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  1. #1
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    Default Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    I hope some of you have experience with this. It is clear that when laying brick veneer in a residential application, expansion joints are required every 20-25' in a long wall. However, I have searched everywhere I can think of and I find no specifications for expansion joints when the brick cladding is replaced with natural stone. We are not discussing adhered faux stone veneers, but natural stone laid just like brick (wall ties, etc.) It makes sense to me that they should be there, but I can find no requirements. The Building Stone Institute "recommends" expansion joints, but there is no recommendation on spacing, etc.

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    Last edited by Llewel Walters; 06-21-2010 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Clarification
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Llewel Walters View Post
    We are not discussing adhered faux stone veneers, but natural stone laid just like brick (wall ties, etc.) It makes sense to me that they should be there, but I can find no requirements.
    When you say "laid just like brick", that implies that there is a 1" air space between the stone veneer and the wall which is something I have never seen and I'm not sure is even possible...well with the right stone I guess theoretically it would be possible.

    I have always seen stone applied over a metal lath, cultured or natural.

    I did find this:
    Movement Joints
    Natural stone is relatively stable and will not move of its own accord. All
    buildings move slightly over time in response to applied loads, foundation
    settlement, traffic vibrations, and changes in temperature and humidity.
    This movement can sometimes cause cracks to appear in the veneer unless
    movement joints are incorporated into the design.
    Typical locations for movement joints include:
    • near building corners
    • at window and door openings (use a movement joint at one side of
    an opening 6 to 12 feet wide; openings over 12 feet wide need a joint
    at each jamb)
    • where the stone veneer meets another material such as siding or stucco
    • about 35 feet on center for large walls without openings


    Movement joints should be flexible. Leave a
    3/8" gap through the veneer
    and fill with backer rod and sealant.

    This was for stone over lath not laid like brick.




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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Llewel Walters View Post
    It is clear that when laying brick veneer in a residential application, expansion joints are required every 20-25' in a long wall.

    First, brick veneer required expansion joints more often than as stated above.

    Second, the code section is all inclusive of masonry veneers, which includes stone masonry: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R703.7 Stone and masonry veneer, general. Stone and masonry veneer shall be installed in accordance with this chapter, Table R703.4 and Figure R703.7. These veneers installed over a backing of wood or cold-formed steel shall be limited to the first story above-grade and shall not exceed 5 inches (127 mm) in thickness.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Thanx guys. The problem with the IRC is that even though it says that brick and stone are to comply with Section R703.7, the Section doesn't address expansion joints. They are addressed for brick in the Brick Institute's website. However stone is lacking.

    I have come to the conclusion that even though stone is not expansive like clay brick and may not require expansion joints on its own, the mortar is expansive and post tension foundations and frames move. Therefore, in my opinion, expansion joints are required in this application. Even though I am a ICC Certified Residential Inspector, I work for the home builder in this case and get to make the call.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Llewel Walters View Post
    Thanx guys. The problem with the IRC is that even though it says that brick and stone are to comply with Section R703.7, the Section doesn't address expansion joints. They are addressed for brick in the Brick Institute's website. However stone is lacking.

    I have come to the conclusion that even though stone is not expansive like clay brick and may not require expansion joints on its own, the mortar is expansive and post tension foundations and frames move. Therefore, in my opinion, expansion joints are required in this application. Even though I am a ICC Certified Residential Inspector, I work for the home builder in this case and get to make the call.
    Here is the (one of, if not THE) reason brick veneer requires expansion joints and natural stone may not: Brick, when it comes out of the oven, is *the smallest it will ever be*, the brick will continue to expand over its lifetime as it takes on moisture.

    Yes, brick will expand some due to thermal expansion, as would natural stone, however, everything else is also expanding to some degree due to the thermal temperature changes, but MOST of brick's expansion is due to taking on moisture and simply growing in size due to that.

    Thus natural stone may not require expansion joints.

    Being as you are working for the builder and he will follow your advice, I would make sure that you are giving sound advice. You said "The Building Stone Institute "recommends" expansion joints, but there is no recommendation on spacing, etc.", thus I would contact the Building Stone Institute and ask them what the recommended spacing is, send them an e-mail and use that written reply as supporting documentation for your advice, thus it is not "you" giving advice on installing expansion joints and their spacing, it is the Building Stone Institute providing that advice. You should first find out what type of stone is to be used as I am sure their very first question will be "What type of stone are you using?", followed by "If this is a vertical installation, how high will the wall be and how wide is the wall going to be?". Then they may well ask "How thick is the stone wall going to be?" as that would affect the expansion distance - thicker stone would expand more than thinner stone, and shorter stone pieces would expand less than longer stone pieces.

    Be prepared to answer those questions, and more.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    "Utmost care is needed to make sure that shims, or any other rigid objects, are not left in the expansion joints." - there's one more thing to inspect for.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Thanx Jerry. All good advice. I appreciate everyone's input. I'll post my findings later.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Look's like what's really needed is the equivalent of the BIA prescriptive guide for expansion joints, only for stone veneer...

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Thanx to A.D., Michael, Jerry and the rest of you for your most valuable input and thoughtful guidance.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Yes, brick will expand some due to thermal expansion, as would natural stone, however, everything else is also expanding to some degree due to the thermal temperature changes, but MOST of brick's expansion is due to taking on moisture and simply growing in size due to that.
    From http://www.imiweb.org/multimedia_gal...-Aug-06-MM.pdf

    Planning for brick hot out of the kiln
    As a result of frantic construction schedules (which often
    cost owners more money than they save), many projects are
    always in a rush for brick. This means less time for the initial
    expansion before installation. Brick significantly expands
    from moisture gain in the first few months after production,
    before leveling out (Figure 3). It is best to plan for this
    change and decrease the distance between expansion joints.
    While the Brick Industry Association’s (BIA’s) general rule
    for 7.6-m (25-ft) spacing is usually adequate, some recent

    projects have proven this to be not the case. Figure 4
    illustrates the sealant oozing out of a closed EJ spaced at 7.6
    m (25 ft). If a rush schedule is anticipated, it may be best to
    decrease spacing to 6.1 m (20 ft).



    I don't think I've ever seen an expansion joint in residential brick, but I don't recall inspecting an exceptionally large brick home. However, I frequently see brick walls over 25' long. We have low rainfall and humidity here, so maybe it's different here.

    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Brick, when it comes out of the oven, is *the smallest it will ever be*,

    Yes, brick will expand some due to thermal expansion, as would natural stone, however, everything else is also expanding to some degree due to the thermal temperature changes, but MOST of brick's expansion is due to taking on moisture and simply growing in size due to that.
    Now that might not be the full story.
    a. What about extrude and pressed concrete units.
    b. Even air dried clay units. Reclaimed frogers and full brick.
    c. In my neck of the woods cement units is as common as clay brick.

    I have observed many clay brick walls "over 25 feet in length" without expansion joints, no weep holes, in residential settings.
    Once you get into commercial the story changes.

    Please forgive my uneducated practical observations.
    I understand your point but, thermal expansion must enter the equation.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Brick, when it comes out of the oven, is *the smallest it will ever be*, the brick will continue to expand over its lifetime as it takes on moisture.

    Yes, brick will expand some due to thermal expansion, as would natural stone, however, everything else is also expanding to some degree due to the thermal temperature changes, but MOST of brick's expansion is due to taking on moisture and simply growing in size due to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Now that might not be the full story.
    a. What about extrude and pressed concrete units.
    b. Even air dried clay units. Reclaimed frogers and full brick.
    c. In my neck of the woods cement units is as common as clay brick.

    I have observed many clay brick walls "over 25 feet in length" without expansion joints, no weep holes, in residential settings.
    Once you get into commercial the story changes.
    What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," did you miss? You even put it at the beginning of the quote.

    Let's see, MY "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," compared to YOUR: (underlining is mine)
    a. What about extrude and pressed concrete units.
    b. Even air dried clay units. Reclaimed frogers and full brick.
    c. In my neck of the woods cement units is as common as clay brick.

    There is a HUGE difference between concrete masonry units ("cement" is used in making "concrete") in that they are made wet and allowed to cure and then finish drying out after hydrating as they are as big as they will ever be coming out of the extruder forms.

    "Air dried" brick is also completely different than "Brick, when it comes out of the oven".

    Down here concrete masonry units far outnumber brick units, but that has nothing to do with any aspect of it.

    I'm at a loss trying to figure out why you made a comparison between apples, oranges, and bananas, then added that there are more apples in your area than there are oranges???

    You also said:
    I understand your point but, thermal expansion must enter the equation.
    Even though I included thermal expansion:
    Yes, brick will expand some due to thermal expansion, as would natural stone, however, everything else is also expanding to some degree due to the thermal temperature changes, but MOST of brick's expansion is due to taking on moisture and simply growing in size due to that.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," did you miss? You even put it at the beginning of the quote.

    Let's see, MY "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," compared to YOUR: (underlining is mine)
    a. What about extrude and pressed concrete units.
    b. Even air dried clay units. Reclaimed frogers and full brick.
    c. In my neck of the woods cement units is as common as clay brick.

    There is a HUGE difference between concrete masonry units ("cement" is used in making "concrete") in that they are made wet and allowed to cure and then finish drying out after hydrating as they are as big as they will ever be coming out of the extruder forms.

    "Air dried" brick is also completely different than "Brick, when it comes out of the oven".

    Down here concrete masonry units far outnumber brick units, but that has nothing to do with any aspect of it.

    I'm at a loss trying to figure out why you made a comparison between apples, oranges, and bananas, then added that there are more apples in your area than there are oranges???

    You also said:


    Even though I included thermal expansion:
    Mr. Peak, I think your attitude leaves a lot to be desired.
    Some may agree while others not, but I think you are pompous, arrogant individual.
    That is unfortunate for members that wish to be included in a discussion.

    Personally, I as well as others are not here to be brow beaten or belittled by your impatience.
    IMO, I feel you tend to make poor examples.
    Bricks are bricks, sir.
    What and how they are manufactured must be included in a discussion.
    Also what part of the country must enter the equation. "Heat and water" add to their expansive qualities.

    They are not apples nor oranges as you describe them to defend a radical position. They are bricks!

    Your abruptness is poor excuse to discuss a manufactured object.
    Too bad.
    So sad.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Mr. Peak, I think your attitude leaves a lot to be desired.
    Some may agree while others not, but I think you are pompous, arrogant individual.
    That is unfortunate for members that wish to be included in a discussion.

    Personally, I as well as others are not here to be brow beaten or belittled by your impatience.
    IMO, I feel you tend to make poor examples.
    Robert Old,

    Let me get this straight - KW leaves, then on another thread you go after Gene South (I believe it was Gene) as being the next KW, and here you are going after me for being the next KW??

    I was being nice when I said: "What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," did you miss? You even put it at the beginning of the quote."

    If ... IF I was not being nice, I would have said 'What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," do you not UNDERSTAND?'

    Bricks are bricks, sir.
    CORRECT ... "bricks are bricks", and concrete blocks are concrete blocks, and concrete pavers are concrete pavers, and ... concrete blocks are "masonry units", just like concrete pavers are "masonry units", just like bricks are "masonry units", albeit concrete blocks and concrete pavers are typically referred to as "concrete masonry units" to differentiate them from clay masonry units.

    And "concrete" is not "cement" - "cement" is one of the ingredients used to make "concrete".

    Your terminology is in need of work ... and, yes, I WAS being nice, but apparently you do not want to play "nice", seems you are the one disparaging others ... it's your call as to "play nice" or not - "I" prefer "playing nice".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    I have seen a lot of real stone veneer (not 2" thick, but 6" minimum). I have never seen it is installed with expansion joints. I'm not saying it is not recommended or a good idea, just that it is uncommon in my area. I can also say that unlike brick, I have never seen a problem with this. It could be that with the many mortar joints and irregular nature of the stone small amounts of movement occur throughout the wall.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Reinmiller View Post
    I have seen a lot of real stone veneer (not 2" thick, but 6" minimum). I have never seen it is installed with expansion joints. I'm not saying it is not recommended or a good idea, just that it is uncommon in my area. I can also say that unlike brick, I have never seen a problem with this. It could be that with the many mortar joints and irregular nature of the stone small amounts of movement occur throughout the wall.
    Mark,

    Has the real stone veneer you've seen been anchored stone (with the air space) or adhered stone (which is adhered directly to the substrate wall)?

    Adhered stone would not need expansion joints as it is adhered to the wall (like the difference between stucco on frame walls with control joints and stucco on masonry/concrete without control joints).

    With anchored natural stone, I doubt there is a lot of expansion or contraction which would need to be compensated for. Just guessing as to why control joints are not used with natural stone.

    Bricks (clay) expand after being fired; concrete blocks shrink after being formed; natural stone ... probably does not do much of either, but when it does, it may be +/- from and back to its natural size (having already stabilized in size over centuries), unlike expanding brick which goes + + + and shrinking concrete which goes - - - until they stabilize ... at which time it may become +/- due to thermal expansion as well as wetting/drying.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Mark,

    Has the real stone veneer you've seen been anchored stone (with the air space) or adhered stone (which is adhered directly to the substrate wall)?

    Adhered stone would not need expansion joints as it is adhered to the wall (like the difference between stucco on frame walls with control joints and stucco on masonry/concrete without control joints).

    With anchored natural stone, I doubt there is a lot of expansion or contraction which would need to be compensated for. Just guessing as to why control joints are not used with natural stone.

    Bricks (clay) expand after being fired; concrete blocks shrink after being formed; natural stone ... probably does not do much of either, but when it does, it may be +/- from and back to its natural size (having already stabilized in size over centuries), unlike expanding brick which goes + + + and shrinking concrete which goes - - - until they stabilize ... at which time it may become +/- due to thermal expansion as well as wetting/drying.

    Mostly anchored stone on frame walls, but there in not always an airspace (usually I cannot tell whether there is an airspace, but in a few forensic stucco evaluations that had stone they had no airspace-and as much or more damage than the stucco).

    Yes, I believe that stone is pretty stable. Around here we never seen expansion joints in brick veneer either in residential construction (frame). Walls are usually short enough or have offsets so that expansion/contraction is not a big deal. I have seen serious issues in commercial buildings and row houses where joints were not installed and serious movement occurred.


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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Robert Old,

    Let me get this straight - KW leaves, then on another thread you go after Gene South (I believe it was Gene) as being the next KW, and here you are going after me for being the next KW??
    No, you did not get this straight. I am sure gene can talk for himself.

    I was being nice when I said: "What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," did you miss? You even put it at the beginning of the quote."

    If ... IF I was not being nice, I would have said 'What part of "Brick, when it comes out of the oven," do you not UNDERSTAND?'



    CORRECT ... "bricks are bricks", and concrete blocks are concrete blocks, and concrete pavers are concrete pavers, and ... concrete blocks are "masonry units", just like concrete pavers are "masonry units", just like bricks are "masonry units", albeit concrete blocks and concrete pavers are typically referred to as "concrete masonry units" to differentiate them from clay masonry units.

    And "concrete" is not "cement" - "cement" is one of the ingredients used to make "concrete".

    Your terminology is in need of work ... and, yes, I WAS being nice, but apparently you do not want to play "nice", seems you are the one disparaging others ... it's your call as to "play nice" or not - "I" prefer "playing nice".
    Jerry, thank you for saying you did not intentionally demean my post.
    I must have been a little off.
    Sorry.

    Also, my terminology is off, along with your Old Robert.
    Robert Young would be the correct name to use.
    So as expressed, you can come off as a temperamental fellow.

    Thank you for the terminology correction, Concrete.
    Cement would refer to the machinery that presses or extrudes concrete bricks, blocks, CMU, unit pavers and other concrete building products.

    I am sure I can narrate CMU or paver units, and know a concrete brick.
    I laid enough of all the above in my day.

    My point being, not all brick units are clay.
    Not all standards are the same.
    ASTM: Brick selection is made according to the specific application in which the brick will be used. Standards for brick cover specific uses of brick and classify the brick by performance characteristics.
    The performance criteria include strength, durability and aesthetic requirements.
    Selection of the proper specification and classification within that specification, along with proper design and construction, should result in expected performance.

    Standards used in Canadian building codes are prepared by the Canadian Standards Association (CSA)

    Anyway, why the threat or accusation?
    I did not go after Gene.
    Please read the post.

    If think your manner requires some polish. Teachers teach so all are included sir and boosters boast.
    Good day.

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-25-2015 at 04:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Also, my terminology is off, along with your Old Robert.
    Robert Young would be the correct name to use.
    The mix up of the name was following yours - no harm, no foul, I get called all kinds of names ... and I answer to all of them - but my answers may depend on what I am called.

    Anyway, why the threat or accusation?
    I did not go after Gene.
    Please read the post.
    It wasn't a threat, it was pointing out what you had done - I HAVE read the post, the question is now ... have you read the post?

    [/quote]If think your manner requires some polish.[/quote]

    My manner reflects the polish on the mirror one is looking into - if my manner looks like it needs "polish", then I recommend polishing your mirror and getting a better look at yourself and your manner.

    Teachers teach so all are included sir and boosters boast.
    Good day.
    More evidence that your mirror is in need of a good polish.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The mix up of the name was following yours - no harm, no foul, I get called all kinds of names ... and I answer to all of them - but my answers may depend on what I am called.



    It wasn't a threat, it was pointing out what you had done - I HAVE read the post, the question is now ... have you read the post?
    If think your manner requires some polish.[/quote]

    "You speak on behalf of Gene?
    gene, please excuse me, I am not use to some saying to me, "you think this is legal???"
    I took it offensively.
    Please excuse my manner.

    Jerry, As expressed, I look continually look inward any apologise if I misunderstood what was posted on the thread.
    I mentioned a colleague and his means of inspecting and reporting on a thread.
    You ran his name through the mud never even knowing him.
    Too bad.
    So sad!
    A highly respected homie.
    Raymond Wand filled you in.

    As to the thread, I repaired 3/4" inch granite 4' x4' foot slabs of marble mounted on copper wires.
    The substrate was solid CMU.
    It did not require expansion joints every 25 feet.
    There was a 1" air space.
    It was -24 on average for 10 days.
    I worked with propane heaters.

    I assisted mounting vertical flag-stone on CMU walls cutting my teeth in the masonry trades.
    They are fastened with wires and pointed with grout bags.

    No air space, no expansion joints.

    Never seen expansion joints in clay brick residential.
    In commercial, it depends upon what the design of the building.

    Best regards, "Old Robert."

    Gess Louise.



    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-22-2015 at 05:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Here are expansion joints on residential brick veneer.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    Here are expansion joints on residential brick veneer.
    Gary,
    thank you.

    Question, was the structure modified?
    Was there an extension added?
    The brick courses to me do not look like they are at the same horizon at the split.

    There are expansion joints and control joints.
    They are only used in cases of unavoidable movement.

    a. An expansion joint is a split / joint / that is designed into the structure and extends through the entire width of the wall. A structurally independent addition.
    b. A control joint, on the other hand, is a separation designed into the outer layer.

    Please, bare with me colleagues.
    I am doing this from memory.

    Mr. Peck is right about my terminology.
    I have what I narrate as "workman's slang," both French and English, mixed into may narratives at times.
    Please, try to be patient.
    I do not now everything,
    I try to help when I can,
    I enjoy being part of a conversation,
    I make errors along the way, as I am only human.

    I know I can grow with the help of you astute and mindful colleagues.

    Best regards.
    Robert

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-25-2015 at 04:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    This is a new construction Brick Veneer home. The bricks are fresh out of the oven around here these days and are going to grow over the next year. If they didn't leave the gap "expansion joint" , when the brick expands it is going to cause cracks in the mortar under windows or any other weak area in the wall. When the bricklayer bonds the brick to the brick ledge (which he is not supposed to do) when the brick expands it pops the corner of the foundation off. (corner pops are pretty popular down here. Most folks have at least one on the foundation). Never heard of a control joint in brick but we do have them in flatwork. A lot of new homes here have both brick and natural stone. Where the brick and stone meet they don't have any joints and these are very common areas for mortar cracks since the brick expands and contracts and the stone doesn't.

    Pictures are of corner pops caused by brick expansion when the brick is mortared to the brick ledge, common area for mortar cracks where they have stone and brick meeting and an expansion joint the builder didn't fill with caulk.

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    This is a new construction Brick Veneer home. The bricks are fresh out of the oven around here these days and are going to grow over the next year. If they didn't leave the gap "expansion joint" , when the brick expands it is going to cause cracks in the mortar under windows or any other weak area in the wall. When the bricklayer bonds the brick to the brick ledge (which he is not supposed to do) when the brick expands it pops the corner of the foundation off. (corner pops are pretty popular down here. Most folks have at least one on the foundation). Never heard of a control joint in brick but we do have them in flatwork. A lot of new homes here have both brick and natural stone. Where the brick and stone meet they don't have any joints and these are very common areas for mortar cracks since the brick expands and contracts and the stone doesn't.

    Pictures are of corner pops caused by brick expansion when the brick is mortared to the brick ledge, common area for mortar cracks where they have stone and brick meeting and an expansion joint the builder didn't fill with caulk.
    Thanks!
    Wow, right out the kiln?

    Bricks around here sit in the yard for a year.
    Re-clamers had great styles and sizes when I worked
    Then again, Quebec is a large producer of clay brick and concrete CMU.
    Geez Louise, just look at the Big O.
    Well.... on second thought, maybe not.
    It's an eye sore!

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    bricks 1.jpg
    That is poor bricklaying.
    The mortar looks rich.
    Smears everywhere.

    Look at the 1/6th batts or closers at the corners to fill the space.
    Wow, they would never stand on the brick line I was on with those habits.
    Even the foreman would get it in the neck if they finished a wall like that.

    The tooling, striking is awful as well.
    Brickies do not wait until the mortar is thumb tight?
    Dam I had 6 irons in my tool box.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Mr. Peak is right about ...
    Mr Old ... I presumed that you realized why the "Old" instead of "Young" on our previous exchange - but that is apparently not the case.

    Please review my last name ... I do answer to many things, and as I said previously, my answers are not always what one likes, so ... *I* presumed ... that *you* "got it" then.

    I do realize there is a language difference, nonetheless, though, there is also a typed out name to read.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Robert,
    You really need to get out more. The brickwork is not sloppy, it is a style that some folks prefer. Keeps all the big houses from looking the same. As far as any brick sitting around for a year around here, that ain't gonna happen for awhile. There are homes sitting waiting on the brick truck to arrive and make delivery. I bet they don't sit on the ground for 24 hours before they are getting stacked.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    In my neck of the woods, Quebec, the mortar finish is ironed or struck.
    No other mortar finishes.
    Raker joints were banned in 1980.
    Rustic ooze finish also banned the same year.

    The tooling is required to be tight at the face.
    To prevent moisture at the face / bed and prevent spalling.
    Lots of weather, freeze and thaw up here.

    Gary, I have seen brick-fields for many decades in Quebec.
    I have never seen such poor workmanship.
    Sorry Gary, just calling it like I see it.

    I see foundation corners cracked due to expansion. Do not get me wrong.

    I will try to remember to show you some great brick relief work in a town I frequent.
    Some of the nicest examples of true masonry I have ever seen.
    Almost every bond, flemish, common / American, English Cross, unique cobbling, herringbone parapets, and french corners.
    It would make an English brickie feel like moving back home.

    Thanks for the chatter.

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Mr. Peck, don't mind me.
    Also, excuse me if I misspelled your name.
    It was not purposely done.

    I all honestly, I am fatigued and tired most days.
    I would snap at Santa if he HO HO HO'ed to loud.

    Please excuse me.
    I will learn to adjust to everyone.

    Sorry for becoming inflamed.
    The reality is, I am old.
    Best regards.
    Robert

    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 10-25-2015 at 04:56 PM.
    Robert Young's Montreal Home Inspection Services Inc.
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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    I'm going to go with Robert and say the brickwork shown in the second and fourth photos posted most recently looks like crap (my words, not Robert's).


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    Unhappy Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Well, then the folks moving down from up there like to buy crappy looking big ol houses.
    Looks like we have only one brick mason here and he is doing all of the homes. Can't seem to get that mortar to stay between the brick.

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Very nice stone and brick masonry!
    Lovely detail, but remember, I am looking at this from way over here in the north.
    Looks like the art of masonry is not dead after all below the 49th parallel.
    Thank's buddy!

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    Quote Originally Posted by Llewel Walters View Post
    I hope some of you have experience with this. It is clear that when laying brick veneer in a residential application, expansion joints are required every 20-25' in a long wall. However, I have searched everywhere I can think of and I find no specifications for expansion joints when the brick cladding is replaced with natural stone. We are not discussing adhered faux stone veneers, but natural stone laid just like brick (wall ties, etc.) It makes sense to me that they should be there, but I can find no requirements. The Building Stone Institute "recommends" expansion joints, but there is no recommendation on spacing, etc.
    Looks like you had enough replies.......apples and oranges.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Llewel Walters View Post
    I hope some of you have experience with this. It is clear that when laying brick veneer in a residential application, expansion joints are required every 20-25' in a long wall. However, I have searched everywhere I can think of and I find no specifications for expansion joints when the brick cladding is replaced with natural stone. We are not discussing adhered faux stone veneers, but natural stone laid just like brick (wall ties, etc.) It makes sense to me that they should be there, but I can find no requirements. The Building Stone Institute "recommends" expansion joints, but there is no recommendation on spacing, etc.
    Looks like you had enough replies.......apples and oranges.

    Chicagopropertyinspection.com

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    Default Re: Expansion Joints in Natural Stone anchored Veneer

    So in reference to the corner pops shown in the pics above,bricks are mortared to the concrete ledge.what is the application there to prevent this from happening?


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