fancy type of door, and doesn't require or even allow flashing

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 01:01 PM

Reported item:
The door and frame have been replaced. (1) Flashing at the top of the door is missing. (2) Trim at the sides of the door are not caulked. Without flashing and caulk water can enter behind the door frame and cause damage to wood components. Recommend contractor install flashing and caulk.

Sellers response:
All items to be completed except the first item…” Apparently, the new door that we bought and installed is a fancy type of door, and doesn't require or even allow flashing (even though that is common with other exterior doors). It's a special designed brick molding for the door so that the door slides into the slot and you don't use flashing. “

Really? Has anyone seen this type of door that needs no flashing or caulk? It is a wood frame and brick mold.

Similar Threads:

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

Has anyone seen this type of door that needs no flashing or caulk? It is a wood frame and brick mold.

Depends on what you are referring to as the "door" and where you are saying the flashing was not installed.

If you are referring to the "door", no flashing goes at the top of the "door", however, if you are referring to the assembly consisting of the door and the transom light above it, and you are saying that the flashing is missing from above the transom light, i.e., above the "assembled unit", then you are correct, the flashing is missing above the "door assembly" which includes the transom light.

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Depends on what you are referring to as the "door" and where you are saying the flashing was not installed.

If you are referring to the "door", no flashing goes at the top of the "door", however, if you are referring to the assembly consisting of the door and the transom light above it, and you are saying that the flashing is missing from above the transom light, i.e., above the "assembled unit", then you are correct, the flashing is missing above the "door assembly" which includes the transom light.

You are correct; door assembly. My report has pictures, with arrows, to compensate for the semantically deficient

. I told client to request a copy of the installation instructions showing, "doesn't require or even allow".

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I told client to request a copy of the installation instructions showing, "doesn't require or even allow".

You would say that the brick molding is "projecting" out past the siding? (I would from the photos, just making sure we are on the same "page".

)

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You would say that the brick molding is "projecting" out past the siding? (I would from the photos, just making sure we are on the same "page".

)

I would say the brick molding is correctly installed, just not correctly caulked or flashed.

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

I would say the brick molding is correctly installed, just not correctly caulked or flashed.

But is the brick molding "projecting" out past the surface of the siding as looks to be? There is a specific reason I am asking.

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

But is the brick molding "projecting" out past the surface of the siding as looks to be? There is a specific reason I am asking.

The brick molding has been shaped on the outside edge, creating a flange. The siding is behind and against the flange. Maybe this is the "fancy" part?

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

The brick molding has been shaped on the outside edge, creating a flange. The siding is behind and against the flange. Maybe this is the "fancy" part?

Vern,

Is there some reason you are not typing the word "projecting" and instead state "The siding is behind and against the flange."?

To me, that means that the brick molding is, as is shown in the photo, "projecting" beyond the siding ("The siding is behind ...").

"Projecting" is really an easy word to say ... pro-ject-ing ... and type p-r-o-j-e-c-t-i-n-g ... try it, it really is easy ...

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 05:53 PM

My interpretation of your question was, does the entire brick mold "project" past the siding. The answer is, the flange part of the brick mold "projects" past the siding but not the entire brick mold.

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

My interpretation of your question was, does the entire brick mold "project" past the siding. The answer is, the flange part of the brick mold "projects" past the siding but not the entire brick mold.

My question was:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

You would say that the brick molding is "projecting" out past the siding?

Meaning: is the brick molding projecting (as in any part of it) out past the siding, but ... I'll accept your interpretation as me not having stated my question clearly enough, so ...

We both agree that the brick molding projects (as in any part of it) out past the siding ... right?

Based on that, then that brick molding needs this:
- From the IRC: (bold and underlining are mine)
- SECTION R703

- - EXTERIOR COVERING

- - - R703.1 General.

Exterior walls shall provide the building with a weather-resistant exterior wall envelope. The exterior wall envelope shall include flashing as described in Section R703.8. The exterior wall envelope shall be designed and constructed in a manner that prevents the accumulation of water within the wall assembly by providing a water-resistant barrier behind the exterior veneer as required by Section R703.2. and a means of draining water that enters the assembly to the exterior. Protection against condensation in the exterior wall assembly shall be provided in accordance with Chapter 11 of this code.
- - - - Exceptions:
- - - - - (there are multiple exceptions, none of which apply to our discussion)

- - R703.8 Flashing. Approved corrosion-resistant flashing shall be applied shingle-fashion in such a manner to prevent entry of water into the wall cavity or penetration of water to the building structural framing components. The flashing shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish. Approved corrosion-resistant flashings shall be installed at all of the following locations:
- - - 1. Exterior window and door openings. Flashing at exterior window and door openings shall extend to the surface of the exterior wall finish or to the water-resistive barrier for subsequent drainage.

- - - 2. At the intersection of chimneys or other masonry construction with frame or stucco walls, with projecting lips on both sides under stucco copings.
- - - 3. Under and at the ends of masonry, wood or metal copings and sills.
- - - 4. Continuously above all projecting wood trim.
- - - 5. Where exterior porches, decks or stairs attach to a wall or floor assembly of wood-frame construction.
- - - 6. At wall and roof intersections.

- - - 7. At built-in gutters.

Thus, regardless of whether the manufacturer of the door assembly or their installation instructions call out for that flashing along the top of the door assembly ... the code requires it, and the most restrictive shall apply.

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 06:28 PM

NCHILB discourages us from quoting code, as this is not a code inspection. We have arrived at the same conclusion using common sense and the written code. I appreciate you having taken the time to interpret the code side, and may have to use it to backup the common sense observation. I doubt that a copy of the installation instructions will state that no flashing is required or allowed, but then I keep thinking I've seen everything

.

Thanks

**Jerry Peck** · 10-04-2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

NCHILB discourages us from quoting code, as this is not a code inspection. We have arrived at the same conclusion using common sense and the written code.

Vern,

Just tell them that HardiePlank siding is not weather tight in and off itself - just read the installation instructions and they will see that a water-resistive-barrier (WRB) is required behind it, and, as such, that means that water is expected to get behind the siding, and that the water will, by the laws of nature, flow down by gravity, and that gravity will pull that water down behind the siding and behind the brick molding along the top of the transom light over the door, and that when gravity pulls that water down, some of it will likely go inside and some of it may likely go outside, so there is nothing to worry about because not *all* of the water will leak inside, only some will.

**Vern Heiler** · 10-04-2011, 06:51 PM

Actually cedar shingle, but I get the point.

Thanks again

**wayne soper** · 10-04-2011, 07:15 PM

I would have asked her if the window was special too.

and after she said yes, i would tell her to fix the door,assembly, projection, and every other part of the home that the repairing contractor deems suitable to repair, and that she deems SPECIAL

I am sure she would ( will) have a few SPECIAL words for you.

**James Harlow** · 10-04-2011, 08:34 PM

Vern,
I think you may be looking at a type of PVC brick molding with an intragal J-channel for siding. The door jamb may be cladded or PVC as well, but I cannot tell from the photos. The following is a profile from Gossen Corp that I have seen on PVC molding charts in our area. They also have door and transom jamb profiles available in the PVC material as well. I imagine that a door supplier in your area has started using this type of material on Pre-hung exterior units as an optional upgrade to primed wood frames. Endura Products, a major supplier of door frame parts and sills to door hanging companies, has a variety of pvc profiles as well. If the brickmold has the flange on the back then it should have been taped like a new construction vinyl window that has the nailing flange and very likely would not be caulked to siding in the conventional manner.
Jim