Thread: Home inspector responsibilities...

Originally Posted by Darren Miller

Yes, I do on occasion tell people NOT to purchase a house; that's what they pay me for.

Glad I am not the only one who thinks that way.

The client is, after all, paying for what we all routinely say we give ... "our professional opinion".

If you have not developed your professional opinion to that answer by the time you are through with the inspection, if not long before than, you must not have been paying attention to you inspecting and reporting, and, if *YOU* cannot come up with that answer, how on earth do you expect *YOUR CLIENT* to come up with that answer after reading your report?

Sometimes the answer is not to run, but to walk slowly and look back, making sure that is what you want, other times the answer is not to run, but t "run fast", other times, the answer is 'the house is not that bad'.

Yes, some will say that it all depends on what the clients intentions are, and the price they are paying versus the market, and the price they are paying versus the repair cost, and the price they are paying versus their budget, however, *IF YOU* the home inspector cannot come up with an answer to that question based on your knowledge and what you found ... how on earth do you expect to be able to relay your knowledge and findings to your client where they can come up with that answer with second hand information?

I have said I would run, only to have my clients say, yeah, me to, but ... and then they go into the reasons for the "but" ... THEIR DECISION, "but" ... the home inspector should be able to form an answer to that question and relay it to their client in a way in which their client can use it.

I've inspected homes where I arrived at that answer before getting out of the van, only to confirm that it was even worse than I envisioned. I've even offered to stop the inspection and reduce the fee only to have my client say 'No, I know what you are saying and I expected as much, but I want you to document everything.' - to which I replied 'Okay, just making sure and offering.'

Let me explain . first of all here in Ohio the Agents get really upset over that and its unethical to come out and say it directly . however when they get the report and see my repair section esp.when a home is in really bad shape and they see all the circles and comments . it usually dose not take much to convince them .So Im not saying I never, Im just saying you have to watch out about how you say it for the legal issues . thats all . i would never ever with hold the information from my client . I just have to let them make that choice . I came out once and told a client that there was so much WDI damage that the whole flooring system and to the floor supports need repaired . and they commented "can we fix that ourselves we really need this house ." Nothing I could have said would have changed that . they had their mind set. sometimes you just never know how people view the reports Red Flgs everywhere its still their choice.

"I am certified to know what they look like and what damages they can cause"

If you are reporting on WDI in the state of Ohio, you must be certified by the state Department of Agriculture, not INACHI. INACHI does not have juisdiction and you are operating illegally, and subject to legal action by the state.

Jerry,

I inspect the exterior first then the roof. If I determine the roof is shot, I will always ask my client this "if you have to put a new roof on this house, is that a deal breaker?"

If they say Yes, I then tell them the bad news and offer to stop the inspection right there. Some have taken me up on the offer, most have not.

The house in the example report was being purchased by newlyweds. The husband told me he's not mechanically inclined and there was no money left to hire tradesman. Yes, I told them to run, if not the house would own them.

A month later I inspected a nice condo that was less expensive.

Originally Posted by Denny L West

Let me explain . first of all here in Ohio the Agents get really upset over that

Yeah, the agents in Florida get really upset over that too ... so what's your point? You are working for the agents or your clients?

and its unethical to come out and say it directly.

No, just the opposite. If you feel that is the case, it is unethical to hide that information from your client.

I came out once and told a client that there was so much WDI damage that thewhole floring system to the floor supports need repaired . ther comment was .can we fix that ourselves we really need this house . Nothing I could have said would have changed that . they had their mind set. sometimes you just never know how people view the reports Red Flgs everywhere its still thier choice.

Yep, and telling them that, in your professional opinion, the house is ready to fall down on itself because of the termite damage would not have changed their mind either, but you would have told them the truth in your professional opinion.

I have, on several occasions, used the term "until you can see the blue sky above", such as 'remove the shingles as they are shot, remove the roof sheathing as it is eaten up by termites, remove the roof structure as it is eaten up by termites, remove the second floor as all that wood is eaten up by termites, remove everything until you can see the blue sky above from inside, and, while you are at it, remove the walls so you can remove and repair the foundation', their question? "Can we do the work ourselves while we live there?"

Say what? Were you NOT listening to what I just read from the report?

After more explanations and them asking that same basic question 'We plan on living there while doing the work.', I finally said something like 'No problem *as long as Miami Beach does not have a problem with you putting up a tent* in the middle of the slab and living there while you do the work.'

You are correct in that, some people do not care, others 'just do not get it', and others have already planned on that work, nonetheless, though, as the professional, you should have your professional opinion on the answer to that question.

It is up to your clients to act on that information, ... or not. But they CANNOT act on that information if that information is withheld from them.

Jerry I do work for the client and my reports are very detailed when comes to pointing things out . and yes if I feel that the home is a plie Of junk I will say so . We can not as inspectors tell some one how to buy or fix we can only report are findings give them our opinion and let them decide . The standard of practice and the code of ethics . is what I adhear to . and live by. Thanks for your input.

Dear ED: I dont do WDI inspections I do home inspections And I report the condition of the home and everything in it . and if I see termites And termite tubes it is my job as a home inspector to report ( MY FINDINGS ) as I see them . How ever during my home inspection I am trained to report my findings . Im not lisc. for mold but I have to report it .any thing that poses a hazard and strutueral ,safety , health, has to be reported . Then its my duty as an inspector to say this while inspecting I came a cross wood damage in the crawlspace and noticed Termite tubes I strongly recommend you have WDI inspection to determine its true condtion and treatment. Then I gop over that are to see how much damage has been done with photos so that they know how much work wiollbe involved . I am not allowed to use a state WDI form because i am not lisc. how ever my reports are set up for my inspection iinformation for defects and a rotted tremite infested piece of wood is a defct. I really believ you guys are taking this a wee bit to serious . What do Other inspectors do when they are inspecting and they come across WDI ivestation either way you have to report your findings

Originally Posted by Ed Snedaker

If you are reporting on WDI in the state of Ohio, you must be certified by the state Department of Agriculture, not INACHI. INACHI does not have juisdiction and you are operating illegally, and subject to legal action by the state.

Ed,

Do you have a link to the Ohio law for pest control?

I've e-mailed them to find out what the legal definition of "pest control" is and whether or not licensing is required for "the identification or inspecting for" termites, etc., or only for "the application of" pesticides, but have not as yet received an answer back.

Jerry I think you are missing the point . I do home inspections and report the true condition of the home . that includes what ever I find doing a pest inspection takes a complete differant type of ( A one page Form ) The part I think everyone is missing is this . I always tell the client to get a state s certified pest inspection done for the true condition and treatmen then they can know if its past present, I do know my limits and I abide by that this is ohio not florida . as far as the ohio pestinspector I dont take any work from them I always recommend my clients to them. and beside depending on the bank and lenders if they don request a pest inspection most people wont even bother. even if I referr them to one. thsi willbe my last post on this subject you all have a good day . my motto report what I find ........

I stopped reading each post and just skimmed through it so I likely missed something.

I also don't inform my clients if I think they should buy the house or not. At the end of each inspection, I do go over the general condition of the house. For example, I informed my clients at today's job that the house is in good condition with some minor repairs and updating to do. I had a house last year where I told them that there was some major issues that was already talked about and that I recommend getting estimates before purchasing the house to get a better understanding on the cost and time frame for repairs. I just don't think it's our job to tell people what they should do when it comes to buying a house since there are too many factors that I don't know about.

Don't get me wrong, if somebody want to inform their client on whether to buy the house or not is up to that inspector. The buyers are adults and can take it or leave it when it comes to the information we provide them.

Side note: I'm trying out Mozilla firefox and it nice. The spell check as I type is something I didn't have when I was using SBCglobal/AT&T. I don't like that the person that comes up on my website is a white box.

Glad you agree Kevin Hear in Ohio and By our standards of Practice (NACHI )and code of ethics we are not to tell our clients to buy or not to buy due to the legal lawsuits we can get into ,. and I agree if some one else wants to do it differently than thats their bus. for me and my business its whats ethical and right . Report what you find and leave the choice to buy to the buyer. How do you feel about report WDI insects even though some isnt lisc. ? as long as they recommend a pest inspection be done by a lisc pest inspector . how does your state lics laws feel on that .

I don't know what your state requirements are but in the State of Indiana, we must be licensed through the Office of Indiana State Chemist (OISC).

Becoming a WDI Inspector

"Any business that makes fore hire inspections and reports to determine infestations of wood destroying pests and is not already licensed in Category 7b (wood destroying organism pest control) must obtain a WDI business license from the Office of Indiana State Chemist (OISC)."

Becoming state licensed to do WDI is simple and cheap in this state so I am licensed just to inspect.

Kevin I understand the lisc.by state to report WDI on a speacial report thats state regulated . but as a home inspector with your own regular reporting . is it wrong for an Home inspector to report his findings on his report just as he is dioing his inspection. I m there doing a home inspection as hired to do . and my job is to report what I find . would nt that be considered part of the report . then thats where I would tell my clients to hire a lsic.pest inspector to do a complete pest inspection to determine the treatment And damage . I was talking with a local inspector who is lisc for WDI for ohio and he stated that as londg as Im not using the state mandated report . Im not doing a pest inspection I am doing a home inspection . and I should just keep reporting what I find .

Denny,

This is the question I sent to the Ohio Department of Agriculture:

I have been asked a question about pest control in Ohio and to best answer that question, I need to know what the legal definition of “pest control” is in Ohio.

I know that in Florida, and some other states, the definition of “pest control” includes “the identification of or inspection for” pests, while other states may just regulate “the application of” pesticides.

What does pest control mean in Ohio?

Does a person require a license to perform the identification of or inspection for pests, such as termites, etc.? Or, does pest control in Ohio just cover and license those who apply pesticides?

This is the response I received back from the Ohio Department of Agriculture, Pesticide & Fertilizer Enforcement Supervisor: (red text is mine for highlighting)

Pest Control is not defined in Ohio.

If someone is applying pesticides for hire, they need to be licensed through our Department. If they are conducting Wood Destroying Insect Inspections for real estate transactions, they need to be licensed through our Department. If they are just conducting inspections to determine if a pest is present or not, and it is not a Wood Destroying Insect Inspection for a real estate transaction, then no license is needed from our Department to do that.

Please call if you need additional clarification.

Now, I did not fully understand the above stating that: a) one would need to be licensed if they were doing WDI inspection, b) but would not need to be licensed if they were doing a WDI inspection ... sort of depending on how it was arranged and done, so ... to clarify I contacted him again with clarifications and this is his response: (red text is mine for highlighting)

It appears that the person may need to obtain licensure from our Department and would need to use the NPMA-33 form to report evidence of WDI’s found to his clients.

Please review this definition as it is found in Ohio Administrative Code 901:5-11-01(N)(12)
“Wood-destroying insect diagnostic inspection” means the examination of a structure at the request of any party involved in a contemplated real estate transaction to determine if wood destroying insects are present in the structure, if there is evidence they either are or have been present in the structure, or the presence of any visible damage to the structure caused by wood-destroying insects and the generation of a written report of the findings of the examination.

If this is what he is doing, then he would be required to obtain licensure through our Department as a Comemrcial Applicator and a Pesticide Application Business, and would be required to utilize the NPMA-33 form in accordance with OAC 901:5-11-13 to do this.

The only option without licensure, would be to tell his clients that based on the visible evidence found during his home inspection, they need to hire a licensed Wood Destroying Insect Inspection. Again, he could not put what the evidence was that he found in writing, without licensure.

His best bet would be to get licensed, charge the extra fee for the WDI inspection, and fill out the NPMA-33 form on each inspection in conjunction with his total home inspection report.

Again, it makes no difference whether or not he is using the NPMA-33 form. If he is generating a written report about what the WDI evidence was that he found, then he needs to be licensed through us to do so, and then he will be required to use the NPMA-33 form.

Denny, that's not from any of us, that is directly from YOUR state's licensing department. I am just passing the information along as I told Jim I would.

Jerry ;;;;;as it states at the request of . My clients no that I am not a lisce pest inspector and I tell them that when they hire me and I tell them they will need to get a pest inspection done . my reports are not about pest inspections they are about the true condition of the home being inspected . and the condition there of . My reports are as is condition of every aspect of the home . when I m in a crawlspace or basement and I see wood rot I need to determine if its wdi, or water, or dry rot so that I can make the proper detrmination On what they need to do next If its WDI I state this evidence of wood destroying insects past or present Undetrmined an take photos because for instance . I found eveidenc and reported that findings they buy the home with out a pest inspection they cant come back on me and sya why didnt you tell me . Thats why I recommend a follow up inspectin with a WDI LIsc inspector for proper repairs and treatment. and if the client ask me what type Off the record I usually tell them if I Know l and when you see Tremite tubes I tell them so . and often in a report when Im pointing out a differant problem most people will ask whats that hanging down from the floor joist , how would you answer that .Cob Webs . If the state of ohio wants to see a report they can ask for one . They will see im just doing my job and working for my clients and giving them the information they need to make the choices they need . dont let this bother you none Its not effecting you and it is not breaking any laws . Im just doing my job and putting my two cents in and dont care what you think . the state dose not know the conversation we are haveing and did not hear my side only yours in which you are being a butt about .

Jerry this is what this is stating as you printed from the state .(If They are conducting inspection to determine if a pest is present or not ,and it is not a wood destroying insect inspection for a realestate transaction , then no license is needed from a our dept. to do that.) My reports no where states wood destroying insect inspections . they state complete home inspections for the general over all condition of the home or property . My signed inspection agreement even states that they are required to have a pest inspection done by a license pest inspector. so Im not doing any thing wrong because of what has just been stated by the state .

Denny,

You do not want to read what you do not want to hear ...

That SPECIFICALLY states that you may "TELL" them and you do not need to be licensed, but ...

If you "PUT IT IN WRITING" you DO NEED to be licensed ... and you DO NEED to use their form.

I do not know how much clearer it can be stated.

Keep treading water at your own risk.

I have relayed to you what the requirements are, you do as you will with that knowledge, ignoring it is one option, if you so chose.

We are to report matreial defects . and that as i see it is a material defect . Alot of what I do is in photos and I cant leave photos out . Summary letters , A place to write recommendations such as a further evalluation of a licensed Pest isnepctor or is needed then see attched photos section . That is not a pest inspection report that is a condition report. I know my rights and Im reading the same thing you are . I will continue doing my reports the way I see fit I work for my self and my clients not for you . Thanks for your Ino put and concern just dose not fit with me and I have that right to accept or not Jerry I dont accept your opinion at all /Thanks . have a good life . and now no more on the subject iif its not directed to you.

Originally Posted by Denny L West

and now no more on the subject iif its not directed to you.

Because you do not want to keep discussing what is required?

Sorry old chap, but you can either keep posting or stop posting, that is your choice.

It is not, however, your call to tell me whether to stop posting or not.

Besides, as I said, and you did not read, or did not care to read, or did not want to read, that was not *my* opinion, that came directly from *your* state's enforcement supervisor.

You have stated that you put your finding about pest and pest damage "in writing" "in your report"

Originally Posted by Denny L West

so Im not doing any thing wrong because of what has just been stated by the state .

But you are doing something wrong - did you not read what he said?

It appears that the person may need to obtain licensure from our Department and would need to use the NPMA-33 form to report evidence of WDI’s found to his clients.

The only option without licensure, would be to tell his clients that based on the visible evidence found during his home inspection, they need to hire a licensed Wood Destroying Insect Inspection. Again, he could not put what the evidence was that he found in writing, without licensure.

His best bet would be to get licensed, charge the extra fee for the WDI inspection, and fill out the NPMA-33 form on each inspection in conjunction with his total home inspection report.

Again, it makes no difference whether or not he is using the NPMA-33 form. If he is generating a written report about what the WDI evidence was that he found, then he needs to be licensed through us to do so, and then he will be required to use the NPMA-33 form.

Jerry You are just to much I dont do Pest Inspections Only Home inspections And I report my findings period. I have already discussed this with the state of Ohio and get a different point veiw from them than you do . . and they have not found any thing wrong with my reports Concentrate On your state issues and leave Ohio out of it Thanks

Originally Posted by Denny L West

leave Ohio out of it Thanks

Denny,

Touch feely now aren't we ...

You brought up Ohio, the topic was raised, the topic will be completed when the topic is completed.

Just because it did not go in the direction you hoped it would does not mean you now get to stop the topic.

I would suggest that you stop posting as, with each post, you dig yourself into a deeper and deeper hole.

I imagine you will ignore the above and post again, digging your hole even deeper, so be it.

It has gone my way. I dont agree with you and I have different facts .Ill go with what I have thanks .

good bye good day

Toodle doo.

If Ohio is like Florida, they came around and made yearly inspections of pest control operators and what they keep and how they keep it, their practices, etc., sometimes every two years, but they tried to check in on everyone each year.

When people take the test and do not become licensed, they would also check up and follow through as to why not, don't know if they do that in Ohio either.

Denny you stole my ride. USA is to small for the both of us. Get rid of it I had mine first.