Thread: There are over 12 different types of stucco/EIFS cladding

Steven,
What is the class you recommended, there is an online class. It's about 800 dollars.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

...the drawing/photo is not very clear, but if it shows what it looks like it shows to me, the lath is an incorrect type; ...

I asked Ron about the lath. His response:
"There are two gauges of stucco netting one is heavier than the other. The
stucco netting we used is the lighter gauge and it looks like chicken wire;
however, it is an approved stucco netting. Many parts of the country only
use diamond lath; it also comes in two weights."

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

Steven,
What is the class you recommended, there is an online class. It's about 800 dollars.

The only on-line class that I can attest to is from EDI (Exterior Design Institute).

It is a great starter course. More than enough information for a Home Inspector.

Expanded metal lath comes in THREE types, 1.75, 2.5, & 3.4.
Now, can the "expert" tell us what these numbers mean?
Good thing I don't come here for correct info, only laughs!

Too easy. If you want to make this a learning session, add; what factors are considered when selecting which lath to use.

A good reference on metal lath installation may at found at

NAAMM Standard EMLA 820-09

"Guide Specifications for Metal Lathing and Furring".

A Question for John Carroll and Dan Harris,

I am in Tucson and most of my inspections are in the "Stucco Jungle". Most of my 800 plus inspections have been on stucco homes. I have only had one that was not an obvious standard stucco system. I was told by the seller that it was Pre engineered panels and wrote it up that way in my report. Is This EIFS or something else.

I have never seen what I thought was EIFS here in Tucson, Am I missing something?

Thanks
Tom McDonald
Certified ASHI inspector

Not sure,Tom. Pre-engineered panels could be almost anything, do you have any pictures?

I don't think EIFS is done anymore on residential production homes out your way, You will probably see more 1-Kote stucco out here on homes with some of the custom homes employing a synthetic, or EIFS manufacturers such as Dryvit, Senergy or STO, acrylic finish coat.
If you want to go see what EIFS looks like, go to most any Walmart, Sam's Club or major food store like Albertsons or Safeway that has been built in the last ten years, and more than likely part of it will have EIFS.

Thanks for the reply John.

I dont have any pics, I inspected the house about two years ago I was working for another company so I dont have access to the report anymore. It was obvious panels with metal joints every four feet as well as the top and bottom. I did not see any evedence of moisture intrusion although the hose had a covered patio all the way around.

Most Stucco homes here are single coat, although some older ones are the old three coats (scatch, brown, and color) at least thats what we called them 30 years ago when I was "slinging mud' just out of high school...... Boy, I was in good shape back then.

There is a brand new Wal-Mart here in Oro Valley. I will go poke and prod it next week.

Thanks again

“Five years from now on the web for free you’ll be able to find the best lectures in the world,” Gates said at the Techonomy conference in Lake Tahoe, CA today. “It will be better than any single university,” he continued.

Above is a quote from Bill gates.

I print the above because I can not believe the closed minds here.
ASHI Inspectors full of hate for a man that came here to educate through the internet that you guys hate so much that you hang out here looking for answers.
What hypocrites.

Now go here Bill Gates: In Five Years The Best Education Will Come From The Web try to learn something from this internet link that you all claim can not be learned from even though all of you come here asking or answering questions.
perhaps we should all just jet to each others homes to ask in person to make sure we are not learning the NACHI way.

P.S I give Ben a hard time on the NACHI forums for being a single minded salesman, but that does not change how valid his message is.
Yes he is not good at being one of the guys.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

but that does not change how valid his message is.

The problem is not just the validity of Ben's message but also of the accuracy of his message - inaccurate information leads to not being pertinent or valid.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The problem is not just the validity of Ben's message but also of the accuracy of his message - inaccurate information leads to not being pertinent or valid.

Please explain what in his course is incorrect ,as I am sure if you provide proof with a verifiable source he will make corrections.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Please explain what in his course is incorrect ,as I am sure if you provide proof with a verifiable source he will make corrections.

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

I believe he said he was not an expert and he does not teach courses in this subject. Reread post #65. Your statement is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by David O'Keefe

I believe he said he was not an expert and he does not teach courses in this subject. Reread post #65. Your statement is inaccurate.

I disagree---didn't want to go here, did not want to pick, but read the following posts (I stopped at #44): #7 - Expert implied by association with "expert"; #25 - reference to doing Training; #40 - Reference to doing On-line education; #42 - Reference to doing Training; #44 - Reference to giving Instruction.

Yes, in post #65 he does say he feels that he is not an expert. Who does admit they are an expert? Do you? I don't, although I have been in my field for many years. If you want to split hairs--yes he did say that he isn't. However, the unspoken implication is there based upon the variety of accomplishments. Experts make mistakes, we all do. But, Ben's heart is in the right place.

As for the other issues---I always remember my engineer's pencil---it has an eraser on both ends! (Sorry engineers)

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

I am suspect of what?
Was information being attacked or a person?
Drama

Originally Posted by Rich Goeken

Some of this material has already been posted on this site and issues were pointed out at that time. You may research if you like, instead of putting a plank on your shoulder and challenging everyone here for a fight.

You already are suspect in my mind by kissing B G's butt (this comes from being in the IS arena for over 30 years). A person posted material that had errors. This same person implied that he was an expert as he taught courses in this subject. There were comments made on the accuracy of his material.

You may not get answers at all because what you are asking is ludicrous.

Sorry to everyone--- clarification needed here!!! "B G's" = Bill Gate's. Apologize for any confusion.

Basic Components include:
· Many are proprietary requiring ICC Evaluation Reports.
· Portland Cement Stucco with polymers and fiberglass reinforcing.
· Requires a Moisture Barrier on moisture sensitive substrates.
· Hard surface which helps resist impact damage.
· Control joint are required but spacing is to be specified by the design professional (typically to limit panels to 144 square feet).
· Metal lath (stucco netting or diamond lath)
· Metal casing bead or J-bead or weep screed
· Minimum 3/8” basecoat plus finish coat

The incidence of cracking is dependent on the materials used and installation techniques. May or may not have foam insulation behind stucco; it can have EPS or XPS insulation behind the system. This does not make this an EIFS system as defined by stucco or insurance industries. One-Coat Stucco systems are very popular since problems with EIFS have surfaced.

Reposted

Sometimes I get all "forum'd out," and may not come around for a while. Because of that, it is possible that I may have missed something. I am really not privy to, nor do I wish to become privy to all of the politics. I do not know Ben Gromiko, nor do I know much about him. I believe there are 3 sides to every story… your side, my side, and what really happened.

There have been some complaints about free advertising that I agree with. But, I don't think that if BG came here, took out an ad, and said; "hey guys, I'm trying to develop an on line course for inspectors, about EIFS," that he would have gotten any different reception.

G-D knows, some HIs do need help with EIFS.

I did notice that the moment he stuck his head up, the responses were more personal in nature, as compared to factual. Guys, that is getting so boring.

Now, like I said, I really don't know Ben. Maybe he is Dracula in disguise... or Dracula’s brother and he's not in disguise, and he just looks that way.

But, unless he bit Ron Huffman on the neck, anything that Ron is connected to, at the very least deserves the respect of an open mind. Personally, I value what I learned from Ron Huffman and I appreciated his input during a past EW case. He is a good man and he is a nice man. I respect his integrity and credentials.

What bothers me is the certification part. In the EIFS world, a Certified EIFS Inspection is a very specific item. And although technically, anybody that takes a online class, is "Certified," and in the real world may very well be capable of doing a Home Inspection of an EIFS home, really isn't qualified to do an EIFS inspection... a real EIFS inspection. The kind that if any one of us had a Grandmother that lived far away, we would advise her to get.

I am reminded of a true story. My family was in the meat business for generations. Years ago, my brothers had an opportunity to invest in a pig that was being developed that would have been kosher. They didn't invest, which was good. It turned out the project failed because the Chief Rabbis did not accept the pig. They felt that because of the similarity to the non-kosher pig, people would not be able to tell the difference and choose the wrong one.

By the way, my first EIFS class was online (EDI). I think it was great! It gave me the opportunity to learn at my own pace. Which also means I could read and reread as much as necessary. There was an absolutely tremendous amount of information. The final test was proctored.

When I was done I was "certified", and I inspected EIFS. But it took years of practice, more classes, live class, studies, and experience to be able to do the inspection for Granny. It also took the opportunity to have access to enough EIFS to experiment with.

New
The reason I deleted the original post was that I suddenly felt that this thread was going in circles. I would appreciate if it could be factual and not personal. I would also appreciate if Ben would respond to the technical challenges that are presented, and stop simply pasting pages from a Power Point presentation. They are incomplete thoughts, I question some of the content, and as they are presented, they are gibberish.
Also, to be fair, earlier in this thread I requested that a link to my website be removed. It was removed some time ago. If you read up, I posted "thank you," in respect to its removal.
Thank you to those that have contacted me. You friendship and comradery is valued and respected.

This past Saturday I did an EIFS inspection. With a helper I worked on the home for 10 hours. My findings will have an effect on about $150,000.00 - $200,000.00 dollars worth of decisions by the homeowner.

Does anybody think they are going to do this in the course of a normal home inspection? The best advice a knowlegable Home Inspector can give his client is to have a full EIFS inspection by someone that specializes in EIFS. Just like when you inspect a boiler, you turn it on, you turn it off... but the bottom line is; if you suspect something , you recommend a "boiler specialist?"

Yes, a HI should know how to identify EIFS. But don't fool yourself or you clients. It doesn't matter what you think you see, you really don't know anything for sure unless you do a full inspection. You are not an EIFS Inspector unless you are willing to prescribe repairs/retrofits. You have to also be willing to make the decision of ripping it off, and living with what is found... or not found.

Thank you Steven Turetsky!

One last comment about the EIFS issue, then I'm done. The thing everyone needs to remember is this.
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Commercial Architects and specifiers have continued to use this system right on through the North/ South Carolina lawsuit storm. Why do you think that is? Hundreds of thousands of buildings across the country using the same barrier system that was under attack in those lawsuits.
Maybe, just maybe, the incentive to bring class action lawsuits is directly proportional to the size of the class. After all, there would be far less possibility of getting a class action involving a hundred or so buildings in one state against a hundred different builders versus 500 homeowners against one builder in a single city.
Why has no one sued the Architects who designed the buildings, specified the systems, and approved the submittals if the system was inherently defective?
ANSWER: BECAUSE THERE IS NO MONEY THERE!
An awful lot of lies and distortions, misdirection and obfuscation can occur when there is a lot of money involved. (See BP spill)

Hi John,

How's it going?

In a perfect world the architect would be at blame... to a point. Yes, he should include specifications in the plans. But it is not necessarily his responsibility to verify that the installer is following specs... unless he is getting paid for that service, in which case, he probably isn't an EIFS specialist, so an EIFS specialist would be money better spent.

In the real world, the way an architect specifies EIFS is by simply including the manufacturer's specifications. (Just hands over a booklet) Once again, an EIFS specialist is better qualified for verification. In reality and unfortunately, many if not most build plans are conceptual only, and don't include in-depth details. They are simply adequate to pull permits, and also in actuality, most builds do not have the budget for inspections. Most homeowners are under the impression that since the AHJ does building inspections; it has to be a good job. (Excuse me while I puke) We all know that is simply not true. Most homeowners fall for the “Certified Installer” spiel. Certified by the supply house that sells him the material. Hahahahaha They think because the installer is “Certified” there are surely going to get a good job. They get a good hosing.

In most cases they get the cheapest job, for the cheapest price, with as many corners cut as the installer can get away with. You are an installer. What percentage of your installations are under the architect's eye? Probably not many, I would also venture to guess that you do quite a few jobs that involve no architect at all.

So John, do you do all of you installations according to manufacturer's specs? Do you have any specs that exceed the manufacturer's specs? Well, I'm sure that you do, so let me ask you this; how many other installers do you think follow the same high standards? Most? Some? Few? None?

I’m sure you’ve seen EIFS failures and repaired EIFS jobs. Who do you think installed it? The architect, or perhaps it is the homeowner's fault for not asking the right questions. My guess is that some EIFS installer installed every poor EIFS installation. Or maybe it was one bad installer that did all the bad work we hear about, and all the other installers do great work.

From all of the installations you have seen, how many of them were due directly to a failure with the ... "stuff that comes in the bucket, or defective EPS, or defective mesh"... probably few. So is EIFS crap? I don’t think so. But if you ask me if EIFS installations are crap, I would have to say the major majority are. So, in extension, most EIFS homes are crap.

You know, I probably spend more time with clients that are trying to save/correct (if possible) the home that they already own, than I do with clients that are considering purchasing an EIFS home.

You also stated that besides being an installer (PM), you are an estimator. Does that mean that it is your job to keep the men working, to get the work? The most work? Do you get the jobs by charging double what the other installers charge? I mean, all the extra work and materials cost money. Do you throw in for free and lose money on the job? Probably not if you want to keep your job. Or do you try to submit proposals that will win the job?

I used to think that all of the bad installations were because the installer did not know how to do it right. What I learned it that many installers know the manufacturer's specs, but it order to get the job they don’t charge for it and they don’t do it because they didn’t charge for it. It sounds like a vicious circle… it is.

I'm also sure that most installers don't even advise the client about the upgrades... or flashing. Do you think they say... do you say; "yeah lady, I'll do the job for $10,000.00, but you will need another $3,000.00 worth of work if you want a good job, and you're also going to need an additional $1,500.00 worth of flashing." do you also say;" and if you don't do the extras, I won't do the job."

When you crew shows up to do the installation, do you send everyone home and shut the job down because the flashing isn't right? Who is responsible for your flashing?

Well, I'm sure... most (or course not you), simply book the jobs, do the work, take the money and run. Since most failures don't shop up for quite some time, most get away with it.

One other thing, in order to get the job and calm down the frightened client who heard about all the bad EIFS, most installers (not you), tell the client about the "Ten Year Warranty," from the manufacturer. Do you, I mean they, tell the client that when the manufacturer comes to inspect the job, and it is not installed as per specs; that the warranty is null and void?

Or in addition to the manufacturer's warranty, do you (or your company) also issue a guarantee that the job has been installed as per specs?

The good news is that some AHJs are smartening up. There are some states that require a contract with a EIFS Inspector before the initial building permit is issued.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

Hi John,

How's it going?

In a perfect world the architect would be at blame... to a point. Yes, he should include specifications in the plans. But it is not necessarily his responsibility to verify that the installer is following specs... unless he is getting paid for that service, in which case, he probably isn't an EIFS specialist, so an EIFS specialist would be money better spent.

In the real world, the way an architect specifies EIFS is by simply including the manufacturer's specifications. (Just hands over a booklet) Once again, an EIFS specialist is better qualified for verification. In reality and unfortunately, many if not most build plans are conceptual only, and don't include in-depth details. They are simply adequate to pull permits, and also in actuality, most builds do not have the budget for inspections. Most homeowners are under the impression that since the AHJ does building inspections; it has to be a good job. (Excuse me while I puke) We all know that is simply not true. Most homeowners fall for the “Certified Installer” spiel. Certified by the supply house that sells him the material. Hahahahaha They think because the installer is “Certified” there are surely going to get a good job. They get a good hosing.

In most cases they get the cheapest job, for the cheapest price, with as many corners cut as the installer can get away with. You are an installer. What percentage of your installations are under the architect's eye? Probably not many, I would also venture to guess that you do quite a few jobs that involve no architect at all.

So John, do you do all of you installations according to manufacturer's specs? Do you have any specs that exceed the manufacturer's specs? Well, I'm sure that you do, so let me ask you this; how many other installers do you think follow the same high standards? Most? Some? Few? None?

I’m sure you’ve seen EIFS failures and repaired EIFS jobs. Who do you think installed it? The architect, or perhaps it is the homeowner's fault for not asking the right questions. My guess is that some EIFS installer installed every poor EIFS installation. Or maybe it was one bad installer that did all the bad work we hear about, and all the other installers do great work.

From all of the installations you have seen, how many of them were due directly to a failure with the ... "stuff that comes in the bucket, or defective EPS, or defective mesh"... probably few. So is EIFS crap? I don’t think so. But if you ask me if EIFS installations are crap, I would have to say the major majority are. So, in extension, most EIFS homes are crap.

You know, I probably spend more time with clients that are trying to save/correct (if possible) the home that they already own, than I do with clients that are considering purchasing an EIFS home.

You also stated that besides being an installer (PM), you are an estimator. Does that mean that it is your job to keep the men working, to get the work? The most work? Do you get the jobs by charging double what the other installers charge? I mean, all the extra work and materials cost money. Do you throw in for free and lose money on the job? Probably not if you want to keep your job. Or do you try to submit proposals that will win the job?

I used to think that all of the bad installations were because the installer did not know how to do it right. What I learned it that many installers know the manufacturer's specs, but it order to get the job they don’t charge for it and they don’t do it because they didn’t charge for it. It sounds like a vicious circle… it is.

I'm also sure that most installers don't even advise the client about the upgrades... or flashing. Do you think they say... do you say; "yeah lady, I'll do the job for $10,000.00, but you will need another $3,000.00 worth of work if you want a good job, and you're also going to need an additional $1,500.00 worth of flashing." do you also say;" and if you don't do the extras, I won't do the job."

When you crew shows up to do the installation, do you send everyone home and shut the job down because the flashing isn't right? Who is responsible for your flashing?

Well, I'm sure... most (or course not you), simply book the jobs, do the work, take the money and run. Since most failures don't shop up for quite some time, most get away with it.

One other thing, in order to get the job and calm down the frightened client who heard about all the bad EIFS, most installers (not you), tell the client about the "Ten Year Warranty," from the manufacturer. Do you, I mean they, tell the client that when the manufacturer comes to inspect the job, and it is not installed as per specs; that the warranty is null and void?

Or in addition to the manufacturer's warranty, do you (or your company) also issue a guarantee that the job has been installed as per specs?

The good news is that some AHJs are smartening up. There are some states that require a contract with a EIFS Inspector before the initial building permit is issued.

Sorry, Steven, not following what this diatribe has to do with my comment above...feel free to make the connection for me, use as many words as you like. I'll check back in a week or so...