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Thread: weep screed

  1. #1
    matthew simon's Avatar
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    Default weep screed

    Hello I have a question? I have seen many stucco applications in my years of construction but I rarely ever see a weep screed used. I just went to Kaplin ITA school and they said that I should make a note of it in my report. I live in Colorado and was just wondering if it is used more in humid climates or should it always be used?

    Thanks for the help.

    matthew simon

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Many of the install techniques have changed as with the codes and lath behind the stucco.

    Here is a good website with information, also the various concrete and masonry sites have good information as well. www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/handouts/53/53rrstucco.pdf

    Stucco does not required installation inspections unless the corp of engineers is involved, which is only the lath. so builders as we all know, take short cuts

    I am an EIFS fan..........


  3. #3
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: weep screed

    I am an EIFS fan.........
    SM: Surely you jest.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: weep screed

    While your working out the details with stucco go ahead and add cultured stone vaneer to that list which is the next EIFS.


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    Default Re: weep screed

    Stephen,

    Great link. thanks!

    www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/handouts/53/53rrstucco.pdf

    I liked the roof/wall interface diagram so much that I adapted a version for my reports, here's .jpg for anyone who might find it useful:

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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Stephen,

    Great link. thanks!

    http://www.ci.bloomington.mn.us/hand...53rrstucco.pdf

    I liked the roof/wall interface diagram so much that I adapted a version for my reports, here's .jpg for anyone who might find it useful:
    (Note, I changed the link above so it would work.)

    Michael,

    A point of interest, though, they show a 'J' casing/screed along the bottom and NOT a "weep screed" as required.

    In Figure 1 they also do NOT show the required drainage plane or (take you pick, they show only one or the other) they do not show the bond breaker. TWO layers are required behind the stucco, a bond breaker and a drainage plane. Typically, paper backed metal lath is used (but they did not show it being used) where the paper backing serves as the bond breaker, then the house wrap is used as the drainage plane. Instead of paper backed metal lath, they could use a layer of felt, and instead of house wrap they could use another layer of felt.

    Those are just too important to have left out or not show properly.

    In Figure 4 they DO show a weep screed above the deck boards. THAT is what should be shown in Figure 1 where the 'J' casing/screed is shown.

    Also note that at the bottom of Figure 4 the weep screed is shown with weep holes - weep holes are NOT required, and, in fact, they are not "weep holes", they are "anchorage holes" which allow the stucco to be pushed down into and through the holes and help anchor the bottom edge from any sliding movement. Weep screeds are available perforated (shown with the so called "weep" holes) and non perforated (without any holes).

    I did not look that document over closely, those things just jumped out at me as 'How could they ... ' show those things that way???

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: weep screed

    I did not look that document over closely, those things just jumped out at me as 'How could they ... ' show those things that way???
    JP: $25K per annum draftsman.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Matthew,

    According to ASTM C 1063 Foundation Weep Screed should always be used. See the following:

    ASTM C 1063-03: Standard Specification for Installation of Lathing and Furring to Receive Interior and Exterior Portland Cement-Based Plaster

    C 1063-03, 6.3.2 states, "Foundation Weep Screed- Accessory used to terminate portland cement based stucco at the bottom of exterior walls. This accessory shall have a sloped, solid, or perforated, ground or screed flange to facilitate the removal of moisture from the wall cavity and a vertical attachment flange not less than 3 1/2 in. (89 mm) long."

    C 1063-03, 7.11.5 states, "Foundation Weep Screed- Foundation Weep Screed shall be installed at the bottom of all steel or wood framed exterior walls to receive lath and plaster. Place the bottome edge of the foundation weep screed not less than 1 in. (25 mm) below the joint formed by the foundation and framing. The nose of the screed shall be placed not less than 4 in. (102 mm) above raw earth or 2 in. (51 mm) above paved surfaces. The weather resistive barrier and lath shall entirely cover the vertical attachment flange and terminate at the top edge if the nose or ground flange."

    Hope this will help. Bud


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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Rutherford View Post
    According to ASTM C 1063 Foundation Weep Screed should always be used.
    Not "always be used", only under the conditions noted.

    See the following:

    ASTM C 1063-03: Standard Specification for Installation of Lathing and Furring to Receive Interior and Exterior Portland Cement-Based Plaster
    When stucco is on masonry or other solid substrate, no weep screed is required or needed.

    Just clarifying the "should always be used" statement.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Jerry is right, "always" is not the proper term. ASTM 1063 pertains to steel or wood framed exterior walls that will receive lath and plaster.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Matthew,

    I have never seen weep screed used! What is used is J channel with weep holes or casing bead. The houses have OSB sheathing. I have written it up every time on the new construction that I inspect. As a matter of fact I just stopped by the local stuuco supply store and asked for weep screed and they gave me the proper piece. They then said I am the only one that has asked for it! It costs about $75 more a house to use weep screed.


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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Spermo View Post
    What is used is J channel with weep holes or casing bead.

    Bob,

    Just a clarification, those holes are not even intended for, nor they do much good for, use as weep holes. Those holes, in what is termed "perforated" ground, casing, etc., are simply there to give the stucco a place to be pushed through when the stucco is applied and allows the stucco to key into those holes and help hold the stucco in place along the bottom of the stucco ground/bead/casing.

    You being the only one to even ask for the weep screed tells you a lot about the contractors in your area.

    You being able to get it even though no one uses it tells you that the supply house knows it is to be used and carries it for that reason (in case some plasterer/stucco person actually knows it is to be used and asks for it.

    Isn't it pathetic that the installers do not use for correct weep screed, all over a measly 75 bucks? Or is that they just do not know? Or that they know, but also know the local inspectors either do not know or do not care?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Bob,

    San Antonio Masonry, off Culebra by you has some of the products. Attached is a link with sketches for stucco accessories. I do not know if the astm standard allows the J channel design. many manufacturers have their specific products, and I think it would be difficult to look at a surface and tell who's specs are being used, such as earlier in this post. Go to the ICC ES report and type in stucco or weep screeds and you will see what I mean. From what I get from the standards is the type of material and flange size of 3.5" and then hole size/spacing.

    Screeds, Casings, and Weeps

    Steve


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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Meyer View Post
    I do not know if the astm standard allows the J channel design.
    Not for the 'J' casing bead to be used in place of a weep screed. As that manufacturer says themselves (and that link has been posted here at various other times) "so as to perform like", which is different from being a "weep screed".

    The holes are really there to allow the stucco to key into the holes for anchorage.

    From ASTM 1063, the standard for lathing and furring to receive stucco: (underlined, bold, red text is mine)

    6.3.2 Foundation Weep Screed—Accessory used to terminate portland cement based stucco at the bottom of exterior walls. This accessory shall have a sloped, solid, or perforated, ground or screed flange to facilitate the removal of moisture from the wall cavity and a vertical attachment flange not less than 3 1⁄2 in. (89 mm) long.

    One of the "requirements" of the weep screed is that the ground or screed flange be "sloped".
    7.11.5
    Foundation Weep ScreedFoundation weep screed shall be installed at the bottom of all steel or wood framed exterior walls to receive lath and plaster. Place the bottom edge of the foundation weep screed not less than 1 in. (25 mm) below the joint formed by the foundation and framing. The nose of the screed shall be placed not less than 4 in. (102 mm) above raw earth or 2 in. (51 mm) above paved surfaces. The weather resistive barrier and lath shall entirely cover the vertical attachment flange and terminate at the top edge of the nose or ground flange.

    Thus, the standard specifies "foundation weep screed shall be" installed at those locations, and, "foundation weep screed" "shall have a sloped" flange.

    That eliminates 'J' casing from being used as a "foundation weep screed" as the 'J' casing does not have the required sloped flange.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Out here on the left coast stucco sans code required clearance and a weepscreed install is an automatic write up. Far too many construction folks have no clue regarding "drain planes." EC Jerry's explanation regarding the purpose of the holes in the bottom of the metal weep screed is anoth mystery to many construction folks. Water let her outers, NOT !
    The diagram is old, but still viable.

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    Default Re: weep screed

    I found another diagram better than mine.

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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    I found another diagram better than mine.
    What that is missing is the drainage plane.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: weep screed

    The Drainage Plane is between the stucco and the paper. (moisture barrier) But you know that.
    BSI-001: The Perfect Wall —

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  19. #19
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    The Drainage Plane is between the stucco and the paper. (moisture barrier) But you know that.
    BSI-001: The Perfect Wall —
    JM: He knows, but sometimes forgets. Too much wind through what hair he still has while riding in his Jaguar.


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    Default Re: weep screed

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    The Drainage Plane is between the stucco and the paper. (moisture barrier) But you know that.
    BSI-001: The Perfect Wall —

    My point was that the drawing you posted does not show it, therefore if someone were to follow that drawing, it would be wrong, way wrong.

    Basically there needs to be either a WRB wrapped around the structure and paper backed lath, or, two layers of WRB wrapped around the structure, with the layer closest to the stucco (the paper of the paper backed lath) is the bond breaker, not a drainage plane, with the second in (first applied) WRB being the drainage plane.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: weep screed

    Everybody duck. This looks like the beginning of another WRB investigation.


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    Default Re: weep screed

    What I've learned/observed/been told after almost 60 years of being immersed in the construction industry is that there's very little that is really truly new, and 3 coat stucco installed on properly installed lath and flashed openings has worked for one hellova long time.

    Our grandfathers and great grandfathers understood drain-planes, what water did and tried to do and when you stuck a vent through a roof you where supplying an opening that would probably leak. Those that have been to Europe will note that most plumbing vents are run on the exterior of a building just like ours used to. We ran into trouble when we went with the cheapo belly wire stucco cladding installations, EFS, and the lack of proper training/apprenticeship in the lathing & stucco industry.

    My late father-in-law was a lathing contractor (circa 1930s) before he became a big tract builder in the late 40s and 50s. If you remove Green Construction there is really nothing really new, wait……………, actually Green Construction is where we started. Oh well????

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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