Thread: Retrofitting wall frame, sheathing and WRB?

Hello Everybody,
I am desperate for your advice please.
I purchased a house in December. I had a home inspection and a termite inspection before the purchase. It turns out that the inspector did not send me the termite inspection at the time. Not knowing what to expect, I did not even realize that the termite inspection was a separate document. I proceeded to make adjustments according to the home inspection I received.
As I was about to paint the garage drywall, I noticed that the walls were moving as I was leaning on them. To my shocking surprise, I find out that three out of four walls of the attached garage has major termite damage. All the studs and the sheathing will have to replaced. The only reason the floor above the garage has not collapsed completely is the two metal I-beams supported by four metal columns. The outside of the house is brick veneer. Is there a way of replacing the walls without having to replace the brick? I can visualize how the studs and the sheating could be replaced with care, but how could one restore the metal ties supporting the brick veneer, through the wall flashings, water resistive barrier, etc? Please comment. I would appreciate any feedback...
Thanks in advance...

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Originally Posted by Sam Toast

The outside of the house is brick veneer. Is there a way of replacing the walls without having to replace the brick?

Nope. Not really, and not be able to do everything as it is required to be done.

I can visualize how the studs and the sheating could be replaced with care, but how could one restore the metal ties supporting the brick veneer, through the wall flashings, water resistive barrier, etc?

Those are the reasons the answer is no.

The best thing to do is to have a structural engineer come in and design appropriate temporary shoring, those four steel columns and two steel beams 'may' be all that is needed, along with some diagonal bracing to keep it all steady, but you would need a structural engineer to determine that.

Then, well .. then deconstruct those walls from the brick veneer inward, replace the plates, studs, etc., as one would normally construct the wall, finishing with the brick veneer.

Back to another question, though, when did you, if you did, get the termite report?

Was the inspector working "for you" or did your agent "hire their inspector" for you, and, if so, did they get a copy of the report (both reports) and just "forget" to give you the one which would likely have killed the deal?

Sounds to me like you need to see a construction litigation attorney and, depending on your answer to the above question, your inspector and the agent, along with the broker, might all be listed under the title "Defendants".

First though, for consideration to the inspector and agent, *ask them* what they are going to do about it, depending, of course, on your answer to my question.

If your inspector was working for you, *HE/SHE (the inspector) REALLY SCREWED UP* big time this time.

If your inspector was working for you through and by your agent, *BOTH (the agent and the inspector) REALLY SCREWED UP* big time this time. And, because the agent was involved, it is also likely that the agent's broker is also on that same hook.

First, you need to determine if the inspector was 'working for you' or the agent, then notify both, find out what they will do, and, if not satisfactory, contract the attorney.

Thank you very much for your time and thorough answer.
The inspector company was paid by the seller according to the purchase agreement (and was recommended by the seller). This sounds too suspicious at this point, doesn't it? That is me being a first time buyer and having too much trust in people!
The actual inspector who came to do the inspection was working for the inspector company. I received the initial report through e-mail shortly after the inspection from the owner of the inspector company. I contacted both of them as soon as I found out the problem. The owner of the company has not returned my messages yet. The inspector who did the inspection stated that he had given the termite report to the owner and was surprised that he did not send it to me. He e-mailed me a copy after I told him what the problem was on the phone. His "late" termite inspection report indicated the presence of the termite traps around the house and the need to have the house re-treated unless the traps were maintained. It also had a default clause stating "it should be understood that some degree of damage, including hidden damage may be present." Now that I have educated myself in the area of termites (thanks to the public library), I now know that there were plenty of visible tracks on the concrete blocks below the drywall. When I asked the inspector how come he did not investigate further, he stated that he was not allowed to even temporarily move the exposed fiberglass insulation (there were parts of the wall without the drywall) to inspect the wall behind it. If he had checked the electric outlets, he would have also seen that the wall moved.
The original report (without the termite report) was e-mailed to me and to the real estate agent. Oddly enough, nobody including the real estate agent, the bank, or the assessor pointed out to the absence of the termite report. I simply did not know that they were separate reports, since what I received included a bill for a termite inspection report. I know that ignorance is not an excuse, but just an explanation in my case :-)
Thanks for your guidance...

I don't know what the termite licensing laws are like in your state, but in Florida, I would suggest you file a complaint with the pest control licensing board as, in Florida, they can *and do* severely discipline and fine inspectors, suspending licenses, revoking licenses, with fines up to $10,000 ... in Florida, it is serious business.

your toast sorry sam but someone was gonna say it. you should have hired your own inspector for everything in my opinion. i think you should look into an attorney as jerry suggested or lick your wounds and move on.

Sompen smells funny here Sam, and I'm not sure which direction it is coming from? I've never seen a mortgage company finalize the loan, without a WDO letter in there sweaty hand, that was less than 30 days old. How did that happen?

Originally Posted by Sam Toast

The inspector company was paid by the seller according to the purchase agreement (and was recommended by the seller). This sounds too suspicious at this point, doesn't it?

Sam,

This is how the attorney will likely be lining the defendants up: Seller (failure to disclose - *HE* paid for the inspection and had it done for him, *HE* was the client of the home inspector); home inspector (he will be brought in 'because' he was a willing participant of the 'work for the seller highly unusual arrangement' and code thus be found to share some of the blame, deserved or not, he probably will be, and he should have had enough sense to make sure a copy of the report went to both parties - the buyer and the seller, and by "copy of the report" I mean "everything he did", none of this 'I didn't realize you didn't have the termite report crapola', he should have made sure *the report* ... *all* of *the report* ... was in both parties hands.

This should be a lesson to all HIs who work these kinds of deals, MAKE SURE that all parties get a copy of the report, otherwise, ... well, otherwise you could end up like that HI will likely end up - as a cooked goose, a thoroughly cooked goose.

Sam, I suspect that the next contact you should be making is that to an attorney who specializes in construction litigation and real estate litigation.

Originally Posted by Sam Toast

Thank you very much for your time and thorough answer.
The inspector company was paid by the seller according to the purchase agreement (and was recommended by the seller). This sounds too suspicious at this point, doesn't it? That is me being a first time buyer and having too much trust in people!
The actual inspector who came to do the inspection was working for the inspector company. I received the initial report through e-mail shortly after the inspection from the owner of the inspector company. I contacted both of them as soon as I found out the problem. The owner of the company has not returned my messages yet. The inspector who did the inspection stated that he had given the termite report to the owner and was surprised that he did not send it to me. He e-mailed me a copy after I told him what the problem was on the phone. His "late" termite inspection report indicated the presence of the termite traps around the house and the need to have the house re-treated unless the traps were maintained. It also had a default clause stating "it should be understood that some degree of damage, including hidden damage may be present." Now that I have educated myself in the area of termites (thanks to the public library), I now know that there were plenty of visible tracks on the concrete blocks below the drywall. When I asked the inspector how come he did not investigate further, he stated that he was not allowed to even temporarily move the exposed fiberglass insulation (there were parts of the wall without the drywall) to inspect the wall behind it. If he had checked the electric outlets, he would have also seen that the wall moved.
The original report (without the termite report) was e-mailed to me and to the real estate agent. Oddly enough, nobody including the real estate agent, the bank, or the assessor pointed out to the absence of the termite report. I simply did not know that they were separate reports, since what I received included a bill for a termite inspection report. I know that ignorance is not an excuse, but just an explanation in my case :-)
Thanks for your guidance...

Any pictures of the concrete below the drywall for signs of termites or any pictures at all ?

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Sompen smells funny here Sam, and I'm not sure which direction it is coming from? I've never seen a mortgage company finalize the loan, without a WDO letter in there sweaty hand, that was less than 30 days old. How did that happen?

FHA and VA loans almost always ask that a termite inspection be performed but most conventional lenders do not.

Personally I think that if I were to be leding someone, someone elses money I would make it mandatory for a home inspection and termite inspection. Shoot, never mind someone elses money, if I were lending them my money I would make it a requirement for both.

Sam, did you sign a contract with the home inspector and or the pest inspector? If not then the seller was the client and the only person that was entitled to the report.

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

FHA and VA loans almost always ask that a termite inspection be performed but most conventional lenders do not.

Personally I think that if I were to be leding someone, someone elses money I would make it mandatory for a home inspection and termite inspection. Shoot, never mind someone elses money, if I were lending them my money I would make it a requirement for both.

Ted, they (conventional lenders) must look at Texas different than anywhere I have lived. I've never had a FHA or VA loan and always had to have a termite inspection.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Sam, did you sign a contract with the home inspector and or the pest inspector? If not then the seller was the client and the only person that was entitled to the report.

Sort of yes, but mostly sort of no.

The seller would be required to DISCLOSE any material defects, and any deficiencies on that report would be reportable seller disclosure items.

Thus, in effect, the seller would be obligated to 'give the buyer a copy of the report', or, at least the deficiencies listed in that report, which would include the termite report.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Sort of yes, but mostly sort of no.

The seller would be required to DISCLOSE any material defects, and any deficiencies on that report would be reportable seller disclosure items.

Thus, in effect, the seller would be obligated to 'give the buyer a copy of the report', or, at least the deficiencies listed in that report, which would include the termite report.

So how is the HI, who is not obligated to even know who the buyer is, be liable?

Good point!
Although I did not pay for the inspection report, I called the company to schedule for the inspection. At the beginning of the inspection, the inspector asked me to sign a document titled "Inspection Agreement". On this form, my name is shown as the "client".
The inspection reports also indicates that the report was prepared for me.
Thanks for the concern...

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Any pictures of the concrete below the drywall for signs of termites or any pictures at all ?

Here are couple pictures...

Sam, it sounds like the whole transaction was a 'CF'. There is more than one with dirt on there hands. I don't know the pecking order but don't forget to include your Realtor in your complaint.

Best of luck.

I would like to thank everybody who has taken the time to comment. I have learned a lot about what to do and what not to do next time! I just need to figure out what I need to do now!
Thank you...

Sam please keep us up to date on what happens with your case.

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

So how is the HI, who is not obligated to even know who the buyer is, be liable?

Because ... any good attorney is going to include the home inspector, who will have to spend money to get out of it.

Plus, ... come on ... think about it , you are the home inspector, the seller calls you and says I am selling my house and I have agreed to pay for the home inspection for my buyer ... you're not telling me that does not raise any red flags in your mind, are you?

I realize Sam's next post was after your post, but here it is, it certainly clears up the 'who was the client' issue!

Originally Posted by Sam Toast

Although I did not pay for the inspection report, I called the company to schedule for the inspection. At the beginning of the inspection, the inspector asked me to sign a document titled "Inspection Agreement". On this form, my name is shown as the "client".
The inspection reports also indicates that the report was prepared for me.

In other words ... that thar inspectorfella jus' don' hanged hisself.

I had a contractor to come and give me an estimate today. His rough estimate was at least $35K! Like Mr. Schmitt said, I am toast!

I will try my original question once again. I understand that it is not ideal, but does anybody have a suggestion on how the wall frame, sheating and WRB can be retrofitted?

Thanks in advance to everybody...

Ron had this to say on the subject a while back. You might want to do a search to read the entire thread.

O-boy let an old termite guy have a crack at it... Yes it can be done... each wall has its own problems and approach that one needs to look at. But let say you had an 8' by 12 ' long with 2x4 studs. and backing. just cut out one 1/2 of the wall. frame up the new section on the inside of the home about 1/2" short. apply the new sheathing & paper backing. drill and tap treated wires in the back side of the now exposed brick veneer. stand up the new wall treated the wires into the new wall and set the in place. tie of the wires shore up the new wall and move on to the next section of the wall...

and yes get plans and permits. Its been a long time but I have done a few small job like this and it work fine. you may even add an adhesive into the mix. I would start with a termite report for the building department and pull your permit under a R&R INKIND With P/T materials.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Sam Toast

I had a contractor to come and give me an estimate today. His rough estimate was at least $35K! Like Mr. Schmitt said, I am toast!

Plan on extras popping up, to me that sounds low.

I will try my original question once again. I understand that it is not ideal, but does anybody have a suggestion on how the wall frame, sheating and WRB can be retrofitted?

Thanks in advance to everybody...

Sam,

The answer remains the same: Nope.

For additional information, see above posts.

There really is no other way to do it.

I would immediately start looking at the home inspectors pockets, the real estate agents pockets, and the real estate brokers pocket for more than just "spare change", they need to pony up for their joint failures.

I hate poking home inspectors in the eye, but *you* being the client, the person who signed the agreement, for that home inspector TO NOT GIVE *YOU* THE REPORT, *ALL* of the report, he is toast, along with the seller for not disclosing it and the agents for not going over the report with you (the agent and broker have a fiduciary responsibility to you, their client) ... this is a case, based on the information which you have provided here, where EVERYONE SCREWED UP BIG TIME.

That includes you, but THEY KNEW BETTER.

The method that Jim posted that Ron mentioned is not sanctioned by any code, and you would need a structural engineer to sign off on it, and I doubt you could get that as the proposed tying of the brick veneer back to the wall is not in accordance with anything, much less all the other stuff which would be wrong with it.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

I don't know what the termite licensing laws are like in your state, but in Florida, I would suggest you file a complaint with the pest control licensing board as, in Florida, they can *and do* severely discipline and fine inspectors, suspending licenses, revoking licenses, with fines up to $10,000 ... in Florida, it is serious business.

Everything is done at Purdue University in West Lafayette. It sound like it's too late now but the best way you could have gone was to have contacted Kevin Neal at Purdue University and he or somebody in that department would have come out to look at the situation to determine if a mistake was made. Then he would have put something in writing which could have been used for the courts (which can be beneficial to the home inspector or home owner depending on their findings).

They don't give out fines (that's for the courts) but they can do everything else Jerry wrote.

When it comes to the contract you signed with your Realtor. All Realtors in the state of Indiana uses the state form unless a lawyer gets involved (sounds like you didn't have a lawyer). You should have checked off the box on line 131 which reads "BUYERS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO HAVE THE PROPERTY INSPECTED...." The contract also reads on line 132 & 133 that "All inspections are to be at buyer's expense (unless noted otherwise or required by lender)...." So for the seller to pay for the home inspection does seem a little fishy. I also want to point out that you signed the contract so it doesn't matter who pays for the service, the agreement is between you and the home inspector, so the home inspector is providing the service for you.

When it comes to FHA or VA requiring termite inspection - no longer. I know some home inspectors that got out of the WDI treatment business when the requirements were changed (insurance was too high and the amount of jobs to low).

One last thing. In the state of Indiana, there has been no case where liability was limited to the cost of the home inspection/termite inspection (wife has been out of the legal field for 2 1/2 years now so don't know if that statement is still true). I have been told that Illinois is different but this is not Illinois (Thank God!)

Sam,

You need to get a good inspection performed to have an idea at what you are actually dealing with in your home. I would not recommend going with the original inspector, nor would I have recommended that you used the sellers' inspection report to finalize your deal. The inspector that performed the original inspection wos working for the seller, not you. If you have that company re-inspect the house, they will be trying to cover their butts during the re-inspection. Be careful when looking for an inspector yourself. Make sure that the one you choose is a very thorough and knowledgable inspector.

Did I mention that I am in Indianapolis?