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  1. #1
    Joe Billman's Avatar
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    Default Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    My area south of Houston was hit pretty hard by Hurricane Ike, with lots of flooding. I am getting inquiries from homeowners about replacing the damaged sheathing on brick veneer homes from the inside. This is the method insurance companies are apparently paying for. I cannot find any reference to methods, or contractors that have any idea how to do this. Most of these homes are older, with gypsum sheathing and/or 40# felt. I can understand why the insurance companies do not want to pay to remove and reinstall the brick. Is there any documentation on this issue?
    Thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    It can't be done, and be done properly.

    No way to install the through the wall flashing that is required on all brick veneer homes.

    No way to properly flash around window, doors , etc.

    A few questions to ask the folks that are doing it:

    How are they going to bend a sheet of OSB to go between the studs?

    How are they going to install a moisture barrier on the wall?

    This practice needs to be brought to the local medias attention, and stopped. To bad the Houston consumer investigator icon Marvin Zindler is no longer around!

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 02-13-2009 at 11:23 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    I completely agree with Scott.

    No way that can be done anywhere near anything resembling "properly".

    I doubt that can be done anywhere near anything even resembling "not properly"

    I only see two choices:

    - 1) Remove the brick veneer and do it properly.

    - 2) Ignore it and don't do it.

    After all, the work is supposed to be permitted and done to code ... oh, right, some areas in Texas do not require permits, but aren't those areas still covered by code?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    I'm with Scott--

    This practice sounds ridiculous.....

    And to add to Scott's list, how are they going to properly tie the brick back to the wall? I know they have those retro- fit connections, but for an entire wall?


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    That's like trying to replace the siding and leave the old paint for the new stuff....


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    I'm with Scott--

    This practice sounds ridiculous.....

    And to add to Scott's list, how are they going to properly tie the brick back to the wall? I know they have those retro- fit connections, but for an entire wall?
    Well, I had that until I went back and re-read the post. Exterior drywall sheathing was used. With exterior drywall they would have nailed the ties into the studs, hopefully.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  7. #7
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    O-boy let an old termite guy have a crack at it... Yes it can be done... each wall has its own problems and approach that one needs to look at. But let say you had an 8' by 12 ' long with 2x4 studs. and backing. just cut out one 1/2 of the wall. frame up the new section on the inside of the home about 1/2" short. apply the new sheathing & paper backing. drill and tap treated wires in the back side of the now exposed brick veneer. stand up the new wall treated the wires into the new wall and set the in place. tie of the wires shore up the new wall and move on to the next section of the wall...

    and yes get plans and permits. Its been a long time but I have done a few small job like this and it work fine. you may even add an adhesive into the mix. I would start with a termite report for the building department and pull your permit under a R&R INKIND With P/T materials.

    Best

    Ron


  8. #8
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Can't be done and meet the fastening schedule of the structural sheathing, not to mention braced wall requirements.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Remas View Post
    Can't be done and meet the fastening schedule of the structural sheathing, not to mention braced wall requirements.
    Why ?

    Well the homes i did it to and got the permits and past inspection and now some 20 years later are still
    standing

    I think some people just sit around and think to much. just get out and do it...

    Best

    Ron


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    One of the problems with replacing the exterior gypsum sheathing is properly reattaching it.

    Especially when there are wall ties holding the brick veneer in place.

    And those wall ties are a problem in that they would originally have been nailed through the original gypsum sheathing to the studs, and that gypsum sheathing is not gone.

    I should say that "Sure ... IT IS POSSIBLE ... to replace the gypsum sheathing without removing the brick and do it properly, ... BUT ... IT SURE WOULD COST A LOT LESS to remove the brick veneer and do it correctly from the outside.

    NOTHING is impossible if you are willing to throw enough money at it.

    Does not mean it will be able to be done right away, or even this decade, or even this century, but, if you are demanding it be done and have enough money, it can be done ... eventually. (Either that or someone will get quite rich trying to make it happen it for you. )

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
    Joe Billman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    I agree, it seems to be a ridiculous idea. Remember, this is the insurance company's excuse to pay only 30% or so of the repair cost to replace the sheathing by removing the brick. The insurance company, naturally declined to furnish a repair procedure.
    The real problems appear to be the brick ties and moisture barrier. The structural aspects could be addressed by installing OSB or other structural sheating on the interior walls, covered by drywall.
    I'm referring these people to their lawyer.
    Thanks for the input.

    Joe Billman


  12. #12
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Yes

    I hate lawyers with more Passion than I wish to express, but.

    I have been following this thread and refuse to add because I think this is about the most stupid thing I ever heard of. These folks need a lawyer bad.

    You CANNOT replace sheathing, vapor barrier and brick ties from the inside and have it be anywhere near correct, period. I have done some of the wildest things in construction but this will not work and be properly functional in any sense. And whaen I say functioning properly I am talking of the sheathing, moisture/vapor barrier and brick ties.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    As a homeowner who is going through something similar, I hope our experience can be of help.

    We're in a situation where one of the defects in our house is with the sheathing. It has to be replaced according to the structural engineer who evaluated our house. It's due to a defective installation.

    Even though all of the interior drywall also has to be replaced due to it's defective condition, the report does not offer repalcing the exterior sheathing from the inside. The drywall is being replaced because it was not thick enough, unrated, defectively installed and fails to provide the code-dictated fire rating.

    The directed repair is to remove the exterior siding, and then to remove and replace the sheathing from the outside. It's the only way to attach it properly. The report is very clear.

    I hope our situation adds a perspective to the thread.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jeffries View Post
    As a homeowner who is going through something similar, I hope our experience can be of help.

    We're in a situation where one of the defects in our house is with the sheathing. It has to be replaced according to the structural engineer who evaluated our house. It's due to a defective installation.

    Even though all of the interior drywall also has to be replaced due to it's defective condition, the report does not offer repalcing the exterior sheathing from the inside. The drywall is being replaced because it was not thick enough, unrated, defectively installed and fails to provide the code-dictated fire rating.

    The directed repair is to remove the exterior siding, and then to remove and replace the sheathing from the outside. It's the only way to attach it properly. The report is very clear.

    I hope our situation adds a perspective to the thread.
    Sorry for all of your problems... It is a mess, but fairly typical of what can be found in new construction!

    You also show why it is so important for folks to have a New home inspected. A Good home inspector would have been able to warn you of the many defects in your home so that you could have walked away before you signed on that dotted line.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    You also show why it is so important for folks to have a New home inspected. A Good home inspector would have been able to warn you of the many defects in your home so that you could have walked away before you signed on that dotted line.

    Scott,

    While that is true, even THE BEST home inspector would not be able to determine is the sheathing was improperly sized, improperly installed, nor of the correct type.

    We DO NOT want to start pitching the idea that Home Inspectors can see all and do all.

    There are limits to what ANY home inspector can do.

    Just making sure that no one thinks hiring a home inspector is going to expose bad sheathing of the design nature. Sure, rotted and decay sheathing at time, but not as John Jefferies described it. There will be things in our way of viewing the sheathing, such as brick veneer, siding (wood, vinyl, HardiePlank, etc.), water-resistive barrier, flashings, insulation, drywall, etc., any of which, and all of which, will keep us from seeing the sheathing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Sorry for all of your problems... It is a mess, but fairly typical of what can be found in new construction!

    You also show why it is so important for folks to have a New home inspected. A Good home inspector would have been able to warn you of the many defects in your home so that you could have walked away before you signed on that dotted line.
    Thanks and I agree - "good" is the key word! We were aware of that issue before we bought this house so we hired two seperate NACHI home inspectors because we wanted to be safe. We figured that we'd have twice the opportunity to find a good inspector. We also hired a third guy for a radon inspection. We got the seperate reports, had things fixed that were identified and moved in. Later other problems showed up.

    We don't fault the inspectors for not identifying some of the problems. Like the sheathing, some were hidden. However, other obvious defects were unidentified, like the missing ceiling insulation in part of the roof and omitted structural components required by code. I guess it was too hard to get to the areas in the cramped conditions.

    If we have to do things again with another house, we've come to a conclusion. We'd go directly to engineers for code compliant inspections. It's what our experience with new construction has forced us to do.

    We will get the house plans, otherwise we won't buy the house if the builder/county won't provide them. We will take them to a structural engineer and have him inspect the house for complaince with the plans and the applicable building codes.

    We'll also pay for a soils engineer to read the soils report and then do his testing. We've found very expensive problems with the builder's non-compliance in this area.

    Then, we will get a plumber and pay him to inspect the plumbing. After that will come a roofer to inspect the roofing and an electrician to inspect the electrical system. Finally, we will pay the fee for an IR inspection of the propery.

    I know it will cost significantly more, but it will save the expense, trouble and problems we are currently experiencing. It's worth the money to save us from an unreputable builder and unskilled/unsupervised labor.

    We will also get people from out of town. Looking back, we've come to the conclusion that small towns make people too familiar with each other. When someone knows the Realtors and builders from previous business, the one-time buyer is put at a disadvantage. He's a one-time pay, but the builders and Realtors represent repeat business or they're buddies on the golf course or members of a local fraternal organization or go to the same church or grew up together or drink beer together at the local watering hole.

    Thanks again for your comments. I've found your posts, and many other ones from other members, very informative while lurking and reading.

    I also know this forum is primarily for the use of Home Inspectors, so rest assured you won't find me pestering with my problems. Perhaps if I have something to add, I might toss it in, but you guys are the experts in helping each other. I look forward to continuing to read your comments and gain some insight into the problems being found today. Thanks again everyone!

    Last edited by John Jeffries; 02-15-2009 at 12:50 PM.

  17. #17
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    Wink Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    I spoke to a PA, Public Adjuster, I know about this topic and got this reply: "If one looks into the flood adjuster manual they will find a paper written
    by a Texas engineer that describes how the described procedure can be
    executed. This procedure was developed for an NFIP GA and somehow it sort
    of got placed into circulation that it is the preferred method of repairs
    for NFIP. In truth it has no relationship to NFIP but many Flood Adjusters
    think it is an NFIP procedure. I would agree with the consensus among your
    brethren that it is not a practical methodology for the problems of the
    wetted sheathing. I have won a few battles on this issue. I have a copy of
    the report in my flood papers somewhere."

    I don't know if this helps, but wanted to add it because I feel that our insurance companies for the premiums we pay do not provide the promised coverage. Just my feelings.

    Joseph, Palm Bch County, Fl.
    HomeSafeSouthFlorida.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    One question

    If this damage is from flood then all else is out the window. Flooding compared to proper work done to keep rain and wind driven rain out is 2 separate issues all together. Did this damage come from a hurricane.

    Hurricane wind driven rain is a bit different than just simple thunderstorm rain. A hurricane wind will blow water into about anything. High water won't keep anything out either.

    As far as the missing insul in the attic and you say the space was tight, well I go thru attics but when it gets to a point of crawling and squeezing I am most won't go to those places.

    As far as wanting to hire all those folks to inspect everything a season phase home inspector or even one step further, a home inspector with ICC certs would be all you need. A phase inspections from one that is seasoned in inspection would have caught about all, if not all, of it anyway. As far as missing structural items in the attic. How do you know that. No matter what inspector you get the only way to truly know what size and how many supports you need for that particular design would be an engineer. A span chart will only tell one so much. The detail of load is something else all together and can only be designed for that structure.

    As far as code compliant for that structure and an engineer being a home inspector, they are 2 different things. A home inspector may know far more about some areas of the entire home than any engineer may. Engineer is not the magic word for all being right. We see architectural and engineers drawings all the time that leave us scratching our heads and questioning all the time.

    An IR inspection is helpful but can in many cases be very vague and deceiving. A phase inspection is what you need. Wind, temp humidity etc can render an IR inspection (in some cases) pretty useless. To see the building as it goes up and inspect all phases of construction is the way to go.

    The soil is "engineered" before homes are built on the sites by a soil engineer. Maybe bringing one in just before you foundation hole is dug may make some difference. If that is your concern spend an extra 5 grand on a full pier system before the foundation goes in. You will never lose money on it and will enhance the sale of the home in the future 10 fold. Full piers, full gutter and inground drainage and proper slope of the soil will always get a fantasic return for your money.

    Just some ideas and of course my humble opinion.


  19. #19
    Judy Norris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    My home was flooded with 42 inches of water from Hurricane Ike. I continue to battle with the insurance adjustor, who only allowed $3700.00 to repair 4 feet of the rigid board along the perimeter of my brick veneer house (2500 sq ft home). He quoted on his report "NFIP Method # 2." I pushed to receive this information, since I could not find it anywhere on the internet and he reluctantly sent it to me. In actuality, this is not a method proposed by the the National Flood Insurance Program as they so confidently include on their reports. I am not a contractor, but realize the integrity of my brick and house would be jeopardized by this method of cutting the brick ties, cutting the studs in half, removing that half of the cut wall, attaching the new rigid board and replacing in the wall. There is no way to seal the board or attach the brick ties. In summary, this is not, in my opinion, a way to replace the rigid board and restore the home to the pre Ike standard.

    One contractor recommended using some type of spray foam and I am not familiar with this method. Any thoughts? How would one ensure the space between the brick and the rigid board?

    Last edited by Judy Norris; 03-07-2009 at 08:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Judy,

    As much as your insurance company does not want to pay for it, the only proper way to replace the sheathing on the inside a brick veneer covered frame wall is to first deconstruct the brick wall.

    I.e., remove the brick veneer, remove the brick ties, remove the WRB, remove the sheathing, *IF* the studs are also bad then the drywall inside will need to be removed and new studs installed, properly securing the new studs to the top and bottom plates, replace any and all electrical wiring and equipment which was at and below the water line, then (and only then) should the reconstruction be started.

    If there are any ducts at or below the water line those should also be replaced.

    That is the only way to ensure the proper attachment of: the studs to the structure, the sheathing to the structure, the brick veneer to the structure, and the integrity of the electrical system.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    I agree 101% with Jerry..

    I would just quit screwing around with the insurance company. File a complaint with the state insurance commissioner and find an attorney that will work on a contingency fee. At this stage of the game you need to just get the work done, before another storm hits.

    Also, you need to look at the walls. When a home is flooded the pressure of the water on the inside can bow the walls on the structure. It all depends on how much water was in the home and how quick it left the home. After Katrina with homes on the MS gulf coast, I saw many homes that had horizontal cracks in the brick from the tidal surge. The water came in quick stayed for about an hour and went back out to sea.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    In Florida the answer to that problem is quite simple: raise the structure so the lowest habitable floor is above the flood level (and you have/had a water line showing where that level is) and the structure below that flood level has to be a flood resistant construction type (which basically excludes wood framing from serving as the first floor which could get flooded).

    Thus, in your case, there would be two options: 1) raise the existing structure and build with either pilings or a concrete block structure below it; 2) raze the existing structure and build new at the proper height, with either pilings or a concrete block structure below it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Has there been any advancements in replacing the OSB from the inside without removing brick? We have termite damage and the Adjuster wants us to replace the OSB from the inside. A contractor we had on site was perplexed and did not see how this could be done. I called the adjuster and asked and he informed me that this method was designed by engineers that had dealt with a lot of the flood houses in New Orleans.

    This is the method listed in the adjuster's report:
    Cut damaged builder board and between studs. Remove nails with reciprocating saw and remaing sheathing behind the studs. Install 1x2 furring strips to new builder board cut 16" OC and install between existing/new studs. Apply foam seal into the joints of the board. A toggle bolt will be used in place of any damaged brick ties and a cross brace will be installed, drilled through and into the existing brick. The bolt will then be installed, drilled through into the exisitng brick. The bolt will then be installed through the drill hole.

    • Is this a good fix?
    • What about the back sides of the studs?
    • What about the Tyvec paper?
    • What about anything else I just dont know?



  24. #24
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    Has there been any advancements in replacing the OSB from the inside without removing brick? We have termite damage and the Adjuster wants us to replace the OSB from the inside. A contractor we had on site was perplexed and did not see how this could be done. I called the adjuster and asked and he informed me that this method was designed by engineers that had dealt with a lot of the flood houses in New Orleans.

    This is the method listed in the adjuster's report:
    Cut damaged builder board and between studs. Remove nails with reciprocating saw and remaing sheathing behind the studs. Install 1x2 furring strips to new builder board cut 16" OC and install between existing/new studs. Apply foam seal into the joints of the board. A toggle bolt will be used in place of any damaged brick ties and a cross brace will be installed, drilled through and into the existing brick. The bolt will then be installed, drilled through into the exisitng brick. The bolt will then be installed through the drill hole.

    • Is this a good fix?
    • What about the back sides of the studs?
    • What about the Tyvec paper?
    • What about anything else I just dont know?
    It cannot be done properly from inside.

    If an engineer is willing to sign off on it, *I* would be very leery of anything and everything else that engineer signs off on.

    There are too many conditions which must be met for that to be possible and "done properly", not only with the WRB on the outside (the brick side), the joints being sealed on the outside (the brick side), the fact that the structural panels will now no longer add the original structural load resisting designed for that structure, and many more problems.

    The insurance companies are trying to save a buck, however, the NEW WORK (the repairs) are required to be preformed to current code and to not adversely affect the existing structure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It cannot be done properly from inside.

    If an engineer is willing to sign off on it, *I* would be very leery of anything and everything else that engineer signs off on.

    There are too many conditions which must be met for that to be possible and "done properly", not only with the WRB on the outside (the brick side), the joints being sealed on the outside (the brick side), the fact that the structural panels will now no longer add the original structural load resisting designed for that structure, and many more problems.

    The insurance companies are trying to save a buck, however, the NEW WORK (the repairs) are required to be preformed to current code and to not adversely affect the existing structure.
    Another case of credentials meaning squat.

    I hate the fact that so many rely on ones credentials alone to determine if what they say is all well and good.

    I am an engineer. What I say is the rule and what I put on paper is all well and good. Geeeees


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Thanks for the info. I have a call into the Chief Builing Inspector and a couple of "Structural Engineers" to check into this more. The Adjustor sent my contractor some additional information with another description of this method of repair. Once I get a copy of it, I will post it for you to see.

    Thanks again.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Attached is the PDF from the Adjustor describing the procedure. I found out that this was developed by 2 Engineers that work for a compnay called National Frorensic Consultants, Inc. in Philly. I have a Structural Engineer meeting me at my house this afternoon. Based on the phone call, he thinks this is a load of crap as well.

    Attached Files Attached Files

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    Attached is the PDF from the Adjustor describing the procedure. I found out that this was developed by 2 Engineers that work for a compnay called National Frorensic Consultants, Inc. in Philly. I have a Structural Engineer meeting me at my house this afternoon. Based on the phone call, he thinks this is a load of crap as well.

    If that document is referring to what I am thinking it is, with the use of the term "Black Board", which is not structural and does not add structural strength to the wall or building, then you are only dealing with the water-resisting barrier (WRB) aspect.

    Of course, though, you would be trying to install that stuff (Black Board) back in place with either metal diagonal bracing or let-in diagonal bracing installed.

    Either way, the Black Board would not be installed or nailed as required.

    "Black Board", as I am thinking of it, is that asphalt impregnated fibrous board not-unlike Homasote Board, something like this: http://www.homasote.com/Installation...lSheathing.pdf

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  29. #29
    Todd Winkle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    I spoke with the Chief Building Inspector of Baton Rouge and he is reviewing the doc, but stated that based on what I read him, this will not work. I also had a Structural Engineer on site and he was here 5 minutes, saw the damage, read the doc and said there was no way it would work. He's sending me a report so that I can use it in negotiations with the Insurance company. We are also calling a brick layer we know tonight to come out tomorrow to give an estimate on the R/R of the bricks.

    FUN...FUN...FUN!

    Thanks for the info


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    I spoke with the Chief Building Inspector of Baton Rouge and he is reviewing the doc, but stated that based on what I read him, this will not work. I also had a Structural Engineer on site and he was here 5 minutes, saw the damage, read the doc and said there was no way it would work. He's sending me a report so that I can use it in negotiations with the Insurance company. We are also calling a brick layer we know tonight to come out tomorrow to give an estimate on the R/R of the bricks.

    FUN...FUN...FUN!

    Thanks for the info
    Call a Public Adjuster, they work for YOU ... NOT FOR the insurance company.

    National Association of Public Insurance Adjusters - NAPIA

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    That document is from a "hired gun". National Forensic Consultants, Inc work for the insurance companies to help them limit their losses.

    It will not work! Plus their cost per SF and for the windows, plumbing, electrical, etc., are way off base. I'm assuming that those figures also include demo and reinstall?

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    too many ppl saying that I can't be done properly kind of intimidate me until I heard Ron's post ...almost nothing is impossible on these days...without having the money being a factor I wold say that I believe it can be done and be done right ..maybe not in the normal way, though


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joao Vieira View Post
    too many ppl saying that I can't be done properly kind of intimidate me until I heard Ron's post ...almost nothing is impossible on these days...without having the money being a factor I wold say that I believe it can be done and be done right ..maybe not in the normal way, though
    If money is not a factor then why not do it the correct way instead of trying to cut corners by not removing the brick and properly reinstalling it.

    Yes, just about anything is possible and can be made to work even though it might not be correct.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    Attached is the PDF from the Adjustor describing the procedure. I found out that this was developed by 2 Engineers that work for a compnay called National Frorensic Consultants, Inc. in Philly. I have a Structural Engineer meeting me at my house this afternoon. Based on the phone call, he thinks this is a load of crap as well.


    I'm curious what was the outcome of your situation, if possible please let me know, thanks for you help.


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by dawn roshto View Post
    I'm curious what was the outcome of your situation, if possible please let me know, thanks for you help.
    Same here... Could you please update us on if NFIP agreed to pay to have the bricks R/R?


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    One of the problems with replacing the exterior gypsum sheathing is properly reattaching it.

    Especially when there are wall ties holding the brick veneer in place.

    And those wall ties are a problem in that they would originally have been nailed through the original gypsum sheathing to the studs, and that gypsum sheathing is not gone.

    I should say that "Sure ... IT IS POSSIBLE ... to replace the gypsum sheathing without removing the brick and do it properly, ... BUT ... IT SURE WOULD COST A LOT LESS to remove the brick veneer and do it correctly from the outside.

    NOTHING is impossible if you are willing to throw enough money at it.

    Does not mean it will be able to be done right away, or even this decade, or even this century, but, if you are demanding it be done and have enough money, it can be done ... eventually. (Either that or someone will get quite rich trying to make it happen it for you. )
    Jerry,
    After the flood in Houston in 2015 I was sent a document from Donan Engineering who was hired to inspect/review the flood damage to the sheathing. I researched and showed the 1959 sheathing was not water resistant/proof. I contended that the brick should be removed to replace the sheathing and was denied. The engineer for Donan sent a document "REPAIR OF WOOD FRAMED STRUCTURES WITH BRICK MASONRY VENEERS - Prepared for FEMA". When I requested from Donan the author of this document and if this method had been approved by FEMA, they refused to answer and would not return calls. I sent this document to FEMA Denton office to the person who is responsible for FEMA Technical Bulletins and he said this was not a FEMA TB. I also sent the document to the City of Houston (COH) engineering dept and talked with one of their engineers who said this method would not maintain structural integrity of the house. I agree with this assessment. I had a contractor review the repair document and quote per that and settled the POL.

    I'd like to find a contractor that has done this before and can quote a legitimate price.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    I spoke with the Chief Building Inspector of Baton Rouge and he is reviewing the doc, but stated that based on what I read him, this will not work. I also had a Structural Engineer on site and he was here 5 minutes, saw the damage, read the doc and said there was no way it would work. He's sending me a report so that I can use it in negotiations with the Insurance company. We are also calling a brick layer we know tonight to come out tomorrow to give an estimate on the R/R of the bricks.

    FUN...FUN...FUN!

    Thanks for the info
    Todd,
    What was your outcome? I did the same thing here in Houston, talked to the COH engineering department and they said the same thing. How did it pass inspection?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Winkle View Post
    I spoke with the Chief Building Inspector of Baton Rouge and he is reviewing the doc, but stated that based on what I read him, this will not work. I also had a Structural Engineer on site and he was here 5 minutes, saw the damage, read the doc and said there was no way it would work. He's sending me a report so that I can use it in negotiations with the Insurance company. We are also calling a brick layer we know tonight to come out tomorrow to give an estimate on the R/R of the bricks.

    FUN...FUN...FUN!

    Thanks for the info
    Todd,
    What was your outcome? I did the same thing here in Houston, talked to the COH engineering department and they said the same thing. How did it pass inspection?


  37. #37
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheathing from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Ryan View Post
    I had a contractor review the repair document and quote per that and settled the POL.

    I'd like to find a contractor that has done this before and can quote a legitimate price.
    Tim,

    I am confused on what you are asking.

    This is what I am getting you saying:

    - You researched that 'repair' method and found out that no one (other than that engineering firm) accepts that repair, not FEMA, not the CoH, etc.

    - You got an estimate from a contractor to make a repair ... what kind of repair - the 'leave the brick veneer' repair?

    - You want an estimate from a contractor to make a repair ... what kind of repair ... take the brick veneer down repair?

    Any good contractor should should be able to give that estimate.

    If that 'leave the brick veneer' repair is spreading, I recommend contacting a local TV news station and going over everything with them ... most/many remind people about buying flooded cars ... this would be worse than that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    After Katrina along the MS Gulfcoast this was a common attempt to repair brick veneer homes. It was pushed by the insurance companies. What many failed to realize was the when the water flooded the homes the pressure also pushed the brick outwards causing more problems. I have yet to see a home have the sheathing properly replaced and the brick maintain its structural integrity.

    This is also attempted with fire damaged homes. I'm pretty sure the same company Donan Engineering is still at it or they are still using the same document.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    After Katrina along the MS Gulfcoast this was a common attempt to repair brick veneer homes. It was pushed by the insurance companies. What many failed to realize was the when the water flooded the homes the pressure also pushed the brick outwards causing more problems. I have yet to see a home have the sheathing properly replaced and the brick maintain its structural integrity.

    This is also attempted with fire damaged homes. I'm pretty sure the same company Donan Engineering is still at it or they are still using the same document.
    I know of two associations which have the money and means to hire a large respected engineering firm challenging that document and that repair, and take it to the news stations, building departments and insurance companies ... the first one which does it would reap the benefits ... if they are looking out for the public as they say they do.

    I am actually surprised that it was not done at Katrina from the calls I got - and if it had been done then ... they would be reaping the benefits again without having to spend any money - just pull the information back out of the bag and hit the news stations, building departments and insurance companies again.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I know of two associations which have the money and means to hire a large respected engineering firm challenging that document and that repair, and take it to the news stations, building departments and insurance companies ... the first one which does it would reap the benefits ... if they are looking out for the public as they say they do.

    I am actually surprised that it was not done at Katrina from the calls I got - and if it had been done then ... they would be reaping the benefits again without having to spend any money - just pull the information back out of the bag and hit the news stations, building departments and insurance companies again.
    Touch!


  41. #41
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    click link & then circled date to view the fema repair procedure produced by lsu ag...caveat emptor
    it's 8 pgs with numerous pgs of diagrams so won't waste a lot of your time to read the early edition of the sunday funnies

    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://...20brickpdf.pdf

    of course there's no actual author they're the gov & only look out for those with the deepest contribution pockets

    Last edited by BARRY ADAIR; 09-30-2017 at 08:56 AM.
    badair http://www.adairinspection.com Garland, TX 75042 TREC # 4563
    Commercial-Residential-Construction-EIFS-Infrared Thermography
    life is the random lottery of events followed by numerous narrow escapes

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Replace damaged sheating from inside?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARRY ADAIR View Post
    click link & then circled date to view the fema repair procedure produced by lsu ag...caveat emptor

    http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://...20brickpdf.pdf

    of course there's no actual author they're the gov & only look out for those with the deepest contribution pockets
    That is the repair method under discussion - "Prepared for FEMA", not "by" FEMA.

    Neither "for" nor "by" FEMA means or indicates that the repair meets code requirements.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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