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Thread: Stucco

  1. #1
    John Stephenson's Avatar
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    Default Stucco

    Last edited by John Stephenson; 12-21-2007 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #2
    Joseph P. Hagarty's Avatar
    Joseph P. Hagarty Guest

    Default Re: Stucco

    What type of Stucco?

    Hard Coat, EIFS and/or a Combination of Both?


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    1) The columns have stucco on wood frame. The bottom of the stucco is in contact with the porch slab, no weep screeds. This installation is bad news or okay?
    If regular hardcoat stucco, being 'in contact' with the porch slab is not a problem, however, weep screeds are required at the bottom of the stucco.

    2) The stucco casement trim needs to be sloped properly to drain water?
    Depends, as Joe said, on what they are. They could be EIFS applied to a straight up and down stucco column, in which case the stucco continues past the bands and is not a problem. They could be framed out and the stucco runs down the column and out and over the framed bands - that's a problem, you are just waiting for the wood to rot out.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  4. #4
    Martin lehman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stucco

    If regular hardcoat stucco, being 'in contact' with the porch slab is not a problem, however, weep screeds are required at the bottom of the stucco.
    I know that you know, but Jerry, the screeds should be 2" above the hardscape so the stucco should not be 'in contact' with the porch slab.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Martin,

    I was not specific or clear in my post (my fault, not yours).

    Stucco on block can run down into the ground or to the porch slab.

    Stucco on frame should have a weep screed.

    Both are referring to "hardcoat" stucco (regular portland cement stucco).

    The framing behind the stucco should be at least 6" above the concrete patio (if memory serves me right), with a weep screed overhanging the sheathing/foundation/slab joint, allowing for a 4" termite inspection band, with no stucco.

    Be gentle with those whip lashes as I've been sick-but-working all week, with a temperature of (when I got back home): Mon=101.3, Tues=100.6, Wed=102.9, Thurs=100.9, and tonight I'm feeling a bit better, so I haven't taken it (but think it's down closer to 100 again ). Wednesday was a killer day for me though feeling-wise. If I made any major mistakes in my posts here this week I'll blame it on not being fully rational. I see I made that post on Tuesday, so ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    Yes, if on frame, 4 inches clearance to the weep screed should do it, and, yes, it needs a weep screed at the bottom of the stucco.

    Remember it this way:

    Stucco on frame = weep screeds at the bottom of all stucco areas and needs clearance to grade and patios for termite inspections.

    Stucco on block = no weep screeds and can go into the ground *IF* fully adhered (not loose) and not more than 5/8" thick. No termite inspection space is required.

    HOWEVER,

    You did not answer as to what those bands around those columns were made of. THAT could be the bigger problem.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    Quote Originally Posted by John Stephenson View Post
    It is hardcoat stucco on wood frame. Not EIFS. The stucco runs from the very top to the slab. I'm not sure what the bands are made of, probably a 2x4 with stucco applied on it.

    I'll issue my addendum in the morning.
    When you do, also tell them that the stucco is not designed to be applied on horizontal frame surfaces with only a drainage plane behind the stucco. Water will go through the stucco and down through any penetrations (screws, nails, staples, tears, etc.) to the frame, which then rots out.

    Think of the top of the band as the top of a parapet wall.

    Would you wrap stucco up and over the top of that parapet wall? Or would you install a parapet wall cap flashing (coping)?

    I've got video of a second floor with its walls rotted out after just a few years because the idiot builder ran the paper backed metal lath up, over, and down the other side of the parapet walls. rotted the studs out (totally gone for the first couple of feet) and the plywood sheathing behind the stucco was gone too.

    Stucco on frame IS ONLY FOR vertical surfaces. Water drains downhill, let it drain downhill. Gravity will always win. Builders will always lose out to gravity, no matter how smart they think they are, if they insist on installing on the horizontal products made to go vertically.

    Know why you beer belly hangs over your belt and not up at your chin? Gravity.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
    Martin lehman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stucco

    Stucco on wood frame should have a screed with a clearance of 2" to hardscape and 4" to soil. Framing should be min 6" to grade.

    Good info about stucco on vertical surfaces only.
    I see foam trim/bands on stucco exteriors out here all the time.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin lehman View Post
    I see foam trim/bands on stucco exteriors out here all the time.
    Typically, with foam trim, the stucco is applied first, then the foam trim is applied, thus, stucco over foam trim (even the horizontal surfaces) is not a problem. Any water which seeps between the foam trim and the stucco will eventually either: a) seep out the bottom of the foam trim/stucco joint, or, b) seep into the stucco to the drainage plane, which is intended to drain down behind the stucco anyway.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    Here we go again, Jerry....

    Typically, foam projections are applied after the base layer of foam and wire lath is installed, not the base layer of stucco. This would allow any incidential moisture to be managed by the drainage plane.
    Why would you send the plasterer out to do only the base layer, then restage to do the projections?? Not very cost effective.

    The requirements for a weep screed at locations with frame are correct, 2" above hardscape and 4" above grade. However, what about columns with a CMU block base, say 2-4' high? Everything above that is frame?Would you expect to see a weep/inspection band there as well? Or would there be a weep line 1" below the framing? Kind of ruins the look then. It would also stain the stucco applied over the block base as well...

    We see builders ignore this requirement all the time out here because they want the "coming out of the ground" look to these adobe looking styles that are so popular out here. Not saying this is right, just pointing out what may be an "alternate universe" outside of FLA.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Also, sorry this is so late, I just came across this thread...been busy, I have a real job.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Quote Originally Posted by John Carroll View Post
    Here we go again, ....
    Yep.

    This would allow any incidential moisture to be managed by the drainage plane.
    As would the way I described, so I don't see what the problem is.

    Why would you send the plasterer out to do only the base layer, then restage to do the projections?? Not very cost effective.
    You actually have builders in your area who schedule critical path? Wow!

    The builders I've seen (most of them who used the foam trim) would stucco first (much more cost effective to stucco without all those interruptions in the stucco surface, then, when the stucco is still wet, set the foam trim, or, add the foam trim after the scratch coat, setting it in stucco.

    Why do it that way? Because there is stucco and there is decorative cementitious coatings. The walls get "stucco", the foam trim gets the "decorative cementitious coating. Two different things, done at two different times, using two different mixtures/products.

    However, what about columns with a CMU block base, say 2-4' high? Everything above that is frame?Would you expect to see a weep/inspection band there as well? Or would there be a weep line 1" below the framing? Kind of ruins the look then. It would also stain the stucco applied over the block base as well...
    Yes. 'Either Or'. But NOT 'neither'.

    Staining the stucco? NOT OUR PROBLEM, ...

    ... that's a design issue where they probably tried VE (Value Engineering, which means, in my definition, that "they've *Engineered* the *Value* out").

    WHEN you have frame ... it needs a drainage plane ... which needs a drainage method at the bottom. Don't want to incorporate a horizontal break line in the finished look there? Don't change from frame to masonry/concrete there - make the change where the horizontal line is acceptable.

    We see builders ignore this requirement all the time out here because they want the "coming out of the ground" look to these adobe looking styles that are so popular out here. Not saying this is right, ...
    Good, because *IT IS NOT* "right".

    ... just pointing out what may be an "alternate universe" outside of FLA.
    No "alternative universe" ... possibly a greater willingness to accept inferior and incorrect work.

    If it is not correct, and that is not, then it should be pointed out ans written up. Will it be corrected? Maybe ... but more likely NOT!

    Nonetheless, the HI needs to advise their client that, *just because EVERYONE speeds* does not make it right, there are limits and requirements for reasons, and the reason a weep is REQUIRED there is to help drain the water out, to reduce the likelihood that the framing and/or sheathing will rot out.

    That's a good enough reason for me.

    Maybe not for you, though.

    Your choice.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Question Re: Stucco

    Ahh-shish if I had a nickel?

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    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Stucco

    As would the way I described, so I don't see what the problem is.
    Not sure you're on the same page, see below.


    You actually have builders in your area who schedule critical path? Wow!

    What, you think FLA is the only place in America where people do critical thinking?

    The builders I've seen (most of them who used the foam trim) would stucco first (much more cost effective to stucco without all those interruptions in the stucco surface, then, when the stucco is still wet, set the foam trim, or, add the foam trim after the scratch coat, setting it in stucco.

    huh? Set foam projections in wet stucco?? You're delusional! Doesn't happen here or anywhere else I've seen a house built. The stucco applied over the projections is the SAME mix as the base coat. I believe you may be confusing EIFS projections with stucco, which are sometimes applied on top of the base coat. Stucco projections never are.

    Why do it that way? Because there is stucco and there is decorative cementitious coatings. The walls get "stucco", the foam trim gets the "decorative cementitious coating. Two different things, done at two different times, using two different mixtures/products.

    Again, wrong application.

    Nonetheless, the HI needs to advise their client that, *just because EVERYONE speeds* does not make it right, there are limits and requirements for reasons, and the reason a weep is REQUIRED there is to help drain the water out, to reduce the likelihood that the framing and/or sheathing will rot out.

    Agreed.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Sorry, still not up to speed on the "quote" thingy...


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Jerry: You actually have builders in your area who schedule critical path? Wow!

    John: What, you think FLA is the only place in America where people do critical thinking?

    John,

    I guess I should have used a smiley face - my intent was ... that in Florida, that ain't done (critical path - even as much as some may try), but if it is where you are ... Wow! You are lucky.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    John,

    You said "huh? Set foam projections in wet stucco?? You're delusional! Doesn't happen here or anywhere else I've seen a house built. The stucco applied over the projections is the SAME mix as the base coat. I believe you may be confusing EIFS projections with stucco, which are sometimes applied on top of the base coat. Stucco projections never are."

    I can only answer with ... Huh?

    *I* am referring to foam trim, quoins, bands, etc., being applied over stucco - which is what I said. You are thinking I'm saying ... what? You've got me all confused as to what you think and what you think I think.

    You said "I believe you may be confusing EIFS projections with stucco", no, I'm not confused, that *IS EXACTLY WHAT* I am talking about. I think you have/had a preconceived notion in your head as to what your argument would be, and stated it, without actually reading what I wrote ... either that ... or I wrote something entirely different than I think I wrote.

    ONE of us is totally confused confused about what the other is saying ... I really think BOTH of us are totally confused about what the other is saying - *I* know you have me totally confused about what you are saying and I do believe you are totally confused about what I am saying.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    Well, I'm confused!

    Jim Luttrall
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    Default Re: Stucco

    John S. was writing about a hardcoat stucco weep detail.

    Your comment was about projections(popouts, quoins, etc) being installed after the base coat stucco is applied. An EIFS application you later confirmed, after I called you on it.
    That's how this got to EIFS, your comment about projections...Maybe stayin' on topic would help.


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    Default Re: Stucco

    Quote Originally Posted by John Carroll View Post
    John S. was writing about a hardcoat stucco weep detail.

    Your comment was about projections(popouts, quoins, etc) being installed after the base coat stucco is applied. An EIFS application you later confirmed, after I called you on it.
    That's how this got to EIFS, your comment about projections...Maybe stayin' on topic would help.
    What would actually help would be if you responded to what was said when you responded to it, and not something else you think should have been said.

    Reading and posting with regard to what you read - the surest way to keep comments relative.

    Thread drift WILL HAPPEN, responding to thread drift without reading it accomplishes nothing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Stucco

    LOL- you're too easy, Jerry, see ya in the funny papers.


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