... ALLOWED to be installed that way in the installation instructions.

Granted, I doubt many of us here think that is a brilliant move on James Hardie's part, but, I am sure it helps them compete with other sidings, so soundness be danged, the code does not required sheathing so neither will we.

Stupid? You bet it is.

Allowed? Yep.

Ms. Mount,

Did you happen to see something like this?

rick

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Aaron,

"As has already been noted the siding ... " CAN be installed without sheathing behind it, additionally, it is ... ALLOWED to be installed that way in the installation instructions.

Granted, I doubt many of us here think that is a brilliant move on James Hardie's part, but, I am sure it helps them compete with other sidings, so soundness be danged, the code does not required sheathing so neither will we.

Stupid? You bet it is.

Allowed? Yep.

Mea culpa. I meant "can" and not "cannot" - obviously.

I just added a three car garage using Hardie siding. The contractor used 1/2 inch plywood over the framing, covered it with a WRB then put the siding on, no caulking was used. Seemed like the right way to do it to me.

From the James Hardie HardiePlank installation instructions:

"James Hardie does not recommend the use of caulk at field butt joints."

What the installation instructions DO recommend, however, is a "joint flashing" behind each butt joint. Currently, the installation instructions say "joint flashing**" with the "**" stating "**As required by local building code".

These installation instructions have been evolving over the past couple of years, getting 'more water tight', so I would not be surprised to see, in a couple of more years, the "**" go away, making "joint flashing" their recommended method without "As required by" (it is currently the recommended method, but ... there is that "As required by" in there).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

From the James Hardie HardiePlank installation instructions:

"James Hardie does not recommend the use of caulk at field butt joints."

What the installation instructions DO recommend, however, is a "joint flashing" behind each butt joint. Currently, the installation instructions say "joint flashing**" with the "**" stating "**As required by local building code".

These installation instructions have been evolving over the past couple of years, getting 'more water tight', so I would not be surprised to see, in a couple of more years, the "**" go away, making "joint flashing" their recommended method without "As required by" (it is currently the recommended method, but ... there is that "As required by" in there).

JP: In my opinion, a manufacturer's recommendation regarding the installation and use of their product equates to a requirement on the part of the installer or end user as the case may be.

I fully understand that attorneys like to make a huge distinction between the terms recommend and require, much like the distinction made between the terms should and shall. In your opinion, why is it that manufacturers have such a dilemma with using the "require" word?

Aaron

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JP: In my opinion, a manufacturer's recommendation regarding the installation and use of their product equates to a requirement on the part of the installer or end user as the case may be.

Which is precisely what experts hired for the plaintiff will point out.

I fully understand that attorneys like to make a huge distinction between the terms recommend and require, much like the distinction made between the terms should and shall.

And, when in court, it is "likely" (i.e., 'recommended') that the plaintiff's attorney will ask the person representing the defendants (such as James Hardie) if their products will work equally well when installed without using those "recommended" actions, such as the joint flashings in this case.

If their response is "Yes, our siding will work equally well without those joint flashings.", the plaintiff's attorney will ask 'Then please explain why those recommendations are in your installation instructions."

That is a tough question, because any answer they give will show that they really feel those should be provided for, or, that they are asking for above and beyond work which is really required, needed, or necessary for the siding to perform as intended, in which case the intent is simply to make the installation more expensive for the consumer, is that what you are saying?

Either way, they lose that argument.

In your opinion, why is it that manufacturers have such a dilemma with using the "require" word?

Because if their competitors allow their product to be installed without it, think less expensive installation, and they require it, think more expensive installation, which product do you think the typical contractor will sell? The one which costs less to install, almost always.

JP: Makes sense.

Aaron

With hardie plank or any siding it does need a vapor barrier behind it and all sides of the hardie plank should be sealed with a good paint. Not just the primer that comes on it. Most areas the code states that flashing should be applied at the butt joints. But you don't want the siding sealed with caulking causing it not to move. In most cases the butt joint area is ok to caulk but may cause the siding to buckle. Also if the siding is put up wet or with a high moiture content. It may buckle also. Not having a vapor barrier behind will alow the moisture(Dew, rain etc.) to get behind the siding and can cause many other unfavorable probems.

Originally Posted by Mark Northrup

With hardie plank or any siding it does need a vapor barrier behind it and all sides of the hardie plank should be sealed with a good paint. Not just the primer that comes on it. Most areas the code states that flashing should be applied at the butt joints. But you don't want the siding sealed with caulking causing it not to move. In most cases the butt joint area is ok to caulk but may cause the siding to buckle. Also if the siding is put up wet or with a high moiture content. It may buckle also. Not having a vapor barrier behind will alow the moisture(Dew, rain etc.) to get behind the siding and can cause many other unfavorable probems.

Mark: The "vapor barrier" as you are calling the waterproof membrane, in my neighborhood, usually consists of Dow foam insulation board and/or half-ass painted OSB. The seams in this sheathing/WRB are not taped or sealed. So then, when you leave the butt joints of the fiber-cement siding unsealed/uncaulked/unflashed, you get moisture penetration.

It doe not really matter in North Texas though, because the houses are mostly brick veneer with a little bit of siding here and there to save money. The sorry-ass excuse for a drainage plane (in the form of half-ass painted OSB and Dow foam insulation board) leaks mostly behind the brick veneer. The amount of leakage behind the siding is negligible by comparison.

Aaron

Totally understand Arron. Here in Oregon it rains cats and dogs alot of the time. The water will mostly go where you don't want it to. Even in a high humid area like texas you want something to stop the moisture. I believe you have Formosan termites and they like warm moist areas. So i think it would still apply. As well if moisture and warmth are mixed i believe it speeds up the degradation of the Cellulose products by rot. I don't know if code requires it or not. Most places i have been code does require it. I have seen different types of vapor barrier. Tyvek, Tar paper etc. So in your area it may be ok to paint osb and call it good. But i think it would need some place to stop the moisture (in a worst case senario from getting in). Like a sprinkler being to close and spraying on the house.

Originally Posted by Mark Northrup

With hardie plank or any siding it does need a vapor barrier behind it ...

Mark,

Not a "vapor barrier", vapor needs to be able to go through it, it needs a WRB, a water-resistive barrier behind it to keep liquid water out.

Sorry Jerry
they way i learned it was Vapor Barrier that lets Air through and keeps moisture out and in most cases lets it run down the barrier. I sold Building material for A few years and that is what the Industry Calls it. Thanks for the Info.

Originally Posted by Mark Northrup

Sorry Jerry
they way i learned it was Vapor Barrier that lets Air through and keeps moisture out and in most cases lets it run down the barrier. I sold Building material for A few years and that is what the Industry Calls it. Thanks for the Info.

A vapor barrier is like plastic sheeting, it is a "barrier".

I suspect you are thinking of a vapor retarder, it simply 'retards' the flow of vapor through it, but does allow it.

A good WRB is a vapor "retarder" but does not allow (under normal pressures) liquid water to go through it.

jerry I understand what you are saying. I'm just refering to what is used in the building industry.

And they also have been know to have problems. Such as tyvec when it first came out would fall apart and be worthless after a few years.

Vapor barrier

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A vapor barrier is often used to refer to any material, typically a plastic or foil sheet, that resists diffusion of moisture through wall, ceiling and floor assemblies of buildings. Technically, many of these materials are only vapor retarders as they have varying degrees of permeability.
Water vapor moves into building cavities by two mechanisms: diffusion through building materials and by air transport (leakage), which is usually far more significant and problematic. A vapor retarder and an air barrier, serve to reduce this problem but are not necessarily interchangable.
Permeability, rated in perms, is a measure of the rate of transfer of water vapor through a material (1 perm = 1 grain/sf-hour per inch of mercury pressure. Vapor retarders have permeability ratings of 1.0 or lower. A more accurate, and useful, categorization of materials would be impermeable (≤1 perm), semi-permeable (>1 - 10 perms), and permeable (>10 perms).
Vapor retarders slow the rate of vapor diffusion into the thermal envelope of a structure. Other wetting mechanisms - such as wind-born rain, capillary wicking of ground moisture, air transport (infiltration) - are equaly important.

Jerry are you a lawyer by chance. Just curious.

Originally Posted by Mark Northrup

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A vapor barrier is often used to refer to any material, typically a plastic or foil sheet, that resists diffusion of moisture through wall, ceiling and floor assemblies of buildings. Technically, many of these materials are only vapor retarders as they have varying degrees of permeability.

Jerry are you a lawyer by chance. Just curious.

Mark,

No, not a lawyer, but I did stay at Holiday Inn a few times.

A a common mistake made here is referring to a vapor retarder as a vapor barrier (I have done so many times in the past and I am trying to not do it in the future), and we can best learn from each other knowing the correct terms where possible and practical, makes understanding what is really being said much easier. Understanding what is being said is how we learn.

Use the term "vapor barrier" and some of us will walk away thinking 'Hmmm ... I always thought vapor had to go through the wall, but that can't happen if there is a vapor barrier installed .. '

Thanks Jerry
I do like this site and other ones that i am on becuase they do State alot of the correct terms. I changed it in my computer as soon as you posted.
I try to learn something new everyday. I will never be perfect but i do strive to be. Thanks again.
BTW I thought the Holiday Inn thing was funny.

Two points.

1. Regarding the ORIGINAL question from MaMa Mount -
Rick showed a picture of what it looks like to see the gable end of an attic wall from the inside, when no sheathing is installed. I have seen this a few times. What I was to later discover was that only the attic portion of the siding was done this way. Usually I was able to confirm from the outside by lying on the ground and looking up under the bottom edge of the siding, that there was sheathing installed in the main portions of the walls up to the top plate. And usually with a moisture barrier (oopps - a WRB [water-resistive barrier]). For some reason they skimped on the attic walls. Similar to when I see Vinyl siding on homes, where there is WRB installed on the main walls of the house, but not on the exterior walls of the attached garage. (how much money did that really save the builder?!?)

2. I got caught in the discussion about how to seal the butt ends of Hardiplank in a new home inspection a few months ago. Before that I had not realized hat James Hardie had changed their original install recommendations.
- "James Hardie does not recommend the use of caulk at field butt joints."
What the installation instructions DO recommend, however, is a "joint flashing" behind each butt joint.

That's all fine and dandy, but has anyone seen one of these now
invisible "Joint Flashings"? Who sells these flashings? and what do they look like? and how can an inspector confirm their installation after construction is complete?

Another reason that I am not a big fan of Hardiplank like everyone seems to be.

Terry there are several companies that make up the flashing one is Bear skins. The product has a adhisive back and goes behind the butt joint. Home depot and lowes sells them. Hardie plank makes a alum flashing as well. If you look under the butt joint with a flashlight you can usuall see if there is flashing or not. In this area if there is caulking there is most likely not any flashing. But I have see a few that there are both. Hope this helps.
mark

For those states still using the 2003 IRC for one and two family dwellings, a WRB is required behind all types of exterior siding except vinyl. The 2006 IRC requires WRB behind all exterior siding.

Originally Posted by Terry Beck

That's all fine and dandy, but has anyone seen one of these now
invisible "Joint Flashings"? Who sells these flashings? and what do they look like? and how can an inspector confirm their installation after construction is complete?.

Terry,
That joint flashing used to be optional joint treatment.

In 2001, the HardiePlank installation instructions specified butt field joints be installed such that there was "moderate contact, or maximum 1/8" gap".

The 2005 HardiePlank installation instructions specified butt field joints be installed such that there was "moderate contact", with a side note stating "Space plank according to joint treatment either in "moderate contact" (joints not caulked) or in accordance with the caulking manufacturer's written application instructions (joints caulked), see details at right." The detail at right is where it showed the "moderate contact" joint treatment.

The 2007 HardiePlank installation instructions specified butt field joints be installed such that there were two joint treatment options: Option 1 and Option 2.

Option 1 brought in the "joint flashing" and "install planks in moderate contact"

Option 2 was "leave appropriate gap between planks, then caulk***" with the *** note being "***Apply caulk in accordance with caulk manufacturer's written application instructions."

The 2008 HardiePlank installation instructions only show the Option 1 joint treatment method with the "joint flashing", with Option 2 caulk method having been removed from the installation instructions ... except that for Canada - they still show the January 2006 installation instructions, which includes both Option 1 "joint flashing" and Option 2 "caulk". Go figure.

Given all the changes from the manufacturer and just general confusion surrounding the joints of this siding you'd think there have been past problems.

Is anyone aware of any past known problems with this material, particularly the joints?

In my area this siding is on at least 90% of houses built in the last 10 years and I honestly cannot recall a performance problem with this siding.

Matt,

I've heard a lot about the ends chipping, cracking, etc., which probably resulted from the "moderate contact" which became "heavy contact" with expansion.

Then, once they pulled the joint open, they ran into other problems, or at least other perceived problems ("likely problem" in my opinion).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Matt,

I've heard a lot about the ends chipping, cracking, etc., which probably resulted from the "moderate contact" which became "heavy contact" with expansion.

Then, once they pulled the joint open, they ran into other problems, or at least other perceived problems ("likely problem" in my opinion).

That makes sense... I do, however, see countless installation problems. Usually fasteners too close to the edges and larger than called for gaps between planks and at edges. Usually, done by homeowners. I think the installers have had their noses rubbed in it so many times that they do a pretty good job.

One of the things I see a lot of are face nail installations where the wrong nails were used, the heads are way too small. The specified nail heads are 0.267" diameter (roughly 1/4" diameter) and the nails typically used have a head which is only about 1/8" in diameter.

Here are the current installation instructions for Hardie lap (West)

http://jameshardie.com/pdf/install/i...plank_west.pdf

They only "require" joint flashing with their colorplus siding.
Which means caulking the butt joints is still allowed. (have fun maintaining the caulk seals annually)

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

They only "require" joint flashing with their colorplus siding.
Which means caulking the butt joints is still allowed. (have fun maintaining the caulk seals annually)

I'm not finding that in there. Would you point it out for me?

Thanks,

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Given all the changes from the manufacturer and just general confusion surrounding the joints of this siding you'd think there have been past problems.

Is anyone aware of any past known problems with this material, particularly the joints?

In my area this siding is on at least 90% of houses built in the last 10 years and I honestly cannot recall a performance problem with this siding.

Most of the problems i have encountered are nails to close to the edges causing the siding to crack or break. It needs to be kept dry not in the rain or snow before it is installed. If not it will most likely buckle. The reps also recommend having all sides painted. If not it will most likely buckle and warp. The siding will follow the contour of what is underneath. So if the wall is uneven so will the siding be. I have seen contractors install it this way.

Same stuff here Mark.... I get down to the Salem area a couple times a month so we're likely looking at the same stuff. And it's the same up in Portland, too.

I read over the latest instsall instructions (Thanks Brandon) and I have to wonder a couple things...

With all the changes in the install guidlines I'm left a bit confused as to how to inspect and report on this stuff now. The possible scenarios I forsee with respect to the joints between planks:

Tight no caulking
Tight with caulking
Not tight with caulking
Not tight without caulking
Can see flashing strips or pieces, tight joints (presumably, with no caulking)
Can't see flashing strips or pieces, non-tight joints (presumably, with no caulking)

When was it installed? What was required then? Does that matter?

I just look it over, look for broken pieces, nails too close to the edge and if there are gaps that I can see into I look for flashing or paper lapped properly

How do you guys handle this?

Originally Posted by Matt Fellman

Same stuff here Mark.... I get down to the Salem area a couple times a month so we're likely looking at the same stuff. And it's the same up in Portland, too.

I read over the latest instsall instructions (Thanks Brandon) and I have to wonder a couple things...

With all the changes in the install guidlines I'm left a bit confused as to how to inspect and report on this stuff now. The possible scenarios I forsee with respect to the joints between planks:

Tight no caulking
Tight with caulking
Not tight with caulking
Not tight without caulking
Can see flashing strips or pieces, tight joints (presumably, with no caulking)
Can't see flashing strips or pieces, non-tight joints (presumably, with no caulking)

When was it installed? What was required then? Does that matter?

I just look it over, look for broken pieces, nails too close to the edge and if there are gaps that I can see into I look for flashing or paper lapped properly

How do you guys handle this?

Hey matt how are you. Yes i have done inspections all around oregon, portland, Lincoln city, Detroit lake and Corvallis.
I use this comment for caulking.
Caulking is showing normal wear and tear and is separating or missing at various joints, trim, windows and doors around the structure. Recommended further evaluation and correction as needed by a licensed contractor to reduce the chance of moisture.

Only if the other ares are having problems. Here (oregon) since we get so much moisture and also inspect for P&D items. Moisture anywhere is a problem. If the siding is laped and flashed or caulked properly there is usually no problems. But if not i have found mold and rot on the osb and sill plates in the crawlspace from it leaking thru the siding. Some times even past the Moisture barrier Opps i mean WRB Is that like a WMD (WEAPON OF MASS DISTRUCTION). As a rule find the largest area that the siding is on and look down the wall. there you will see if there is a problem with the siding. Like buckling or sags, As for cracks or improper nails. Call em as you would a siding problem and refer to a licensed siding contractor
Cracked siding on north side at the bottom section marked in red tape. Recommend further evaluation and correction by a licensed siding contractor to reduce the chance of moisture damage. Every Siding job i have inspected it has either flashing or caulking. sometimes i have seen both. Here with a moisture problem that we have is should deflect all moisture to the ground or their is a problem. And if hardie plank is put over other siding. i Put

Siding has more than one layer. Unable to determine the condition of structure underneath first layer. May desire a siding contractor to remove pieces as needed to determine the condition.
Where do you inspect at. I am mainly salem and corvallis. Are u in OREIA?

Jerry,

Look at the note right above Figure 2....

Matt, I am actually heading off to work-- feels kinda weird.
I'll get back on board this evening.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Here are the current installation instructions for Hardie lap (West)

http://jameshardie.com/pdf/install/i...plank_west.pdf

They only "require" joint flashing with their colorplus siding.
Which means caulking the butt joints is still allowed. (have fun maintaining the caulk seals annually)

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I'm not finding that in there. Would you point it out for me?

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Jerry,

Look at the note right above Figure 2....

Brandon,

I know that is there, but that does not state what your said, so I was wondering where you got it from.

That states that ColorPlus is required to have the joint flashing, and that it is recommended for the regular primed stuff too.

What that does NOT state is what you said about caulking ("Which means caulking the butt joints is still allowed."). In fact, that states just the opposite of what you said, that says "James Hardies does not recommend the use of caulk at the field butt joints."

What that does NOT state is what you said about caulking ("Which means caulking the butt joints is still allowed."). In fact, that states just the opposite of what you said, that says "James Hardies does not recommend the use of caulk at the field butt joints."
__________________

They specify that flashing is "required'' with their ColorPlus, and do not require flashing with their other siding. It is their recommended application. If flashing is not installed, then caulk is required by default (R703.3.2).

When was it installed? What was required then? Does that matter?

I just look it over, look for broken pieces, nails too close to the edge and if there are gaps that I can see into I look for flashing or paper lapped properly

How do you guys handle this?

The nails too close to the edge thing is pretty much bogus as far as I am concerned. If they must use nails, I'd rather see nails in the butt joint with the head holding the siding tight. Nails within about 3-4" of the butt joints crack the siding, so I usually only write up actual problems, such as cracks unless it is new construction.

The flashing is easy to look for..... if the butt joints are tight, I slip my screwdriver in beneath the siding and twist/ pull just enough to shine a beam of light in.

Their requirements change so often, I don't try to keep track of what was required when. On new construction, I hammer down on everything. Contractors hate me for this, and I have had near fisticuffs over writing up the lack of a gap between flashing and siding (90% of new construction homes, including todays).

If the house has been there for a while, I just look for things that I think will be an issue. I almost always write up the lack of flashings at trim protrusions. I write up deck ledgers butted directly against the siding with no flashing. I write up concrete poured against the siding. I write up missing kick out flashing and gutters butted against siding. There are plenty of others, but those are my main ones off hand for older places.

Sometimes, it depends on my mood for the day.....

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

If flashing is not installed, then caulk is required by default (R703.3.2).

No. not allowed to caulk it.

R703.3.2 does not apply.

R703.3 Wood, hardboard and wood structural panel siding. HardiePlank siding is NONE of those.

You want to go to: R703.10 Fiber cement siding.

- R703.10.2 Horizontal lap siding. Lap siding shall be lapped a minimum of 11/4 inches (32 mm) and shall have the ends sealed with caulking, covered with an H-section joint cover, or located over a strip of flashing. Lap siding courses may be installed with the fastener heads exposed or concealed, according to approved manufacturers’ installation instructions.

That means that the HardiePlank "required for ColorPlus" and "recommended for primed" is *REQUIRED* for both.

Still, though, NO CAULKING as the manufacturer's installation instructions say not to caulk the butt joints.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

The nails too close to the edge thing is pretty much bogus as far as I am concerned. If they must use nails, I'd rather see nails in the butt joint with the head holding the siding tight. Nails within about 3-4" of the butt joints crack the siding, so I usually only write up actual problems, such as cracks unless it is new construction.

Wait a minute, this coming from the guy how just tried to force caulking on the joints because he thought it was required, but you are now totally discounting the REQUIRED NAIL LOCATIONS?????

R703.3 Wood, hardboard and wood structural panel siding. HardiePlank siding is NONE of those.

You want to go to: R703.10 Fiber cement siding.

- R703.10.2 Horizontal lap siding. Lap siding shall be lapped a minimum of 11/4 inches (32 mm) and shall have the ends sealed with caulking, covered with an H-section joint cover, or located over a strip of flashing. Lap siding courses may be installed with the fastener heads exposed or concealed, according to approved manufacturers’ installation instructions.

That's what I get for pulling a code out from memory, thanks for posting the correct one.

That means that the HardiePlank "required for ColorPlus" and "recommended for primed" is *REQUIRED* for both.

Still, though, NO CAULKING as the manufacturer's installation instructions say not to caulk the butt joints.

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If James Hardie "required" flashing at all joints and not just the ColorPlus, they would say so. They already have the "require" word in their vocabulary (installation instructions). I stick with flashing "required" for ColorPlus. Flashing "not required" for others (I wish it were required)

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. If James Hardie "required" flashing at all joints and not just the ColorPlus, they would say so. They already have the "require" word in their vocabulary (installation instructions). I stick with flashing "required" for ColorPlus. Flashing "not required" for others (I wish it were required)

YOU can stick with that, but what James Hardie does not "require" ... THE CODE DOES "require".

Thus, regardless, the flashing IS "required" for both types - one type requires it by the manufacturer and the other type requires it by the code, and the siding installation must meet BOTH the code AND the manufacturer's installation instructions.

Wait a minute, this coming from the guy how just tried to force caulking on the joints because he thought it was required, but you are now totally discounting the REQUIRED NAIL LOCATIONS?????

The required nails are blind nailed-- we don't face nail over here, can't say I've ever seen it. The contractors end up adding face nails (where not required) to hold siding tight. These are the nails I am talking about. Nothing says you can't add more nails than required

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

The required nails are blind nailed-- we don't face nail over here, can't say I've ever seen it. The contractors end up adding face nails (where not required) to hold siding tight. These are the nails I am talking about. Nothing says you can't add more nails than required

Read the first line on the second page above "FACE NAILING" (which is what those "extra nails" are). Yep, in the link *you* provided.

It says "Face Nailing should only be used where required for high wind areas and must not be used in conjunction with Blind Nailing"

The reason is that "blind nailing" holds the top of the board tight against the wall, causing the board to set at an angle against the board under it, and adding "face nails" simply tries to bend the board which is not meant to be bent, which could result in breaking or cracking the board longitudinally.

Yes, "more nails than required" is *not always* a good thing.

YOU can stick with that, but what James Hardie does not "require" ... THE CODE DOES "require".

I think you're picking and choosing what you like from manufacturers installation instructions and the applicable code.

R703.10 Fiber cement siding.

- R703.10.2 Horizontal lap siding. Lap siding shall be lapped a minimum of 11/4 inches (32 mm) and shall have the ends sealed with caulking, covered with an H-section joint cover, or located over a strip of flashing. Lap siding courses may be installed with the fastener heads exposed or concealed, according to approved manufacturers’ installation instructions.

The under- lined section is just what you chose to under- line. The options are: caulk, H joint cover, or flashing.
So, the manufacturer does not require flashing (except for ColorPlus), and the IRC does not....... My opinion stands.

It says "Face Nailing should only be used where required for high wind areas and must not be used in conjunction with Blind Nailing"

In that case, all siding in my area needs to be re- done. Hardi was contacted regarding this issue about a year ago from what I can remember (covered in a post on another forum I frequent). They had no problem with adding nails just at corners or in the butt joints. With the siding following the wall as it does (wavy as heck any more) siding would look pretty crappy without those nails.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

I think you're picking and choosing what you like from manufacturers installation instructions and the applicable code.

Nope.

The James Hardie HardiePlank installation instructions does not want you to use caulk - FOR EITHER one.

Those instructions "require" joint flashing for one, and "recommend" joint flashing for the other.

The under- lined section is just what you chose to under- line. The options are: caulk, H joint cover, or flashing.

So, while the code "allows" that choice, the manufacturer DOES NOT. That leave just one "choice", the one which is "allowed" by both the code and the manufacturer ... "joint flashing".

"Caulk" is not a choice, the manufacture says not to use it.

So, the manufacturer does not require flashing (except for ColorPlus), and the IRC does not....... My opinion stands.

Your opinion stands, still incorrect, and still your opinion. No problem with that, other than you are ... still incorrect.

I hate to go to bed with such a great debate going on--- last post for me.

[quote]
The James Hardie HardiePlank installation instructions does not want you to use caulk - FOR EITHER one.

Those instructions "require" joint flashing for one, and "recommend" joint flashing for the other./QUOTE]

Going in circles on this one I know. They never say they "do not want". They say "not recommended"-- neither of which means "not allowed/ prohibited"

Heck, I mostly agree with what you posted on this one.

So, while the code "allows" that choice, the manufacturer DOES NOT. That leave just one "choice", the one which is "allowed" by both the code and the manufacturer ... "joint flashing".

"Caulk" is not a choice, the manufacture says not to use it.

Show me where Hardi's installations instructions it states "DO NOT CAULK", and I will be happy. Otherwise, we are still looking at 3 options for joint treatment.

Your opinion stands, still incorrect, and still your opinion. No problem with that, other than you are ... still incorrect.

I'd ask Hardi's tech dept. to jump on and read these posts in order to get a definitive answer, but I've never had much luck getting anything in writing from manufacturers. Regarding your last statement....... same to ya.

If the answer was black and white, there really would be no debate after all......

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

They never say they "do not want". They say "not recommended"

Huh?

If someone tells me "I do not want you to spray paint my car black.", it means the same to me as if they had said "I do not recommend you spray paint my car black.", either way ... no way am I gonna do that!

The answer is "black and white", but you must first remove your sunglasses to see the difference.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

The required nails are blind nailed-- we don't face nail over here, can't say I've ever seen it. The contractors end up adding face nails (where not required) to hold siding tight. These are the nails I am talking about. Nothing says you can't add more nails than required

In not high wind areas I still nailed the bottom. I used a finish nailer. It offered just enough to secure with out chance of cracking or breakage. Thjose projects years later had no problems. Always used caulking. Good, or should I say top quality caulking. Never had an issue.

So what if you need to recaulk down the road. That is what home maintenance is all about. If people do not maintain their home then what could they possibly have to bitch about.

This whole thing is insane. Do it this way here and do it this way there. In the instructions. No longer in the instructions.

Who cares. Install it, caulk it with a great caulking as one always should. Yearly at most the outside of everyones home should be inspected for maintenance or gee, maybe everytime they mow their lawn, look over at the house.

Every scenario for every idiots idea of what home maintenance is rediculous. Oh man, all the joints have opened up in under a year. I say, GOOD. Now that they are open put some good quality caulking in them. Even hardi plank if kept caulked and painted and MAINTAINED will have very little expansion and contraction due to moisture as any product well maintained.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Even hardi plank if kept caulked and painted and MAINTAINED will have very little expansion and contraction due to moisture as any product well maintained.

The expansion is not due to moisture, it is thermal expansion and contraction.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The expansion is not due to moisture, it is thermal expansion and contraction.

Jerry I have a issue with this because I installed the product on my moms house and the rep for hardie plank stated to me do not leave it outside in the rain. If the moisture content is to high when installed it will cause problems with the siding.
I beileve this is the reason the primer is only good for six months. And the panel needs to be sealed. Due to moisture expansion not thermal expansion.
The panel has cementuis content and fiberglass and wood products. All of which have thermal expansion. But the wood also has moisture expansion as well.
Mark

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

Ms. Mount,

Did you happen to see something like this?

rick

Oooh yea. Like I've heard a salesman say once:

"LET Me explain the Benefits of 'Flow Through Ventilation'!"

Its just not proper, and one looses so much shear strength, structural stability in the structure. It's simply cutting corners and doing a crummy job. The home owners should be aware of it, but its not up to us to decide for them. Only to report. However, we could raise a stink to the government building codes divisions about it though. . .

I am buying a new house that has HardiPlank siding on it. I can see that most of the joints are backed with metal flashing, but some of them are backed with some form of felt or tar paper flashing. Is this acceptable, or should I require the builder to replace all the non-metal flashing to metal flashing?

Thanks,
Glen

Glen, according to Hardie's installation best practices manual, they only call out a joint flashing, does not specify what type of material. It also has a footnote **AS REQUIRED BY LOCAL BUILDING CODE**. You may want to check with your local building inspectors office.

Originally Posted by Glen Joyner

I am buying a new house that has HardiPlank siding on it. I can see that most of the joints are backed with metal flashing, but some of them are backed with some form of felt or tar paper flashing. Is this acceptable, or should I require the builder to replace all the non-metal flashing to metal flashing?

Thanks,
Glen

Glen There are products out there that are not metal that are acceptable for flashing. One is called bearskins. Again check with the builder and ask what they used. and if it meets local codes.
Mark Northrup

Also keep in mind that asphalt would stain out below the joints with felt, and rust could eventually stain out below galvanized metal.

Thanks for the replies. I'll check the Washington County building codes and ask the builder exactly what they used.
Glen