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  1. #131
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    I met the all the gorgeous intelligent ladies of NACHI and Lisa is part of that group.
    Just shows Nick does something right.

    What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.
    Don't tease me Bob,

    If I join INACHI, it will be just to meet Lisa .

    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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  2. #132
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Maybe so but to my benefit.
    Guess capitalism is not such a bad thing after all even though I just took a test posted over there that says I am 48% capitalist and 52% socialist.

    Any NACHI members over here get back as Nick is still playing Santa.
    What does that make you then? A Sociocap


  3. #133
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Don't tease me Bob,

    If I ever join INACHI, it will be just to meet Lisa .
    Never knew you quit.
    You were a member but just never posted.

    Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

    Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
    May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections?


  4. #134
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Never knew you quit.
    You were a member but just never posted.

    Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

    Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
    May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections?
    I joined when I first acquired my license, and was advised to join an association. I let my membership lapse because I was turned off by the association bashing.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  5. #135
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    I joined when I first acquired my license, and was advised to join an association. I let my membership lapse because I was turned off by the association bashing.
    Good thing you are a member here where that never occurs Steve.
    No exit and No escape.
    I am guessing the Handpuppet fellow at I.J did that to you.
    Are they still around?
    They threw me out years ago for the crime of disagreeing NACHI is a link farm and Google banned it.
    What lies.


  6. #136
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Good thing you are a member here where that never occurs Steve.
    No exit and No escape.
    I am guessing the Handpuppet fellow at I.J did that to you.
    Are they still around?
    They threw me out years ago for the crime of disagreeing NACHI is a link farm and Google banned it.
    What lies.
    The bashing occurs here, there, and everywhere.

    We each like a different flavor, and to be honest; I agree with some of the issues from both sides of the bash. Thus, neither became my flavor.

    I just get annoyed when it always turns to the same old, stale, and worthless banter.

    I haven't visited TIJ in quite a while, and sometimes I miss it. There are some really super super folks there. Some folks made a habit of addressing other folks in a way that was less than respectable. I didn't like that.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  7. #137
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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  8. #138
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Ted,

    Are you anywhere near Austin?

    I'll be there for classes 2 weeks in Feb.

    Maybe we can go to a rodeo.
    About three hours away. What classes are you taking? I try not to venture too far away from DFW because someone my steal me and not let me come back but if the classes are good?


  9. #139
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    My company is sending me for an advanced class on rating non sprinklered buildings.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  10. #140
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    800, 80, or 8000, no one here really cares.
    Except for Dan, and the guy that likes to argue with him.
    Me?
    I'm just one of many here that enjoys reading topics, and sharing info if I feel it will benefit another inspector, and seeing other inspectors share information on this site.
    I was under the impression that was the purpose of this site.

    If I want to purchase an inspection product, I'll do it by clicking the venders ads and determine if what a certain vender offers works for me.


    I get sick of seeing non -ending sales crap [ and my weenie is bigger that your weenie crap] from one assoiciation, only to see that association owner and members on their site bash and lie about inspectors from different assocations, then come here and begs for our $s .. Dang 2 faced SOBs


    Do you ever see Lisa posting on her site?

    I do recall Ben doing the same amount of sales crap on her site , until the members there called him out on it.

    Last edited by Dan Harris; 12-19-2011 at 10:01 PM.
    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
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  11. #141
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Never knew you quit.
    You were a member but just never posted.

    Maybe you can win a free lifetime membership as he does give them out every year.

    Now if only Active Rain would give out Agents to refer us.LOL
    May never happen after my post tonight however.How Do You View Home Inspections?
    In my minds eye this is absolute ... well I am actually looking for your answers to what this sounds like and is.

    A quote from an inspector and I left the inspectors and Realtors name out because I did not know the intent of his post or what the wording really meant.

    "Realtor Name of realtor), What I do with my home inspections is to separate the maintenance items from the critical items. That way everything is shown but it makes it easier for the Realtor to determine what issues is more serious."

    Yes, there are maintenance items and critical items. I do not and never have separated the two. If there is a concern then there is a concern. I highlight all concerns and do not highlight maintenance issues unless it is due to lack of maintenance as to why something failed. If it is a maintenance item that needs expressing so the concern does not happen again then I highlight it just as I would any other concern.

    """""It makes it easier for the Realtor to determine what issues is more serious""""""

    The inspection was not done for the Realtor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It is not up to the inspector or the realtor to try and figure out what the client wants to add to an addendum. It is not the Realtors inspection. It is the clients inspection and the report. I did not see one mention of a client in that short quote. Where the heck did the client go. When did it become an issue for an inspector to point out to a Realtor what is critical or not. Why is an inspector helping in the sale of the property instead of keeping things between the inspector and the client. Why is anyone giving a Realtor the first concern before the buyer.

    That is why Realtors should be banned from ..... well you guys know the rest of the story.

    That entire short quote says

    I am working for the benefit of you to move the sale of the home along much smoother. I am going to do everything I can for you (the realtor) to keep getting all of YOUR inspections. I want to be your only vendor and let the client that gets between us be damned.


  12. #142
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    My company is sending me for an advanced class on rating non sprinklered buildings.
    Please send me the info. It sounds interesting. Your company is sending you? I thought you were the company?


  13. #143
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    What does that make you then? A Sociocap
    Heh heh,that may be true.
    I think pure forms of either never would work.

    Pure capitalism is well represented in the old film "RoboCop"
    Socialism makes the masses lazy.


  14. #144
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Please send me the info. It sounds interesting. Your company is sending you? I thought you were the company?
    Dan,

    In addition to my private practice, I work for a company that specializes in underwriting surveys. Unfortunately, the class is not open to the public. This will be my second 2 week trip to Austin. After this I will be going to the University of Delaware for a class inspecting and rating sprinkler systems.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  15. #145
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    The bashing occurs here, there, and everywhere.

    We each like a different flavor, and to be honest; I agree with some of the issues from both sides of the bash. Thus, neither became my flavor.

    I just get annoyed when it always turns to the same old, stale, and worthless banter.

    I haven't visited TIJ in quite a while, and sometimes I miss it. There are some really super super folks there. Some folks made a habit of addressing other folks in a way that was less than respectable. I didn't like that.
    I agree with you as it was my first forum and the sad part is with all the knowledge many there think they are all knowing and think alike as if trained to be that way.
    Watch "Village of the Damned".
    Too many seem to answer according to what they think will get them a doggy treat and saying only what the several regulars want to hear.
    After obtaining reports from some of these experts I was not as impressed as I thought I would be.
    My sample report is very old and I leave it up just for kicks since it gives those who hate me a chance to rant.


  16. #146
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Dan,

    In addition to my private practice, I work for a company that specializes in underwriting surveys. Unfortunately, the class is not open to the public. This will be my second 2 week trip to Austin. After this I will be going to the University of Delaware for a class inspecting and rating sprinkler systems.
    Glad that is working out for you Steve.
    You deserve it.


  17. #147
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Elliott View Post
    Glad that is working out for you Steve.
    You deserve it.
    Thank you.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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  18. #148
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI
    I feel the urge to scratch, so I must be ITCHI already? Where do we sign up?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #149
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    We are all ITCHI

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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  20. #150
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky
    Perhaps I should start my own org. I could call it International Trained Certified Home Inspectors... ITCHI
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky
    We are all ITCHI
    Just got a PM from SCRATCHI.org, the

    Surreptitiously
    Certified
    Redundantly
    Associatated
    Transdisciplinarity
    Credentialed
    Home
    Inspectors

    Steve, apparently they're gearing up for the ITCHI-SCRATCHI edition of the .ORG WARS!



  21. #151
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post


    Just got a PM from SCRATCHI.org, the

    Surreptitiously
    Certified
    Redundantly
    Associatated
    Transdisciplinarity
    Credentialed
    Home
    Inspectors

    Steve, apparently they're gearing up for the ITCHI-SCRATCHI edition of the .ORG WARS!

    If we are ITCHI, and they are SCRATCHI everyone should get along just fine.

    Just as long as nobody is BITCHI

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
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  22. #152
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    If you join I.T.C.H.I you automatically need S.C.R.A.T.C.H.I
    I find both of them irritating.


  23. #153
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Dr. Watson,

    You know some big words.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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  24. #154
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    I started reading from the top of this thread, and there was a lively discussion about whether or not the modern EIFS was being installed incorrectly, or whether it should even be installed over a wood framed house. I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth, and zipped down to the bottom of the thread to see the latest postings. Wow, here we go again - I'm finding a pissing contest about HI organizations. Go figure! How, and more importantly, why does this happen?

    I hope nobody minds, but I'm still going to offer my comment on the original topic, mostly just to remind you all of what it was. I see a combination of two main problems with houses that have the newer EIFS installed. One is that there are still a lot of installers that just don't know how to do it correctly. They sometimes don't flash it correctly, and more often they don't allow for proper drainage of the water that it still going to get behind it. The other problem is that other trades people that have to deal with it (EIFS) don't have the foggiest idea of how to properly protect it and work with it when they install the decks, slabs, HVAC installations, etc. that they're responsible for. They cut penetrations but don't reseal them properly, or they end up blocking the drainage features.

    I would think that the architects should be doing a better job of designing and specifying details needed when doing installations where EIFS is involved. And then the general contractors should be doing a better job of overseeing and ensuring that the knowledge and experience necessary for working with this stuff is present with everybody working on a job where EIFS is being installed, no matter what their trade is.

    That's my take on it. Sorry for the interruption. You all can get back to your off-topic ranting again now!


  25. #155
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Chambers View Post
    I
    - I'm finding a pissing contest about HI organizations. Go figure! How, and more importantly, why does this happen?

    That's my take on it. Sorry for the interruption. You all can get back to your off-topic ranting again now!
    My take, it's pretty simple, it's not only with this topic . If you follow this topic you have several inspectors discussing a topic and suggestions how to address them, IE just sharing free information [the intent of this site]

    Everythings going fine UNTIL you have someone from from one association[an association owner that tells the public if you don't pay him, you are a dumb stupid scumbag and other choice words] that does not have anything to add to the comments.
    Her, his sole objective is I wanta play BUT 1st you need to pay me $365.00 and then I'll teach you the way things should be done,

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

  26. #156
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Michael,

    You are right about this thread being hijacked, and Dan is correct when he says that the threads always get hijacked.

    Getting back to the intent of this thread, before it gets hijacked again; Yes ultimately it is the responsibility of the architect to include specifications with the plans, and usually it amounts to little more than the manufacturer's handbook (specifications). You can say the the general contractor should ensure it is done correctly, but I doubt if he knows what is correct, and usually listens to his sub who tells him "I've been doing it this way for 30 Years".

    The only way to ensure that the product is done correctly is to hire an expert to oversee the installation, form day 1. No, from before the installer even bids the job, this way the installer understands what is expected of him.

    Don't get the wrong idea about EIFS, every type of system has its problems, EIFS is no different. But if it is installed correctly the first time, it should be quite successful.

    Last edited by Steven Turetsky; 12-21-2011 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Wanted to let Dan have the last word
    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
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  27. #157
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    By the way Michael, some day go into an EIFS showroom, check out all the techniques and different material they offer to prevent failures. See if even the most basic look like any installation you have seen.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  28. #158
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    By the way Michael, some day go into an EIFS showroom, check out all the techniques and different material they offer to prevent failures. See if even the most basic look like any installation you have seen.
    Boy, I'll bet that would be an eye opener! I'll have to do that - good suggestion!

    I like the stuff, but it's certainly not idiot proof!


  29. #159
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    General Rule...

    All Stucco / Veneer Stone Applications are Improperly Installed.
    Inspect looking for reasons to disprove your original findings and opinion.

    You will always find something wrong 100 % of the time...


  30. #160
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    I didn't read all this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating someone else here. There were a lot of people complaining that EIFS installers do a lousy job of flashing. I just wanted to point out that some of the most important flashing is done when things like windows and doors are installed, and can't be done as effectively afterwards. So really there has to be better communication between subs, or better oversight by the contractor, to get things done right - it can't all be blamed on the EIFS installers.

    Oh, and I think someone asked about regional differences. In the Minneapolis area I see lots and lots of stucco, and rarely any EIFS.

    That's all!

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  31. #161
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    I didn't read all this thread, so I hope I'm not repeating someone else here. There were a lot of people complaining that EIFS installers do a lousy job of flashing. I just wanted to point out that some of the most important flashing is done when things like windows and doors are installed, and can't be done as effectively afterwards. So really there has to be better communication between subs, or better oversight by the contractor, to get things done right - it can't all be blamed on the EIFS installers.

    Oh, and I think someone asked about regional differences. In the Minneapolis area I see lots and lots of stucco, and rarely any EIFS.

    That's all!
    .
    Kristi,

    The EIFS Installers are Responsible for The Installation, proper flashing being a component.
    .

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 02-19-2012 at 05:29 PM. Reason: just removed
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  32. #162
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

    My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  33. #163
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Kristi,

    Your are point on about different flashings installed at different phases. For this reason, it is ultimately the responsibility of the architect to specify flashing, and or the builder to insure that they are installed.

    The reason it all falls onto the EIFS installer is because once he installs, it is an indication that he has accepted it. It is the "last man to work on it owns it" scenario.

    I always advise that prior to an installation the site be inspected by an EIFS inspector/building envelope inspector/quality control inspector to ensure that the site is properly prepared and ready for installation. I also recommend that the EIFS inspector be involved with the architect and that the installer be made aware of the specifications prior to bidding the job.

    Finally, the installation should be inspected at phases to insure that each step is done properly, PRIOR to the next phase beginning.

    Steven Turetsky, UID #16000002314
    homeinspectionsnewyork.com
    eifsinspectionsnewyork.com

  34. #164
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

    My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.
    There is No Siding .

    EIFS is The Wall Cladding .

    The Installer is Responsible to Inspect The Dwelling before Installation

    ** I have Subscriptions to many threads and receive email as to keep current. I'm Posting to my subscribed threads.

    Last edited by Billy Stephens; 02-19-2012 at 08:39 PM.
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  35. #165
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Billy, you seem to be waiting for me to post so that you can knock down what I say.

    My point is that they don't do all the flashing unless they also install the windows, doors, roof, etc, and that the people who do have to keep in mind the siding system when they flash. That's what I would think, anyway, though I don't know much about EIFS. I know that there's other flashing that's installed by the siding crew, but what's there to begin with must play a role.
    Kristi, the EIFS and most other types of cladding are installed after the flashing.doors and windows are already in.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  36. #166
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Scott, that's my point exactly. That's why those who are doing the pre-cladding flashing have to know about any particular requirements for the EIFS.

    Billy, some people call it siding, but if that isn't the proper term, thanks for letting me know.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

  37. #167
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    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kristi Silber View Post
    Scott, that's my point exactly. That's why those who are doing the pre-cladding flashing have to know about any particular requirements for the EIFS.

    Billy, some people call it siding, but if that isn't the proper term, thanks for letting me know.
    Yes, that is true but in the end it is the EIFS contractor that has the final say so in the matter. If the flashing is not correct they should not install the cladding but we never see this happen. They just go ahead and slap it up and move on to the next victim!

    My experience has shown me that the GC/Builder's do not have a clue as to how the various cladding's need to be properly installed. They all depend on the various contractors to do the job correct even though the GC/Builder has the final responsibility for the performance of the house and it's installed systems. If you were a GC/Builder would you not want to know how things in the home's you are building should be installed or built? I would!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  38. #168
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky View Post
    Your are point on about different flashings installed at different phases. For this reason, it is ultimately the responsibility of the architect to specify flashing, and or the builder to insure that they are installed.

    The reason it all falls onto the EIFS installer is because once he installs, it is an indication that he has accepted it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    Yes, that is true but in the end it is the EIFS contractor that has the final say so in the matter. If the flashing is not correct they should not install the cladding but we never see this happen. They just go ahead and slap it up and move on to the next victim!
    The above is true with every contractor and subcontractor: It is the contractors responsibility to report non-conforming conditions/prior work by others to the general contractor, architect, or engineer (depending on the type of work) for corrections BEFORE the contractor starts work.

    As soon as the contractor starts work and begins to cover up that non-conforming condition/prior work, then the contractor is deemed to have ACCEPTED that non-conforming condition/prior work as their responsibility and that the non-conforming condition/prior work will not impeded or affect their work.

    On larger jobs, such as high-rises, non-conforming conditions/prior work is more likely to be reported as the contractor does not to take responsibility for that non-conforming condition/prior work.

    On houses, it seems to be a matter of "Git R Done" without regard to how it 'gits done'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  39. #169
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN
    Posts
    780

    Default Re: Why can't an inspector ID Stucco?

    Yeah, fair enough, I guess I made it sound like it was the responsibility of the others to ensure the flashing was right for the EIFS installers. All I really meant was that there had to be communication and oversight long before the EIFS actually went up, and that could be a reason so many installations fail. Who knows, maybe some good EIFS installers get fed up with others' lousy flashing!

    That's one problem with the way houses are built today, I reckon: There are different people doing each step of the building, all having to deal with whatever stupid mistakes the guys (and girls!) before them made. It's a different experience doing almost everything to build a house - you tend to take more pride in the job, I'd think.

    Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago.
    - James Burgh, 1754.

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