Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Jim B. Robinson's Avatar
    Jim B. Robinson Guest

    Question Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    This is a new brick veneer house - 2 months old. Just checking out new construction while I'm studying home inspection.

    There appears to be a control joint over the side man-door to the garage. But it's wide open to the elements. This seems incorrect.

    The other pic shows the opposite side of the house and you can clearly see the break from soffit to foundation on one side of the window. This one however, is filled with mortar. The sill is already cracked.

    Am I correct that these are actually control joints? I'm thinking some kind of flexible compound would be better to fill the gap with rather than mortar.

    Jim

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. Robinson View Post
    There appears to be a control joint over the side man-door to the garage. But it's wide open to the elements. This seems incorrect.

    The other pic shows the opposite side of the house and you can clearly see the break from soffit to foundation on one side of the window. This one however, is filled with mortar. The sill is already cracked.

    Am I correct that these are actually control joints?

    Jim,

    They sure look like control joints.

    It is one of those "dumb things" contractors do - they create a control and expansion joint, then they either leave it open or fill it with an incompressible material.

    The gap needs to be filled with a compressible sealant which also has adhesion to both sides of the control joint.

    Filling an expansion joint between to sides which are expected to move (that is the reason there is an expansion joint there) makes it no different than not installing the expansion joint to begin with - other than it is easier to correct by chipping the mortar out than it would be to correct by creating an expansion joint by saw cut out a joint.

    And, yes, because the expansion joint has been filled with an incompressible material - of course the sill is cracked.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. Robinson View Post
    This is a new brick veneer house - 2 months old. Just checking out new construction while I'm studying home inspection.

    There appears to be a control joint over the side man-door to the garage. But it's wide open to the elements. This seems incorrect.

    The other pic shows the opposite side of the house and you can clearly see the break from soffit to foundation on one side of the window. This one however, is filled with mortar. The sill is already cracked.

    Am I correct that these are actually control joints? I'm thinking some kind of flexible compound would be better to fill the gap with rather than mortar.

    Jim
    Foam rodding and caulking is the norm. It has to allow the rest of the wall to move, flex, expand.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Foam rodding and caulking is the norm.

    That is called "backer rod" and typically the gap for the sealant needs to be (based on the sealants requirements, of course) must be at least 1/4" wide and at least 1/4" deep, with a width to depth ratio of 2:1 being recommended for a maximum depth of 1/2" for a joint up to (again, depending on sealant) 2" to 3" wide. The ideal joint, naturally, and based on the above dimensions, will be 1" or less in width and 1/2" thick for the sealant at the thin part of the sealants profile, which when cut across would be hourglass shaped. The minimum bite (adhesion area) for the sealant along the substrate being adhered to is 1/4".

    Thus the optimum sealant profile would be something like 1" bite on each side to the substrate, 1/2" thickness at the center of the hourglass shape, and 1" joint width, with the backer rod being placed to allow for the proper sealant joint. A good sealant joint will have two sealant beads, a secondary and a primary, each having the same characteristics, so the overall depth of the joint would be closer to 2"-3".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is called "backer rod" and typically the gap for the sealant needs to be (based on the sealants requirements, of course) must be at least 1/4" wide and at least 1/4" deep, with a width to depth ratio of 2:1 being recommended for a maximum depth of 1/2" for a joint up to (again, depending on sealant) 2" to 3" wide. The ideal joint, naturally, and based on the above dimensions, will be 1" or less in width and 1/2" thick for the sealant at the thin part of the sealants profile, which when cut across would be hourglass shaped. The minimum bite (adhesion area) for the sealant along the substrate being adhered to is 1/4".

    Thus the optimum sealant profile would be something like 1" bite on each side to the substrate, 1/2" thickness at the center of the hourglass shape, and 1" joint width, with the backer rod being placed to allow for the proper sealant joint. A good sealant joint will have two sealant beads, a secondary and a primary, each having the same characteristics, so the overall depth of the joint would be closer to 2"-3".
    Smiling here. Good answer.

    Foam rodding (backer rod) and caulking for short.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Montreal, QC, Canada
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    buy any chance is this house sitting on land which is prone to large amounts of settlement or movement due to frost heave? Or is a step foundation?

    Pretty interesting way of solving a problem. True should be jointed using backer rod and caulking.

    I think that this type of veneer would be much less durable long term due to the break in the weave pattern. Would probably require more maintenance long term. Just thinking out loud.

    Here in montreal where it gets pretty cold in winter and hot in summer this is ususally never seen and neverencounterd any serious problems with the veneer unless there are massive amounts of foundation movement due to other factors impeding on the house.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Smiling here. Good answer.

    Foam rodding (backer rod) and caulking for short.
    Ted,

    I used to inspect those joints in high-rise buildings. Looking at the sealant profile, doing pull tests to see if the sealant actually adhered as it should, etc., so I probably had a head start on you for that longer answer.

    I had one 16 story high-rise where all the sealant was pulled out and replaced ... not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES ... and it STILL FAILED the adhesion tests. And the profile tests were, well, 'Oh, THAT is supposed to be hourglass shaped?'

    On one job "their best man" showed me an area he personally applied the sealant ... it failed ... every time he re-did it ... and he was their "best, most experienced, knowledgeable and trained man".

    16 story building, all faces, completely re-done 3 TIMES and STILL FAILED.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Jim B. Robinson's Avatar
    Jim B. Robinson Guest

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Laurieri View Post
    buy any chance is this house sitting on land which is prone to large amounts of settlement or movement due to frost heave? Or is a step foundation?

    Here in montreal where it gets pretty cold in winter and hot in summer this is ususally never seen and neverencounterd any serious problems with the veneer unless there are massive amounts of foundation movement due to other factors impeding on the house.
    Hey Joe,
    Not sure about the settlement issue, but I can tell you that's it's built on land where there are a lot of gravel pits near by. Not a step foundation.

    We get pretty much the same weather conditions here near London.

    Jim


  9. #9
    Jim B. Robinson's Avatar
    Jim B. Robinson Guest

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Thanks for the other info re: backer rod et al.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Montreal, QC, Canada
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Thx Jim

    Familiar with the weather conditions in your end of the world....

    Just wondering why we do not see much of that type of work around here.

    Just ran into that type of work once and it was used to repair an opeiing due to movement.

    and let me tell you.... adhesion was really bad........ owner must have redone it tons of times and s till wouldn't stay put.

    cheers


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Charlotte NC Licensed in NC and SC
    Posts
    597

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    [QUOTE=Joe Laurieri;86817]
    Here in montreal where it gets pretty cold in winter and hot in summer/QUOTE]

    Pretty cold? Jeez, I have been there about 4 times, the first time was for 12 weeks, it was snowing the first week and about 11 weeks later it was 100 F.

    I almost froze to death a few times up there, walking from bar to bar etc.

    Very nice city (and I don't really like big cities) the food there is the best in the world, Gibby's, Troika.... Can't remember the others

    Are you from there Joe?


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Montreal, QC, Canada
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Born and raised... all my life

    gotta tell you as far as restaurants and bars go... true too many and hard to remember them all

    hard to land onto a bad one... great night life too


  13. #13
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Oh Canada........Oh C a n a d a

    Way to far north for any sane human wanting to live. Mass was way to far north to live. Just love freezing to death on an 8 below morning when you come out and find your tire flat or something wonderful like that. Then having to break your way into your own car because it is frozen to death as well. Then dig the car the rest of the way out of the frozen driveway so after you tried for 2 hours to strart your car and finally get it running you can actually get somewhere.

    Yeah, yeah, maybe some of that was slightly exagerated but not by much in some cases.

    Dead and gloomy for, what, how many months out of the year. Then when it is hot it is nasty humid hot.

    Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    I use to see this all time in Mississippi, expansive clay is all over the the state.

    The backer rod as Jerry pointed out, controls the depth of the sealant (butyl rubber type sealants are my favorite as well as Chinking compound for this application) it also allows for only three sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints. If you just squirt sealants into the gap without backer rod, it will stick to the substrate and it will tear apart when the structure moves.

    The chinking compound that I like is by Weatherall. The product name is 1010 Chinking and comes in 10.3 oz tubes that you use with a caulk gun. The best thing about this product is that it is sanded and they have dozens of colors. I use this product to fill in the holes I make when I do an EIFS inspection. I even used it on my tile floor at the grout line at my rear door. The grout kept cracking out at the threshold so I used the chinking compound. It matched the grout color perfectly

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 06-02-2009 at 10:13 AM.
    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    The backer rod as Jerry pointed out, controls the depth of the sealant (butyl rubber type sealants are my favorite as well as Chinking compound for this application) it also allows for only three sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints.

    Scott,

    "it also allows for only three sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints"

    You meant to say "it also allows for only TWO sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints", right?

    The backer rod has, or should have, a releasing surface to which the sealant will not adhere. With adherence to only two surfaces the sealant is allowed to expand (stretch) due to contraction of the two adhered surfaces and to compress due to expansion of the two adhered surfaces.

    As soon as a third side is adhered, the sealant begins to be pulled apart and tear in shear, resulting in failure of the sealant.

    The backer rod basically establishes a depth limitation of the joint, helps with the contour of the joint to be more hourglass like, and to allow for no adhesion on the third side. If non-releasing backer rod is used, or another material is used which does not offer that non-adhesion quality, then releasing tape is required over the backer rod to prevent adhesion of the sealant to it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring Hill (Nashville), TN
    Posts
    5,847

    Default Re: Brick Veneer Stress Control Joint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Scott,

    "it also allows for only three sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints"

    You meant to say "it also allows for only TWO sided adhesion which is very important with expansion joints", right?

    The backer rod has, or should have, a releasing surface to which the sealant will not adhere. With adherence to only two surfaces the sealant is allowed to expand (stretch) due to contraction of the two adhered surfaces and to compress due to expansion of the two adhered surfaces.

    As soon as a third side is adhered, the sealant begins to be pulled apart and tear in shear, resulting in failure of the sealant.

    The backer rod basically establishes a depth limitation of the joint, helps with the contour of the joint to be more hourglass like, and to allow for no adhesion on the third side. If non-releasing backer rod is used, or another material is used which does not offer that non-adhesion quality, then releasing tape is required over the backer rod to prevent adhesion of the sealant to it.
    Yep, Two is what I was thinking and it just did not come out that way! Damn, Mad Cow disease!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •