Thread: What's Missing Here?

This NJ home was built in 2005 with EIFS and stone veneer. Effective November 3, 2003, the building code for residential construction in New Jersey, has been amended to ban the use of EIFS which does not include
house-wrap and a secondary drainage mechanism. There is no visible secondary drainage mechanism which I usually see as an "offset" at the bottom of the EIFS and top of the foundation wall. ( The photo with the red lines.) I have a concern about the stucco on to the veneer, again, no secondary drainage mechanism.
Can someone explain to me how the stucco should drain in both examples?
Thanks Peter

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Is it stucco or EIFS? You have called it both, you need to call it what it is to keep everything straight.

It looks like EIFS, so I will assume it is. Also that looks like faux stone and not real stone.

Based on the pictures, that wall will not drain properly. I take it that the RED line is marking the foundation on the home. So the foundation is covered with foam and a finish coat and it is buried in the ground.

It is all wrong.

The manufacturer of the EIFS will have details on how to join a dissimilar material like the stone veneer, it would be similar to a brick veneer. I would attempt to get those installation details to back up anything you say.

Hi Scott, the red line indicates where the EIFS aka synthetic stucco, ends, and the foundation wall begins. I tapped on wall and it was hollow sounding above the EIFS and solid sounding on the foundation. My concern is the missing drainage system which is typically visible by looking up at the siding. Since there's no offset, I can not verify its presence. I am concerned about trapped moisture that may migrate downward on to the sillplate etc.

Originally Posted by PETER W BENNETT

I tapped on wall and it was hollow sounding above the EIFS and solid sounding on the foundation.

That's where the drainage weep screeds (or whatever is used for EIFS) should be.

Since there's no offset, I can not verify its presence.

Since there is no offset, I suspect (I see very little EIFS, so I'm using logic for this) that what you *are* verifying is that there *is not* a drainage outlet, thus, there is 'likely not' a drainage plane behind the EIFS.

[quote[ I am concerned about trapped moisture that may migrate downward on to the sillplate etc.[/quote]

With no drainage plane, it might migrate down to the sill plate, however, if they actually did install the EIFS with a drainage plane, the moisture *will* migrate down to the sill plate, making bad news happen faster (which could be good or bad, depending on your point of view).

Also, if the foundation wall is thick enough to extend out to the surface of the EIFS without extra super duper thick stucco on it, I can see that causing water intrusion problems, and, if it is back where it should be and the stucco is extra super duper thick, then not only could you (will likely) have the same problem as if the foundation wall were that thick, but now the stucco is too thick to extend down into the earth.

Jerry, thanks for confirming my suspections. I have googled eifs for installation manuals to address these issues. I did not find any. If anyone has a link or other information, please let know. I wrote up my concerns but would like a typical/generic diagram that would show how to install a "generic" eifs product over the stone veneer and foundation.
Peter

EIMA - Home Inspection Professionals

http://www.mnlath-plaster.com/listin...esidConstr.pdf

http://www.eima.com/pdfs/Guide_to_EIFS.pdf

You would not except to see a drainage track in the location in the photo showing the EFIS meeting stone. You may see the track below the stone however. Not all EIFS drains it could be a barrier system which means it is supposed to stop the moisture before it get behind the EIFS. There is more to EIFS than can be discussed in the format. The red line if it indicates the EIFS and foundation line then it is installed correctly. EIFS burried in the soil creates wicking and a path for termites. You should only inspect EIFS by saying it's EIFS but if you do not know what to look for then you are asking for trouble by inspecting it and giving info one way or the other to your client.

Originally Posted by William Brady

Not all EIFS drains it could be a barrier system which means it is supposed to stop the moisture before it get behind the EIFS.

William,

First, welcome to THE HI discussion board.

I guess you missed this part in Peter's original post: "This NJ home was built in 2005 with EIFS and stone veneer. Effective November 3, 2003, the building code for residential construction in New Jersey, has been amended to ban the use of EIFS which does not include house-wrap and a secondary drainage mechanism."

If it is indeed a barrier system, then it is all wrong.

Which was, I think, Peter's point ... that it might be a barrier system, in which case, it is no longer allowed in NJ.

A side note: A second generation or newer EIFS system that has a moisture barrier and a drainage screed is still considered a barrier system. Its design is to not allow water to pass through as it does with brick, stucco or stone veneer walls. The moisture barrier is the added protection that the original systems did not have. They can and do have the same problems in regards to folks not installing it properly.

Regardless of what type of system it is, it is not installed properly. One large glaring thing that sticks out is this: Anytime dissimilar materials meet or join you must have an expansion or control joint. This would be along the foundation wall and at the stone veneer, I do not see that. All I see is a thin bead of silicone. Also along the windows and door frame, I doubt that you will find proper sealants. It is a crap installation that will plague anyone who owns it.

Originally Posted by William Brady

You would not except to see a drainage track in the location in the photo showing the EFIS meeting stone. You may see the track below the stone however.

Why not. Please explain.

The red line if it indicates the EIFS and foundation line then it is installed correctly.

Please explain where the drainage weeps would be, if not at the bottom of the drainage plane.

You should only inspect EIFS by saying it's EIFS but if you do not know what to look for then you are asking for trouble by inspecting it and giving info one way or the other to your client.

I believe we all agree there - so, educate us and tell us what you are looking for and why.

We can then compare that to what others here (who also know a lot about EIFS) say with regards to the installation in the photo and what you say about it.

Always willing to learn more ... especially from some one who knows more ... please explain - show/tell us what you know that we are missing.

Well Jerry I new that if I wrote something someone would be ready to write something sarcastic. I really don't want to participate in that kind of thing. In short I looked at the picture and it showed a good silicone joint between the EIFS and Stone. That is just what you would except to see if the EIFS was installed by a good applicator. In that area I would not except to see a drainage track at least not their. That was all I was saying. I have been reading some posts and I always see responses like yours and that is why I do not write often. Being from Florida I guess you know something about EIFS so I would not try to tell you anything. I know a little about it myself so lets just leave it at that.

Originally Posted by William Brady

Well Jerry I new that if I wrote something someone would be ready to write something sarcastic.

William,

If you read my first post in this thread, you noticed that I said "(I see very little EIFS, so I'm using logic for this)", thus, I was not being "sarcastic", I said "We can then compare that to what others here (who also know a lot about EIFS) say with regards to the installation in the photo and what you say about it.".

Not seeing much EIFS (as I stated), I learn from everyone else, and when other have differing opinions (which it seems like you do) it give me (and others) a chance to learn more.

"In short I looked at the picture and it showed a good silicone joint between the EIFS and Stone. That is just what you would except to see if the EIFS was installed by a good applicator. In that area I would not except to see a drainage track at least not their. That was all I was saying.[/quote]

Now you really have me confused.

If that is a drainage system, like it should be, then where will the water drain out, if not at the EIFS/stone joint?

You stated no drainage screed would be there, I asked "Why not. Please explain." You still have not explained it.

Now, if it was a barrier type of EIFS, then I can understand what you are saying and I would basically agree with it.

However, it is (*should be*) a drainage type EIFS, which means it is designed to drain down behind the EIFS at its inner drainage plane, and that water needs to drain out someplace.

Being from Florida I guess you know something about EIFS so I would not try to tell you anything.

Now who is being sarcastic, especially after I've already stated "(I see very little EIFS, so I'm using logic for this)".

I know a little about it myself ...

I known, that's what you said, which is why I asked you to explain.

Because I don't understand how a drainage system is supposed to drain with drainage weep screeds.

Just one more point about being a part of the problem. An uninformed inspection is as bad as an unqualified applicator. The applicators created the problem back in the 80s because they did not have the knowledge to install it correctly. Now here we are in 2007 the Dryvit settlement is over and HI's are inspecting EIFS and they do not know a lot about it. Sound's like the problem is starting all over again.

I have tried to post this message twice and both times I have lost the email. One more time and then I give up. Drainage EFIS. You need to look at many places to determine if it is or not. The attachment of the EPS panels, the mash, maybe you can see if the EPS is groved on the back. Buckets of stuff may be lets behind in the garage to see who the manufacturer is. This home is not that old and the builder can tell you who applied the stucco and for that matter the plans may be available to look at. If you are going to go out and inspect EFIS I think you might consider getting some training on the subject. At this point I don't think as HI we would look to an untrained person doing HI as a good thing for our industry. It's really is the same thing when it comes to EFIS inspections. It's not brain surgery however if you don't know then you don't know. I am not trying to be a wise guy here and I learn things about EIFS every time I do an EIFS inspection. I we are going to make statement in our HI report to clients then be careful about this subject. EFIS siding is expensive to tare off if your wrong. Remeber the Dryvit Settlement. We would not want it to become a Home Inspection one.

The EIFS is still installed wrong in that picture.

William,

I know Scott has been through training, and more, on EIFS, I am also sure that Scott will willing list his training and certifications, would be list yours, so maybe I (and others) can being to maybe understand why you and Scott at not on the same page?

Thanks.

I also know than *many* HIs have gone through training to inspect EIFS installations and their problems, so making an assumption statement that HIs need training is about bit much - many already have it. There are, however, many HIs who *have not* had training *YET* (I say *YET* as I hope it is on their list of things to do), so, to some degree, you would be correct.

Just not across the board as your statement implies.

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

The EIFS is still installed wrong in that picture.

Scott,

That's what 'my logic' tells me too (but I have not had any training in EIFS, so 'my logic' may not apply there - when I think of the unknowns, like EIFS, I apply the laws of gravity, the first law of gravity is *it wins - unless some other and stronger opposing force is continually applied to what gravity is working on*, centrifugal force can overcome gravity ... until the movement is stops, then gravity wins, and, with EIFS, centrifugal force is not a factor), maybe William will explain why he has a different opinion of it - "That is just what you would except to see if the EIFS was installed by a good applicator."

Anyway, always ready and willing to learn something new.

Listen Jerry I started of by saying that I do not want to get into one of these I got you things. I am glad that Scott or anyone has taken the time to get some training however I do not think it is a widespread as you think. At least not the training I took or I would see them on the web site. You can do your your homework as to my training I have my web site listed here all you need to do if your that interested is to go and look. As I said theses are pictures and your making assumptions about a picture you looked at. Now would you do a home inspection base on a photo. Maybe this is a forum for you to BS on and you have me buying right into it. Shame on me I guess for every putting something on here. It is good to read some of the post on this site but I see you and a few other on almost all of them making me wonder just how much time you and they spend at the computer. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your business.

Out of the over 700 EFIS clad homes that I have looked at over the past eight or so years, I can count on both hands the number of homes that did not have a problem. The problem is with the dang folks who install it. They do not read the directions. Then we have the builders who don't have a clue as how it is to be installed.

Now when it comes to commercial applications, for some reason better jobs are the norm.

Once a person learns what to look for on an EIFS home, the problems standout like a Red Flag. It is not rocket science.

I bet that in a four hour class, I could teach any willing home inspector what to look for on an EIFS clad home and on a Stucco clad home. They both require many of the same details when it comes to keeping the water out of the building. It really is easy to spot the problems, you don't even need a moisture meter to see if an item is installed wrong.

Originally Posted by William Brady

Listen Jerry I started of by saying that I do not want to get into one of these I got you things. I am glad that Scott or anyone has taken the time to get some training however I do not think it is a widespread as you think. At least not the training I took or I would see them on the web site. You can do your your homework as to my training I have my web site listed here all you need to do if your that interested is to go and look. As I said theses are pictures and your making assumptions about a picture you looked at. Now would you do a home inspection base on a photo. Maybe this is a forum for you to BS on and you have me buying right into it. Shame on me I guess for every putting something on here. It is good to read some of the post on this site but I see you and a few other on almost all of them making me wonder just how much time you and they spend at the computer. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your business.

Thick skin is required to be a home inspector and to post on most discussion boards. If you make a statement you need to be prepared for it to be challenged and to be able to defend you point or position on it. This is the life of a home inspector!

Don't go away, stay and learn from some of the best in the profession. I learn every day.

Originally Posted by William Brady

You can do your your homework as to my training I have my web site listed here all you need to do if your that interested is to go and look.

William,

It was not I who said "I know a little about it myself so lets just leave it at that." in a way which implied you knew a lot about EIFS. I came right out and said I don't see much and asked you to explain what you said (because it was not what the others have said regarding drainable EIFS).

As I said theses are pictures and your making assumptions about a picture you looked at. Now would you do a home inspection base on a photo.

But you did make a declaration based on that photo, you said it was okay as installed. That's why I wanted to know more - everything else I've read said the opposite.

Maybe this is a forum for you to BS on and you have me buying right into it. Shame on me I guess for every putting something on here.

No one here (on this thread) is BSing (unless you are), now, on some of the association threads, that's different - there's a LOT of BS going on there.

It is good to read some of the post on this site but I see you and a few other on almost all of them making me wonder just how much time you and they spend at the computer. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your business.

I'm retired from Home Inspections. Why does it matter that much to you how much I post here?

As Scott said " If you make a statement you need to be prepared for it to be challenged and to be able to defend you point or position on it. This is the life of a home inspector!", and, heck, I was not even "challenging you", I was merely trying to get you to explain why what you said was correct - - - which, by the way, you still have not done.

Hello Scott,

I agree that a visual inspection can be done on a home with some training beforehand however what if there is a moisture problem on the substrate??? It is my understanding that you can't identify moisture without using the proper meters and probing at the proper places. What if the joints are failing would the same guy be able to advise as to the proper type joint and silicone needed to correct this issue. This is from the guys that teach this stuff and from the company that issues warranty's on stucco homes. I do not want to go into great detail here however it would be good for us to talk all you need to do is look at my profile and my number is there on my web site. I am sure that we can cut to the chase easier and then post something we agree on. That might be helpful to other.

Bill Brady

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

The problem is with the dang folks who install it. They do not read the directions.

Maybe the problem is they CAN'T read the instructions. They are printed in English you know.

Originally Posted by William Brady

I am sure that we can cut to the chase easier and then post something we agree on. That might be helpful to other.

I'm also sure it would be helpful to all to read and learn through the exchange of ideas between two people who know what to do, rather than wait until it's been 'cut to the chase'.

I truly suspect that Scott has no resistance to open discussion here. Like I do, when I learn something new here, it's not an 'oh my gawd, I've been shown I'm wrong' thing, it's a 'hey, I learned something new' thing.

No one here should be afraid of making a statement, not being able to back it up, being corrected and proven wrong, then saying 'Yeppers, I was wrong' ... it makes for better understanding and learning by all involved - and - all who read the discussions. Partly because much of what is said is what people think (to themselves) and they end up knowing why that is indeed 'right', or 'wrong', and can change their thinking (if they want to) accordingly.

Originally Posted by William Brady

Hello Scott,

I agree that a visual inspection can be done on a home with some training beforehand however what if there is a moisture problem on the substrate??? It is my understanding that you can't identify moisture without using the proper meters and probing at the proper places.

I hate probes, but if needed I will use them. The probe only tells you at the tips of the probe that you have moisture. You could go 2" to the side and it could be dry and firm. I really like using a noninvasive meter from the drywall side. If I detect moisture on the drywall side, I can guarantee that you will have a problem when the wall is opened up. This is how I like to do an EIFS inspection for a buyer. Most sellers will not allow you to start probing below every window in three locations! For sellers I will make Swiss Cheese of their wall for as long as they want!

What if the joints are failing would the same guy be able to advise as to the proper type joint and silicone needed to correct this issue.

Well most likely not, but as a home inspector we do not have to tell how to repair things. Even as an EIFS Inspector, I no longer tell my clients what types of sealants should be used. I let the restoration contractors do that, heck I'm not going to be doing the repair work they will be doing it. I was only called to find the problems.

This is from the guys that teach this stuff and from the company that issues warranty's on stucco homes.

Yes, this is what EDI teaches but it does not make it 100% correct. They are teaching off the established protocols that came out of NC and GA. But many experienced inspectors have developed their own protocols that work even better.

As for the warranty. Look at the relationship of EDI and Moisture Free Warranty, not to mention the cozy E&O sell that they use to sell. You might have to go back 4-6 years in the EDI history. The Moisture Free Warranty is not all that it is cracked up to be, I can say this as I use to be one of their approved inspectors for this program.

OK sorry that I started all of this however I have been trained by the best in the industry (my opinion) some may disagree. As far a the exteranal meter they are not that raliable and if you trust them to tell you for certain then you are making a monumental error. As you know they pick up all kinds of things includinng metal like falshing, nails, EPS attachments etc. They are only good to tell you where moisture might be, probing gives the answers the two questions. Is it wet (how wet is it) and is it soft. EFIS leakage is predictable in certain areas of the home. My point about HI doing EIFS is this. Are they giving their client the impression that just by looking at the exterior all is well. You know we do not see behind walls in our HI's We make sure that our clients know that in advance correct????? Now EIFS is behind the wall, the main problems are their. The surface tells you something but a good inspector who knows what to do can identify, inspect, offer advice as to the proper way to go to get things fixed, provide literature about their EIFS, report professionally with photo's and reading's and after probing fill the holes so that no one every know it's been puncked. I don't want to be the one to say that what you do is not correct. All I know is that the problem is their and by following the proper protocals it can be remediated. I will say however that if you or anyone is suggesting that a visual ispection is all that's required then you may be wrong. I don't want another HI to think because they read this and the other posts that it is OK to go out and read some articles and do 4 hours of training they should then add EIFS inspections to their business. That I hope you would agree will continue the problem and not be a part of fixing the EIFS problem. I am referred all the time by wise HI who do their inspection and call out the EIFS and recommend it be inspected by a certified EIFS inspector. They are giving that part of the home to somone that knows the issues and is prepared to answer the hard questions. It's good for me in my business but it's really good for the buyer to get it looked at professionally before signing the contract. Home inspectors here in the northeast do this all the time for their clients.

Bill Brady

Originally Posted by William Brady

That I hope you would agree will continue the problem and not be a part of fixing the EIFS problem.

Bill,

Very good advice there.

If the HI does not know what they are doing, they should not be doing it. Period.

That also applies to all other aspects of looking at a home.

It if my *personal* opinion (and that of many others) that an EIFS "inspection" *is not* part of a normal home inspection.

Likewise, when I do consulting for stucco (*NOT* EIFS, stucco on frame and stucco on masonry), it goes w-a-y beyond what I looked at when I did home inspections.

Likewise, when I do code inspections for building, mechanical, plumbing, electrical, or, plan review for that matter, *it also* goes way beyond what I did as a home inspector.

All the above said, though, does not, SHOULD NOT, prohibit an HI from learning more about what they do not know, nor should it keep them from becoming knowledgeable and certified to do what they know and/or do best.

OK Jerry you are beginning to sound like a nice guy, you might want to be careful It sounds like we are getting to where we should be in this conversation. A little story might be useful. I did some competive research with a guy in this area who was saying things about being EIFS certified. I had to call because things just didn't sound right. I asked some questions and it became clear to me that he did not know the subject except some of the things everyone knows. How confusing for a client to try to get someone they can rely on only to get this type who sounded unsure of the simplest of questions from me. And believe me I asked simple questions. I was disturbed by this since I trained and learned this at a cost to me in many ways. here I was faced with someone who was going to misrepresent the industry. In my past working life great importance was place upon my fellow workers. I was and i am still looking for that situation in the Home Inspection industry. People are bright and seem to be trying to be the best they can be. In summing this up EIFS is a system that requires careful attention to detail. A short glimps into a situation can get you in trouble. Knowledge and many opinions are always a good thing. But the way in the middle of all of this I got a great call today to do an EIFS inspection on a 3600 sf home. Nice work if you can get it. You may have been lucky for me.

Bill Brady

Originally Posted by William Brady

OK Jerry you are beginning to sound like a nice guy, you might want to be careful

Now that we are buddy-buddy , could I trouble you to use the 'enter' key now and then so as to make your posts easier to read?

(Dang! I just blew it again. )

A little story might be useful. I did some competive research with a guy in this area who was saying things about being EIFS certified. I had to call because things just didn't sound right. I asked some questions and it became clear to me that he did not know the subject except some of the things everyone knows. How confusing for a client to try to get someone they can rely on only to get this type who sounded unsure of the simplest of questions from me. And believe me I asked simple questions.

Sounds like what happens when I talk with many 'certified mold' HIs. Heck, *I* am "certifiable", but that does not make me "certified" mold.

here I was faced with someone who was going to misrepresent the industry.

You sure you are not talking about those 'Mold is Gold" HIs?

In my past working life great importance was place upon my fellow workers. I was and i am still looking for that situation in the Home Inspection industry.

When I was in South Florida doing home inspections, There were about 20-30 of us out of about 500 (that's right, if you counted up who was advertising home inspections) who 'were capable' and cared to some degree, and about 5-10 who were 'good' and cared about what they did. You have to seek the others out.

In summing this up EIFS is a system that requires careful attention to detail.

So true, especially during the installation of it.

You may have been lucky for me.

Very good, now maybe you will be lucky for me. (Oh-oh, he thinks.)

Please explain "why" you say that installation in the photo, which *is supposed to be a drainable EIFS system*, is correctly installed with no drainage weeps below the EIFS at the foundation wall line, and why it is correct with no weeps below the EIFS at the adhered stone joint.

I really would like to learn more about the different types of EIFS systems. I am aware of two types: 1) the first system, which was a barrier system, 2) the new and improved system which is a drainage system and is referred to a 'drainable EIFS system'.

A drainable EIFS system is required to allow drainage at the bottom of the drainage plane, is it not?

Well from what i see or what i can't see there may be drainage below how do I know from the photo. In the area shown it looks like the design that was given in the plan again how would I know. At the junction or dissimilar sidings it needs to be sealed propery and accoring to the manufactures details. Again I would suppect the installation is correct at least it looks sealed properly and it also looks like a good joint and the sealant look good to me. Remember, the drainage plain can extend down past the EIFS and down behind the stone and it may drain below the stone. Again you would have to be their. Lets say the system was being looked at by a certified EIFS inspector I am sure that this question would not have been asked. Our HI was looking at something that he was not sure of in the first place> I would have been looking at numerous areas of this house looking for the facts. If it is a drainage system then you will see signs of it around the home.
You also need to look behind the system and the lights (they need to be remove to see inside the wall) with a mirror looking up and behind the system. You would be looking to see if it is backwrapped or not. Jerry there are so many things I am getting tried thinking about it. I have an idea since you are retired why not look into some EIFS training being offered in November. You sound like someone who would love the challange. It's technical and passing requires 90% passing mark. If I can do it so can you. I don't want to give away all of my hard earned secrets to everyone on this site.

One more thing before I close for the evening as for control joints they are required every 144 sf and expasion joints are required at the floor above the rim and the second floor. I would have to look but I am not sure they are required in the area shown in the photo. I am be wrong so I will check my book for that. There is another point to consider. Getting certified by someone like EDI you have access to people who have been in the business a long time. Since there are not to many of us it is a close relationship between EIFS inspectors around the country. Many attend the trainings on a regular basis and the core of the organization has a long and varied backround in EFIS. They are engineers and PHD in chemistry leading EFIS contractors, inspectors and applicator from all over. SOme may not be as thrilled with EDI for whatever reason but if one keep an open mind you may just find people that know whats going on.

Bill Brady

I forgot a drainage system is one that permits moisture to excape from the EIFS by use of a WRB (weather resistant barrier) Tyvet ect possible also groved EPS and the use of a track at the botton of the EFIS.

Bill Brady

EDI does offer good training, many, many home inspector have been through it. I attended EDI training in 1998 and several more refresher sessions over the years. It is good education. As for the certification, as long as you pay the yearly dues you are certified.

Sorry to be a johnny come lately, but I'm on a roll here, so here goes...

Bill -The picture you posted show a system that is not properly installed if it does not terminate above the soil with a weep screed or drainage track. Clearly the first pic shows no such termination.

The second pic with the stone veneer may have been installed with the drainage plane intended to go down the wall behind the stone. Unfortunately, the installer of the stone did not incorporate a weep screed-if that was the original design, and instead took the stone down below grade. effectively sealing the wall, and any inadvertent moisture inside, where rot will surely occur.

So it may not be the EIFS that is at fault on that assembly, tho I am being generous on that point. Out here, stone veneer is often installed by two different trades, or subcontractors, and coordination between the two rarely occurs...

There are so many issues with taking stucco below grade, and many have been posted above, so I will just say it's a really, really bad idea.