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  1. #1

    Default Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I looked in the IRC and the Garage section (309.1) is really short. I thought there was a section that mentioned that the door from the garage to the living space needed a closer... Others have said that is a state/county rule that is not in IRC...

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Not in the IRC. Local rule. Calif and NE seem to two places that peopler respond they are required.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sisson View Post
    I looked in the IRC and the Garage section (309.1) is really short. I thought there was a section that mentioned that the door from the garage to the living space needed a closer... Others have said that is a state/county rule that is not in IRC...
    Look to the localities version of R302, Building Planning.

    It depends on what standard the plans specified for the garage-to-living space separation. Example if the planner specifies a specific assembly and rating which may well exceed minimum prescribed by the unammended IRC.

    However, the requirement has been incorporated into the unammended 2012 IRC. It is often added as an ammendment by counties, cities, and various states using earlier editions. (Presuming you are referencing a single family detached home with an attached garage, with all exterior walls greater than 2 feet from property lines).

    IIRC correctly, quite a few counties have automony, as do several cities in MD regarding code adoptions.

    In, for example, the 2009 IRC you will often find as an ammendment to R302.5.1. ; which unammended reads thusly:

    R302.5.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

    However, in the 2012 edition, the unammended IRC R302.5.1 now expressly requires, as it reads thusly:

    R302.5.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb-core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors, equipped with a self-closing device.

    HTH.

    P.S. I usually "think" of an egress door (exit) as a "man door" when it comes to same referencing a garage, detached or attached, not necessarily a door which communicates to the garage from the living space. If the exit path is not "legitimate" an attached garage may still require a man door/egress door to the exterior, especially if there are facilities, appliances installed within.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-23-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Thanks to all that replied. It turns out it -IS- a local amendment, at least until 2012.

    It was also interesting that the citation was not in Garages (309) but in building Planning (302) which made it harder to not find. I say not find as I was looking in the Raw 2009 IRC that didn't have any amendments so I wouldn't have found it anyway...

    Oh well, I will still make a fuss when I find Garage Man-Doors into the kitchen without closers or closers that aren't working, I will just have to push it as a "Common Sense safety idea" rather than a rule.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Sisson View Post
    Thanks to all that replied. It turns out it -IS- a local amendment, at least until 2012.

    It was also interesting that the citation was not in Garages (309) but in building Planning (302) which made it harder to not find. I say not find as I was looking in the Raw 2009 IRC that didn't have any amendments so I wouldn't have found it anyway...

    Oh well, I will still make a fuss when I find Garage Man-Doors into the kitchen without closers or closers that aren't working, I will just have to push it as a "Common Sense safety idea" rather than a rule.
    Depending on the footprint, floor & elevation plan of said "kitchen" this may in and of itself be a compromised "egress" and/or "exit path", as implied by the wording of your summarization the "door" location may be further compromized with or without a closer if there is no "man-door" egress, exit pathway to the exterior.

    Additional sections in Ch. 3 address the requirements for same, even in prior editions.

    Zoning and classification of the garage space attached to SF home, occupancy classification.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Depending on the footprint, floor & elevation plan of said "kitchen" this may in and of itself be a compromised "egress" and/or "exit path",
    Would please explain and expound on what requirements there are which would make a kitchen with a door into the garage an egress problem?

    Let's say the kitchen is a straight galley kitchen, open to the living area at one end and with the door to the garage at the other end.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I am not a code person...but I don't think of a Door from the kitchen area into the garage as an "Egress" door for a number of reasons...

    There may not be a EXTERIOR Man-door that is accessible and usable. Most I see have too much stuff in front of them to be usable

    A path from the interior Man-Door to ANY Exterior Garage door may be blocked. Most garages I see are very tight with two cars and the stuff/junk in them.

    If there is no exterior Man-Door the garage door may not be fast-enought opening, or even have power during an "event"

    I am mostly concerned about a fire that STARTS in the Garage being contained long enough for everyone to get out via other paths.

    From what I read, the most common sources of fires in homes are: Garage, Kitchen and Laundry... A 20min assembly between the garage and the rest of the house only works if the door is closed (and latched). I cringe when I see screen doors on the Man-door to the kitchen, door stops (the fold down kind screwed into the door) and other methods for keeping the door open.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Would please explain and expound on what requirements there are which would make a kitchen with a door into the garage an egress problem?

    Let's say the kitchen is a straight galley kitchen, open to the living area at one end and with the door to the garage at the other end.
    Here you have twisted what I have posted about on two responses to this discussion, not the converse, and of course distorted it and left out an important referenced details, i.e. that there being no other "man door" to/from the attached garage having a "legitimate" exit path/egress (and made mention of system facilities, mechanicals, appliances installed!

    IF there were to be for example a furnace, a main electrical panel, a water heater, etc. in the garage - your galley kitchen example would be of issue, IF there were no other "legitimate" primary egress "man door" at the attached garage. Generally, O/H doors require more than 5 ft. lbs of force to open and oftentimes require "special knowledge".

    The situation I already referenced indicated is an attached garage with systems facilities or appliances installed within, and which has no exit or egress door "man door" communicating with a legitimate exit path, and is Bob S. indicated the only existing "man door" communicates directly to the Kitchen. As I further indicated it depends on the foot print/floor plan of the so-called "kitchen", as with common hallways, open floor plans, etc. what may be loosely referred to as "kitchen" may not be a restricted exit pathway.

    Example: Main Power Panel for the residence located in the attached garage. No "man door" from the garage except one that communicates directly to and only to "the kitchen" which must be first navigated through to exit door. To work upon same there must be "egress" from the garage. The exit pathway must not be via a kitchen, and the overhead door may not be considered egress. That situation would require relocating the "exit", adding an appropriate "man door" or re-organizing the floor plan/elevation plan/foot print of "the kitchen".

    It is a mistake flippers and DIYers often make when remodelling kitchen floor plans without permit review, etc. in homes with attached garages that were at first compliant regarding exit path but are no longer after having knocked out hallway walls, moving cabinets, appliances, "opening up or altering the floor plan" projections, adding an island, breakfast "bar", relocating laundry facilities, other appliances, mechanicals, installing or relocating an electrical panel to the inside of the attached garage, etc.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Here you have twisted what I have posted about on two responses to this discussion, not the converse, and of course distorted it and left out an important referenced details, i.e. that there being no other "man door" to/from the attached garage having a "legitimate" exit path/egress (and made mention of system facilities, mechanicals, appliances installed!
    To the contrary, Watson, I have not twisted any wording, I have quoted you and asked a question, which, as usual, you have not answered.

    IF there were to be for example a furnace, a main electrical panel, a water heater, etc. in the garage - your galley kitchen example would be of issue, IF there were no other "legitimate" primary egress "man door" at the attached garage. Generally, O/H doors require more than 5 ft. lbs of force to open and oftentimes require "special knowledge".
    Again, please explain and show the requirement to which you speak.

    Whether or not there is a "for example a furnace, a main electrical panel, a water heater, etc. in the garage", please show in the code where such a "man door" is required.

    One is not allowed to have a required egress through a private attached garage, and, as such, there is no required egress "man door" from the garage.

    One could have the straight galley kitchen, open to the living area on one end, with a door between the garage and the kitchen on the other end, whether or not there is "for example a furnace, a main electrical panel, a water heater, etc. in the garage", and no "man door" is required in the garage.

    Please provide code supporting your statements that such a "man door" would be required.

    The situation I already referenced indicated is an attached garage with systems facilities or appliances installed within, and which has no exit or egress door "man door" communicating with a legitimate exit path, and is Bob S. indicated the only existing "man door" communicates directly to the Kitchen. As I further indicated it depends on the foot print/floor plan of the so-called "kitchen", as with common hallways, open floor plans, etc. what may be loosely referred to as "kitchen" may not be a restricted exit pathway.
    Again, provide supporting code references for your statements.

    Example: Main Power Panel for the residence located in the attached garage. No "man door" from the garage except one that communicates directly to and only to "the kitchen" which must be first navigated through to exit door. To work upon same there must be "egress" from the garage. The exit pathway must not be via a kitchen, and the overhead door may not be considered egress. That situation would require relocating the "exit", adding an appropriate "man door" or re-organizing the floor plan/elevation plan/foot print of "the kitchen".
    Again, provide supporting code references for your statements.


    [qoute]It is a mistake flippers and DIYers often make when remodelling kitchen floor plans without permit review, etc. in homes with attached garages that were at first compliant regarding exit path but are no longer after having knocked out hallway walls, moving cabinets, appliances, "opening up or altering the floor plan" projections, adding an island, breakfast "bar", relocating laundry facilities, other appliances, mechanicals, installing or relocating an electrical panel to the inside of the attached garage, etc.[/QUOTE]

    Again, provide supporting code references for your statements.

    Watson, you often make statement but do not provide supporting documentation, as has been shown many times here. Is this to be another one of those times or are you going to provide that supporting documentation?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Sigh.

    Although a means of egress is prescribed by the IRC it is not defined, nor are the host of applicable terms which are used in this area.

    This is why, we are directed to the Other International Codes back in Chapter 2.

    See Definitions in the IBC, which is WHERE they are defined, including just what the "exit" is, which will refer you to the HOST of definitions at 1002.1 which such are applicable to the entire IBC, and when not defined in the IRC differently, are also applicable to the IRC.

    This has often been a difficult thing for you to both grasp and retain.

    The TERMS are sprinkled throughout the IRC, including fire resistant construction, areas requiring flame spread index values, smoke index values, etc.

    IRC 2009:
    Chapter 2 - Definitions
    SECTION R201 GENERAL
    R201.3 Terms defined in other codes
    R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

    You will find these terms listed at Chapter 2 in the IBC, which refers you to Section 1002.1 for their definitions, 1002.1 is a list of terms and their definitions.

    These terms are NOT defined in the IRC, they are USED, and they are PRESCRIBED.

    IBC 2009
    DEFINITIONS:
    EXIT. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ACCESS. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ACCESS DOORWAY. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT DISCHARGE, LEVEL OF. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ENCLOSURE. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT, HORIZONTAL. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT PASSAGEWAY. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    MEANS OF EGRESS. SEE SECTION 1002.1

    COMMON PATH OF EGRESS TRAVEL. That portion of exit access which the occupants are required to traverse before two separate and distinct paths of egress travel to two exits are available. Paths that merge are common paths of travel. Common paths of egress travel shall be included within the permitted travel distance.

    CORRIDOR. An enclosed exit access component that defines and provides a path of egress travel to an exit.

    EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system which is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives as required to provide a protected path of egress travel between the exit access and the exit discharge. Exits include exterior exit doors at the level of exit discharge, vertical exit enclosures, exit passageways, exterior exit stairways, exterior exit ramps and horizontal exits.

    EXIT ACCESS. That portion of a means of egress system that leads from any occupied portion of a building or structure to an exit.

    EXIT ACCESS DOORWAY. A door or access point along the path of egress travel from an occupied room, area or space where the path of egress enters an intervening room, corridor, unenclosed exit access stair or unenclosed exit access ramp.

    EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.

    EXIT DISCHARGE, LEVEL OF. The story at the point at which an exit terminates and an exit discharge begins.

    EXIT ENCLOSURE. An exit component that is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives, and provides for a protected path of egress travel in a vertical or horizontal direction to the exit discharge or the public way.

    EXIT, HORIZONTAL. A path of egress travel from one building to an area in another building on approximately the same level, or a path of egress travel through or around a wall or partition to an area on approximately the same level in the same building, which affords safety from fire and smoke from the area of incidence and areas communicating therewith.

    EXIT PASSAGEWAY. An exit component that is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives, and provides for a protected path of egress travel in a horizontal direction to the exit discharge or the public way.


    MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.



    Again IRC R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.


    Further the flame spread index (200 or less) and the smoke index (450 or less) aren't even minimally maintained in a finished "galley" kitchen. "coatings" in excess of what is it 1/32 inch are applied to what is required to be fire resistant construction for "the exit" which is NOT the exit discharge - and an essential portion of the IRC prescribed "Means of Egress", which is also defined, (only prescribed in the IRC) IN THE IBC.


    Next you'll tell me the prescribed minimum separations, surface materials, blocking, stoping, and prescribed door between the garage are not fire resistant construction and that Section 302 is not entitled "Fire Resistant Construction", prescribed fire partition, meeting specifications detailed in IBC Table 720.1(2)

    720.1 General. The provisions of this section contain prescriptive details of fire-resistance-rated building elements, components or assemblies. The materials of construction listed in Tables 720.1(1), 720.1(2), and 720.1(3) shall be assumed to have the fire-resistance ratings prescribed therein.]

    or will you say that "Means of Egress" only applies to the "dwelling unit" portion of the building comprising the single family home with attached garage ("dwelling".)!

    The minimum prescriptions for wall covering, ceiling covering, and "separation wall" floor-ceiling assemblies, stopping, blocking, penetrations, and other construction prescriptions in the IRC with prescribed doors etc. DO constitute fire-resistance-rated consruction building elements as defined. ascribed and prescribed by the international code council codes.


    Fire partitions and prescriptives for corridors and "dwelling unit" separations, and "dwelling unit" to attached garage separations (partitions, penetrations, wall coverings, ceiling, etc.) may not be "fire walls" but they are (as prescribed by the IRC in its entirety of such prescriptives as a whole), are in fact defined, ascribed and prescribed "fire-resistance-rated" construction, including "fire partitions", "fire resistance", "fire-resistant-rated", "corridors", "exit", "exit pathway" "means of egress", etc. as defined and prescribed in the IBC, which, (egad!) is an "other International Code" referenced back in Chapter 2 of the International Residential Code, where the IRC doesn't "define" the TERMS used in same.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-25-2011 at 02:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Watson,

    I must say you have outdone yourself this time ... you are so far off that you must be reporting from the moon as you certainly are not here on Planet Earth with the rest of us.

    From the 2012 IRC - by the way THIS is what applies to the discussion at hand, not all that babble you posted:
    - SECTION R311 MEANS OF EGRESS
    - - R311.1 Means of egress.
    - - - All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.
    - - - R311.2 Egress door.
    - - - - At least one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a minimum clear width of 32 inches (813 mm) when measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The minimum clear height of the door opening shall not be less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

    Watson, the single family house is ONE dwelling unit and therefore requires ONE egress door, and that ONE egress door is, almost without fail, the main entry door as that door is (with very rare exception) a side-hinged door with a minimum clear width of 32 inches.

    Looking up non-applicable definintions in the IBC is, well ... non-applicable. If you want to look up definitions, look up "minimum clear width" or something else which may be applicable.

    This is why a side-hinged front main entry door and a sliding glass rear door meet the IRC - only one side-hinged door is required.

    Oh, by the way, the section above does say "without requiring travel through a garage", so there is absolutely no need for that door into the garage as the garage is not part of that "dwelling unit", it is, after all, an "attached garage" which is its own occupancy, which is not a "dwelling unit".

    Try again, sir, but this time make your efforts applicable to the discussion at hand.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    What is it with you two? Do simple questions always have to turn into a pissing match?

    I don't know about the others, but quoting code adnausem is not helping any of us other then your abilities to try and out do one another.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    What is it with you two? Do simple questions always have to turn into a pissing match?

    I don't know about the others, but quoting code adnausem is not helping any of us other then your abilities to try and out do one another.
    Got it Raymond, you would rather go away thinking that Watson's erroneous information was correct - next time he replies with incorrect information to you I will try to remember you would rather let that stand. You may need to remind me of that now and then as I tend to try to correct erroneous and misleading information ... but if that is what you want, so be it.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    What is it with you two? Do simple questions always have to turn into a pissing match?

    I don't know about the others, but quoting code adnausem is not helping any of us other then your abilities to try and out do one another.
    Ray,

    It does give you an understanding into reading and understanding the code(s). As you can see by the discussion, they can be misinterpreted and misunderstood---especially if you skim over them and don't take the time to actually read them. I find the banter informative and have learned some good information about questionable issues. Loosen up... .


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Hi, The closer is not only required for safe egress but is required to stop CO from entering the living space should be garage door into the home when the car in the garage is running. Example, one starts the car and hears the house phone and rushes in to answer the phone inside the home. Door remains partially open and rush of air brings CO from car exhaust into the home.

    Just another thought for consideration.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Marchi View Post
    Hi, The closer is not only required for safe egress but is required ...
    Please cite your reference that a closer is required.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    If you are performing code specific inspections and are forced to site such, so be it. As Inspectors, we are never immune from raising safety concerns or recommending appropriate improvements for the safety of not only our clients, but the general public. Take the transactional portion out of the equation and run through the worst case scenario. Set the expectation with your Client that not everything you tell them or report must be followed to the letter of 'your' law. It just may happen to be in their or their family's best interest.

    Explain it to your Clients like they were young children.

    Throw the selling Realtor in the pool after dramatic retort

    Repeat.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Got it Raymond, you would rather go away thinking that Watson's erroneous information was correct - next time he replies with incorrect information to you I will try to remember you would rather let that stand. You may need to remind me of that now and then as I tend to try to correct erroneous and misleading information ... but if that is what you want, so be it.
    Got to say... JP is dead on! All of HG's post is so far off base that even I went WHAT??????

    The door in the garage has nothing to do with egress from the residence. It is conveniant but definitely not what HG pulled out of left field!


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    Got to say... JP is dead on! All of HG's post is so far off base that even I went WHAT??????

    The door in the garage has nothing to do with egress from the residence. It is conveniant but definitely not what HG pulled out of left field!
    As usual you can't follow a conversation!

    I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A MEANS OF EGRESS FROM THE RESIDENCE!!!

    THE ATTACHED GARAGE IS OCCUPIED. The CIRCUMSTANCE referenced is IF there are Mechanicals, appliances, and/or panels, etc. installed IN the garage, serving the DWELLING UNIT.

    IN THAT CASE: A MEANS OF EGRESS MUST EXIST FROM THE GARAGE!

    A means of egress can NOT be VIA a KITCHEN, especially a GALLEY kitchen as described by PECK.

    A "Kitchen" (literal kitchen area) can not serve as a means of egress pathway.

    EVEN THE GARAGE (if attached - hence PART OF THE SAME BUILDING) may not have a means of egress VIA "the" (AS PECK PROPOSED GALLEY KITCHEN, galley - which is NOT a "corridor".

    Takin out the big colored fonts for the childish skimmers:

    A MEANS OF EGRESS is required for ALL occupied areas of the BUILDING INCLUDING the GARAGE - Overhead doors do not count.

    THIS WAS THE POINT: A Means of Egress FROM the GARAGE OCCUPANCY (if other than simply car storage present, i.e. WH, furnace, appliances, electrical panel, etc.) - NOT DISCUSSING a Means of Egress or exit FROM the DWELLING!!!

    NO ONE but Peck and now Carlisle have twisted it to having anything to do with a means of egress from the DWELLING - THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING I POSTED.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Takin out the big colored fonts for the childish skimmers:

    A MEANS OF EGRESS is required for ALL occupied areas of the BUILDING INCLUDING the GARAGE - Overhead doors do not count.

    THIS WAS THE POINT: A Means of Egress FROM the GARAGE OCCUPANCY (if other than simply car storage present, i.e. WH, furnace, appliances, electrical panel, etc.) - NOT DISCUSSING a Means of Egress or exit FROM the DWELLING!!!
    Watson,

    Yelling in big bold red font is not becoming on you, lavender is more your color.

    As is normal for you, you are still all screwed up about it: The GARAGE occupancy *does not* require any other means of egress other than the overhead vehicle door ... WHETHER OR NOT there is an electrical panel, a water heater, or HVAC equipment in the garage.

    I believe I have already posted this, but I will post it AGAIN for you: I will give you your desired highlighting in underling, bold, and large text, but in lavender as that is more becoming for you.
    - R311.4 Doors.
    - - R311.4.1 Exit door required. Not less than one exit door conforming to this section shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The required exit door shall provide for direct access from the habitable portions of the dwelling to the exterior without requiring travel through a garage. Access to habitable levels not having an exit in accordance with this section shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.6 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.5.

    Note that the code says "DWELLING UNIT", the code does not say "GARAGE", nor does the code say any "occupied areas" ... concentrate, Watson, concentrate - the code only requires that egress from "each DWELLING UNIT" ... *NOT* from 'each garage'.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I know how Watson tries to make things fit his own thinking, so, in all fairness to Watson, here is the definition of what Watson does not seem to understand ... what a "dwelling unit" is.

    (bold and underlining is mine)
    - DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

    So ... if the garage had "permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation", then the garage would be required to have a "man door" ... of course, though, then it would no longer be considered a "garage".

    To assess, with certainty, that the garage would no longer be considered a "garage", let's look at the definitions in the IBC (I have frequently pointed out, as Watson did above, that if a word is not defined in the IRC, the next first place to look is in the IBC and the other ICC codes). The term "garage" is not defined in either the IRC or the IBC, so the next step is to go to Use and Occupancy Classification in the IBC to find what a "garage" is classified as regards to occupancy.

    The closest occupancy classification is Group S-2 Low-hazard storage:
    - 311.3 Low-hazard storage, Group S-2.
    - - Includes, among others, buildings used for the storage of noncombustible materials such as products on wood pallets or in paper cartons with or without single thickness divisions; or in paper wrappings. Such products are permitted to have a negligible amount of plastic trim, such as knobs, handles or film wrapping. Group S-2 storage uses shall include, but not be limited to, storage of the following:
    ...
    Parking garages, open or enclosed
    ...

    A "garage", then, is not a "dwelling unit" and the IRC states that the hinged egress door is required for "each dwelling unit", which does not include a "garage".

    Let's say you have a prefabricated storage shed placed in the rear yard, most or at least many, come with sliding doors for access to all larger equipment, such as riding lawn tractors, to be brought in and out - but there is no "man door" in them. They are available with a "man door" only, but it is not a requirement. It is an "accessory structure" and is not a "dwelling unit".
    - ACCESSORY STRUCTURE. A structure not greater than 3,000 square feet (279 m2) in floor area, and not over two stories in height, the use of which is customarily accessory to and incidental to that of the dwelling(s) and which is located on the same lot.

    The 2010 IRC has slightly different wording in the Means of Egress and where it is required, instead of the familiar "dwelling unit" the 2012 IRC says "dwelling", as in:
    - R311.1 Means of egress.
    All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.

    So, let's see what a "dwelling" is in the 2012 IRC:
    - DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.

    The 2012 IRC, at 311.2 Egress Door, still says dwelling unit:
    - R311.2 Egress door.
    - - At least one egress door shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The egress door shall be side-hinged, and shall provide a minimum clear width of 32 inches (813 mm) when measured between the face of the door and the stop, with the door open 90 degrees (1.57 rad). The minimum clear height of the door opening shall not be less than 78 inches (1981 mm) in height measured from the top of the threshold to the bottom of the stop. Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions. Egress doors shall be readily openable from inside the dwelling without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

    So, let's see what the 2012 IRC defines as a "dwelling unit":
    - DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

    We are back where we started - a "garage" *is not* a "dwelling unit" nor is a "garage" a "dwelling".

    Just trying to cover all the options and directions Watson might try to take us off on.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    An attached garage to a single family home is a part of THE Building.

    If the attached garage serves a purpose other than mere storage (of vehicles or whatever) It is OCCUPIED. It (the attached garage serving other than mere vehicle storage and related storage) requires a means of egress.An OH garage door is not an acceptable means of egress FROM the garage.A detached garage is an accessory building.

    A single family home with attached garage/building doesn't have a "dwelling unit" it is a dwelling, it is one building.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    An attached garage to a single family home is a part of THE Building.
    It is part of THE Building, but it is NOT part of THE DWELLING UNIT.

    Watson, go back and read the definitions on what a BUILDING is, I've already posted what the definitions of a DWELLING UNIT is - THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

    If the attached garage serves a purpose other than mere storage (of vehicles or whatever) It is OCCUPIED. It (the attached garage serving other than mere vehicle storage and related storage) requires a means of egress.An OH garage door is not an acceptable means of egress FROM the garage.A detached garage is an accessory building.
    Again (yes, this has been asked before and you STILL have not provided it) provide the code section which requires what you are saying. You are still going back to "OCCUPIED" and that does not apply here.

    A single family home with attached garage/building doesn't have a "dwelling unit" it is a dwelling, it is one building.
    Watson, again ... READ THE DEFINITIONS ... a DWELLING UNIT and its attached GARAGE are TWO DIFFERENT OCCUPANCIES ... AND ... THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT for a side-hinged egress door from a garage, attached or detached, nor whether there is, or is not, any equipment installed in the garage.

    You need to get your head out of your butt and use your head to think with instead of just using it as a butt plug. Crimeny.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    It is part of THE Building, but it is NOT part of THE DWELLING UNIT.

    .....You need to get your head out of your butt and use your head to think with instead of just using it as a butt plug. Crimeny.
    I love you guys.... I needed a little cheering up today, car in accident yesterday--no one hurt. You both did it!!! Thanks a lot!


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    FWIW; Jerry P is correct. HG is not. California covers this subject in the 2010 CRC 302.5.1., and in the 2009 IRC 311. Its mind boggling how many folks are capable of misinterpreting what is for the most part simply stated in our code books?

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Nope he's not.

    First of all there isn't a 2010 IRC. Peck cites the non-existant edition but can't read it.

    Next, a "means of egress" is NOT defined in the IRC. The IRC MERELY PRESCRIBES a means of egress, it does NOT ascribe or DEFINE the term - nor its componants.

    Peck's "dwelling unit" argument holds no water - especially in the OPs defined single family home with attached garage. Both the (note correct edition year) 2009 and 2012 make mention of what a dwelling unit and a dwelling contain, but is not limited to what is included.

    Finally, as referenced, a means of egress is required for all occupied areas of said singlefmaily home with attached garage. Peck oftentimes gets confused between habitation and occupation, or just what IS and IS NOT a habital attic. There is doubt whatsoever that an OH door does not meet the operation and force requirements for same. There is further NO DOUBT that a "galley kitchen" as Peck proposes does not meet requirements for the component requirements for a means of egress.

    An individual in the garage, say at the electrical panel, water heater, washing machine, furnace (all examples of things other than storage general or storage of vehicles mentioned previously) and a kitchen fire add together events - party in the garage must have a means of egress - through a common hall or corridor, exit path, to a man door to the outdoors, NOT via the "Kitchen" - which again, is NOT defined as a room, but an AREA - however as Peck proposed way back at the beginning would NOT be a proper pathway/means of egress from an attached GARAGE with OCCUPANCY other than mere storage or storage of vehicles.

    It would also be problematic (OSHA) for any worker to service those appliances, appartuances, electrical panel, etc. installed in said attached garage.

    The IRC minimum prescribed singular Exit Door does not equate to Means of Egress. Nor does it allow an Exit Access from another OCCUPIED portion of the BUILDING (and yes in 2012 IRC this DWELLING includes OCCUPIED not just Habital areas ascribed). The EXIT ACCESS from the garage to a minimum singular Exit Door must still comply with the CODE DEFINED TERMS which ARE found in the IBC, not repeated nor differently defined in the IRC. The IRC merely requires a Means of Egress - the term itself, and its componants are DEFINED in the IBC.

    An EXIT ACCESS is a defined term and is a requirement componant of a MEANS OF EGRESS. Exit Access is required from every OCCUPIED portion of a BUILDING. If the only Exit Access from an occupied attached garage containing as referenced multiple times previously is via the defined Kitchen - it is NOT compliant - and THEN there would necessarily be a SECOND EXIT DOOR - i.e. one from the attached garage itself. Just as there are circumstances in which additional Exit Doors are required from Dwellings themselves - due to footprint, organization - and SIZE, etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-06-2011 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Sigh.

    Although a means of egress is prescribed by the IRC it is not defined, nor are the host of applicable terms which are used in this area.

    This is why, we are directed to the Other International Codes back in Chapter 2.

    See Definitions in the IBC, which is WHERE they are defined, including just what the "exit" is, which will refer you to the HOST of definitions at 1002.1 which such are applicable to the entire IBC, and when not defined in the IRC differently, are also applicable to the IRC.

    This has often been a difficult thing for you to both grasp and retain.

    The TERMS are sprinkled throughout the IRC, including fire resistant construction, areas requiring flame spread index values, smoke index values, etc.

    IRC 2009:
    Chapter 2 - Definitions
    SECTION R201 GENERAL
    R201.3 Terms defined in other codes
    R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.

    You will find these terms listed at Chapter 2 in the IBC, which refers you to Section 1002.1 for their definitions, 1002.1 is a list of terms and their definitions.

    These terms are NOT defined in the IRC, they are USED, and they are PRESCRIBED.

    IBC 2009
    DEFINITIONS:
    EXIT. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ACCESS. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ACCESS DOORWAY. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT DISCHARGE, LEVEL OF. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT ENCLOSURE. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT, HORIZONTAL. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    EXIT PASSAGEWAY. SEE SECTION 1002.1
    MEANS OF EGRESS. SEE SECTION 1002.1

    COMMON PATH OF EGRESS TRAVEL. That portion of exit access which the occupants are required to traverse before two separate and distinct paths of egress travel to two exits are available. Paths that merge are common paths of travel. Common paths of egress travel shall be included within the permitted travel distance.

    CORRIDOR. An enclosed exit access component that defines and provides a path of egress travel to an exit.

    EXIT. That portion of a means of egress system which is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives as required to provide a protected path of egress travel between the exit access and the exit discharge. Exits include exterior exit doors at the level of exit discharge, vertical exit enclosures, exit passageways, exterior exit stairways, exterior exit ramps and horizontal exits.

    EXIT ACCESS. That portion of a means of egress system that leads from any occupied portion of a building or structure to an exit.

    EXIT ACCESS DOORWAY. A door or access point along the path of egress travel from an occupied room, area or space where the path of egress enters an intervening room, corridor, unenclosed exit access stair or unenclosed exit access ramp.

    EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.

    EXIT DISCHARGE, LEVEL OF. The story at the point at which an exit terminates and an exit discharge begins.

    EXIT ENCLOSURE. An exit component that is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives, and provides for a protected path of egress travel in a vertical or horizontal direction to the exit discharge or the public way.

    EXIT, HORIZONTAL. A path of egress travel from one building to an area in another building on approximately the same level, or a path of egress travel through or around a wall or partition to an area on approximately the same level in the same building, which affords safety from fire and smoke from the area of incidence and areas communicating therewith.

    EXIT PASSAGEWAY. An exit component that is separated from other interior spaces of a building or structure by fire-resistance-rated construction and opening protectives, and provides for a protected path of egress travel in a horizontal direction to the exit discharge or the public way.


    MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.



    Again IRC R201.3 Terms defined in other codes. Where terms are not defined in this code such terms shall have meanings ascribed to them as in other code publications of the International Code Council.


    Further the flame spread index (200 or less) and the smoke index (450 or less) aren't even minimally maintained in a finished "galley" kitchen. "coatings" in excess of what is it 1/32 inch are applied to what is required to be fire resistant construction for "the exit" which is NOT the exit discharge - and an essential portion of the IRC prescribed "Means of Egress", which is also defined, (only prescribed in the IRC) IN THE IBC.


    Next you'll tell me the prescribed minimum separations, surface materials, blocking, stoping, and prescribed door between the garage are not fire resistant construction and that Section 302 is not entitled "Fire Resistant Construction", prescribed fire partition, meeting specifications detailed in IBC Table 720.1(2)

    720.1 General. The provisions of this section contain prescriptive details of fire-resistance-rated building elements, components or assemblies. The materials of construction listed in Tables 720.1(1), 720.1(2), and 720.1(3) shall be assumed to have the fire-resistance ratings prescribed therein.]
    or will you say that "Means of Egress" only applies to the "dwelling unit" portion of the building comprising the single family home with attached garage ("dwelling".)!

    The minimum prescriptions for wall covering, ceiling covering, and "separation wall" floor-ceiling assemblies, stopping, blocking, penetrations, and other construction prescriptions in the IRC with prescribed doors etc. DO constitute fire-resistance-rated consruction building elements as defined. ascribed and prescribed by the international code council codes.


    Fire partitions and prescriptives for corridors and "dwelling unit" separations, and "dwelling unit" to attached garage separations (partitions, penetrations, wall coverings, ceiling, etc.) may not be "fire walls" but they are (as prescribed by the IRC in its entirety of such prescriptives as a whole), are in fact defined, ascribed and prescribed "fire-resistance-rated" construction, including "fire partitions", "fire resistance", "fire-resistant-rated", "corridors", "exit", "exit pathway" "means of egress", etc. as defined and prescribed in the IBC, which, (egad!) is an "other International Code" referenced back in Chapter 2 of the International Residential Code, where the IRC doesn't "define" the TERMS used in same.
    OCCUPIED counts. A Means of Egress is required from the attached garage - it is occupied. Occupied does NOT equate to habital or habitation. The necessary ascribed componants constituting a Means of Egress FROM the attached garage are PRESCRIBED.

    Attached is Haggerstown (Md)'s K.I.S.S. document on the subject. You can navigate to it yourself at: http://www.hagerstownmd.org/Assets/C...-of-Egress.pdf

    You can also review similar at other offices of jurisdiction and hosted at the state level, similarly, you can acquire the specific citations and interpretations from the various autonomous jurisdictions throughout your region, Bob S.

    Of course the OP didn't indicate which city, county or area the questioned attached garage was in - and of course Jerry Peck is busy adding in componants and twisting his own rope.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-06-2011 at 11:03 AM.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Besides his other handicaps HG can't read. 2010 CRC; AKA California Residential Code...... sigh

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Round and round we go. Yelling, and challenging each other. When is enough enough?

    Very professional to say the least.

    The original poster asked a very simple question and now multiple answers. Who is being served by this nonsense?


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Round and round we go. Yelling, and challenging each other. When is enough enough?

    Very professional to say the least.

    The original poster asked a very simple question and now multiple answers. Who is being served by this nonsense?
    Raymond,

    Would you and everyone be better served to allow INCORRECT information to stand uncorrected?

    If yes, say so. You have not said so yet.

    If no, then stop belly-aching about those of us who are correcting incorrect information.

    RAYMOND, DO YOU WANT US TO ALLOW INCORRECT INFORMATION TO GO UNCORRECTED?

    That is a YES or NO question.

    What is your answer?


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Raymond,

    Would you and everyone be better served to allow INCORRECT information to stand uncorrected?

    If yes, say so. You have not said so yet.

    If no, then stop belly-aching about those of us who are correcting incorrect information.

    RAYMOND, DO YOU WANT US TO ALLOW INCORRECT INFORMATION TO GO UNCORRECTED?

    That is a YES or NO question.

    What is your answer?
    JERRY PECK SEEING AS YOU HAVE TAKEN TO SHOUTING, I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU ARE RIGHT OR WRONG. FOR SOMEONE WHO IS EAGER TO TOUT HIS OWN HORN, YOU ARE NOT BEING PROFESSIONAL AND YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

    YOU CONTINUALLY LOWER YOURSELF TO A LEVEL YOU SAY YOU ARE ABOVE.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Raymond,

    Would you and everyone be better served to allow INCORRECT information to stand uncorrected?

    If yes, say so. You have not said so yet.

    If no, then stop belly-aching about those of us who are correcting incorrect information.

    RAYMOND, DO YOU WANT US TO ALLOW INCORRECT INFORMATION TO GO UNCORRECTED?

    That is a YES or NO question.

    What is your answer?
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    JERRY PECK SEEING AS YOU HAVE TAKEN TO SHOUTING, I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOU ARE RIGHT OR WRONG. FOR SOMEONE WHO IS EAGER TO TOUT HIS OWN HORN, YOU ARE NOT BEING PROFESSIONAL AND YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

    YOU CONTINUALLY LOWER YOURSELF TO A LEVEL YOU SAY YOU ARE ABOVE.
    I am still seeking that answer from your position on another post, and you have not made your answer known, so I figured I needed to get your attention - which I did.

    NOW ... will you be like Watson and belly-ache and complain but not provide answers when ask?

    I have your attention, just not your answer, chose one:
    - Yes
    - No

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I am not going to answer because quite frankly there are two answers. You say you are correct and Watson claims he is correct. The truth is in between.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I am not going to answer because quite frankly there are two answers. You say you are correct and Watson claims he is correct. The truth is in between.
    If you believe so, then give us what the "truth" is.

    We are all waiting for your "truth", show me, rather, show us, all of us.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    I am not going to answer because quite frankly there are two answers. You say you are correct and Watson claims he is correct. The truth is in between.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If you believe so, then give us what the "truth" is.

    We are all waiting for your "truth", show me, rather, show us, all of us.
    Raymond?

    We are all still waiting for your "truth".

    Watson says the man door is required for the garage, I say it is not, you say it is "between" those answers, so ... half a door is required? The other half of the door is not?

    You need to clear up what your "truth" is, Raymond.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Gentlemen, please, enough already.

    JP made his points.

    HG made his points.

    Neither side will acquiesce, and each believes his is the only "truth".
    Either one of you can end the bickering at any time.

    By now, the whole issue is moot because you both have diluted the original question with a volley of code cites peppered with insults.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Naw, Jerry Peck is so busy with his mischaracterizations of what has and has not been said he has apparently fooled himself as to the topic discussion.

    The OP inquired as to where the closer rule was for the door opening in the garage to home prescribed IRC separation wall.

    I advised him to review the correct section (R302.5.1) to where in prior editions he may find a local ammendment, and to where the requirement is expressly required in the unammended 2012 IRC.

    Next we explored the required Means of Egress FROM an attached garage serving purposes/occupancies other than mere storage (of vehicles and other) i.e. hosting required mechanicals, plumbing appartuances, and other accessory usage areas such as laundry area, and electrical panels, to a single family home. Peck went "off the reservation" trying to establish the terms not defined in the IRC were not to be referenced from the IBC (contradicting both the IRC and the IBC, and all other I-codes).

    Forest - trees.

    Somewhere Peck has disconnected and taken his own path/view as to just what has and has not been said, or discussed by others; not the first time and won't be the last.

    For whatever self-serving reason (?) Peck likes to "insert" his logic that "Dwelling" equals "Dwelling Unit" (two distinct separately defined terms in the IRC) and argue that a single family detached home with an attached garage - that the attached garage is somehow exempt from the building and safety requirements prescribed by the IRC, and ignore the building planning requirements for a (defined in other I-Codes and refered to by the IRC as such) Means of Egress. Obviously unencumbered by an understanding of the technical corr. and other committees responsible for the organization, hierarchy, and style of the model codes language.


    2009 IRC Chapter 2 Definitions:

    DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.

    DWELLING UNIT.
    A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

    LIVING SPACE. Space within a dwelling unit utilized for living, sleeping, eating, cooking, bathing, washing and sanitation purposes.
    OCCUPIED SPACE. The total area of all buildings or structures on any lot or parcel of ground projected on a horizontal plane, excluding permitted projections as allowed by this code.
    • Note DISTINCTIONS above!
    • Note, R311 Uses the term "dwelling", in the prescription for "Means of Egress", and NOT the term "dwelling unit" (despite Peck's assertion that "means of egress" are only required for "dwelling units" and not limited to "Living Space".
    The Dwelling is the entirety of the building which contains one or two dwelling units. If said building includes an attached "garage" - this too is a part of the building (i.e. "dwelling").

    Peck seems to assert "means of egress" is only required for "Living Space", and twists the code to promote that assertion; the assertion is false. If this was the case, the code would use the term "living space", if the code required "means of egress" only from "habital space" it would so indicate. Instead, it requires "means of egress" from ALL OCCUPIED areas of a DWELLING (not just "dwelling units").

    Recall, if you will, the discussion continued in this direction when said "garage" was not simply hosting "garage" occupancy (storage).

    Now let us revisit the requirement:

    2009 IRC SECTION R311 MEANS OF EGRESS (term defined in the IBC):

    R311.1 Means of egress. All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.

    ALL portions "of the dwelling"! That is the BUILDING. Not just the "dwelling unit(s)", not just the "living space(s)", a means of egress is required "from ALL portions of the dwelling".

    We are not discussing an accessory structure - this discussion has been and continues to be an attached garage to a single family detached home, and this was brought up when the attached garage space contained mechanical system componants, appliances, plumbing apppurtuances, laundry area, electrical panels serving the living areas, etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-07-2011 at 10:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Curious, why do some folks call it a "man door?" I was unaware doors had a sex?

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Curious, why do some folks call it a "man door?" I was unaware doors had a sex?
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    P.S. I usually "think" of an egress door (exit) as a "man door" when it comes to same referencing a garage, detached or attached, not necessarily a door which communicates to the garage from the living space.
    I believe you will find that most of the times (I may have missed a few, but "most" does not mean "all" ) I used "man door" I put it in quotes as Watson used that term.

    Even calling it a "unisex door" adds something which is not needed. If it is an "egress door", as we were being told it was required, an "egress door" is required to be a side-hinged door unless it is an automatic sliding door (there are a few other options, but an overhead garage door is not one of the other options). Just referring to that door as an egress door specifies what its intended use is to be, and thus what type of door it should be.

    As such, there is no requirement for an "egress door" from a "garage", whether attached or detached.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    Curious, why do some folks call it a "man door?" I was unaware doors had a sex?
    Because you say whhhhhooa man (read woman)! You can't come in my garage!


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    An attached garage to a single family dwelling requires either an egress door or a legitimate exit access doorway.

    All dwellings (buildings) under the IRC require at least (a minimum of) one egress door. Many dwellings require more than one egress door, it depends. A Means of Egress (as defined in the IBC - including its necessary componants) is required from all occupied portions of the dwelling (not just dwelling units, and not just living spaces of the dwelling).

    We have not discussed accessory structures such as free-standing garages (detached).


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I have found this thread a very interesting read
    There is no requirement in the IRC about the means of egress passing through a kitchen (there is in the IBC for commercial kitchens).

    To miscontrue the definition of "habitable space" to say that an egress path from the garage through a kitchen is noncompliant makes no sense. One of the other areas that is not considered habitable space is a hallway. If I can't use the kitchen to get out of the house how can I use the hallway?

    There is no requirement in the IRC limiting the travel distance from a point in the dwelling to the exit door. As well as there is no limitation on how many countertops and such that I may have to go around to get there. Whether it is a galley kitchen or not makes no difference. Section R201.3, Terms not defined; means that if a term is used in the IRC and is not defined in the IRC then you can go elsewhere to define it. It does not mean you can use terms not used in the IRC and try to apply them to the IRC.

    The IRC is a stand alone code and does not need the IBC to make it work. Section R102.4, "...Where differences occur between provisions of this code and referenced code and standards, the provisions of this code shall apply." Exit, Exit Access, and Exit Discharge have nothing to do with a single family dwelling. A clear and unobstructed path does not mean there can be nothing between you and the exit, if it did the desk I am sitting behind would be a violation of the code.

    Now on to doors. If the door between the house and the garage needs to be an exit door, then it needs to meet the minimum opening width requirement of 32 inches. And if it needs to be an exit door than so does every other door in the house. But since my bedroom door goes into a hallway and I can't use the hallway as an exit access, I guess I am screwed.

    You can't mix and match the codes to make your case.

    The UBC (a code that was meant to be used for all occupancies)specifically exempted single family dwellings from many of the requirements listed by HG.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    [QUOTE=H.G. Watson, Sr.;184156]An attached garage to a single family dwelling requires either an egress door or a legitimate exit access doorway.

    Huh

    2009 IRC Section R311, Means of Egress:
    All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through the garage.

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    If I may, I believe what Mr Watson is saying:
    An attached garage is part of the dwelling
    Every part of the dwelling needs a door for egress
    (including an attached garage)
    An overhead garage door is not an acceptable egress door
    Since an attached garage needs an acceptable form of egress door (not an overhead garage door), a side hinge door is required.

    The side hinge door could exit to the outside or to the interior of the house (for example the kitchen).
    Example
    If someone is in the garage and the overhead garage door is closed, and they are unable to lift the overhead door, they could exit the garage through the side hinge door into the house (or to the outside).

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I've seen hundreds of attached garages without a side hinged "man" door.

    So Rick, how about a code quote from the 2009 IRC substantiating your opinion?

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    I've seen hundreds of attached garages without a side hinged "man" door.

    So Rick, how about a code quote from the 2009 IRC substantiating your opinion?
    I was explaining what I think Mr Watson was trying to say, but in my words.
    Does hove some logic to it though.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    If I may, I believe what Mr Watson is saying:
    An attached garage is part of the dwelling
    You are correct in that Watson *is* saying that the attached garage is part of the dwelling ... Watson is incorrect in that statement - a "garage", attached or not, *is not* "part of" the dwelling ... there is even a "separation wall" between the two. "The dwelling" and "the garage" are different occupancies.

    What Watson is saying that if an apple (the "dwelling") is next to and touching an orange (the "garage"), the orange is therefore an apple.

    Watson is incorrect in his statements - why do you think they call it an "attached garage"? Because the "garage" is a separate occupancy and it is "attached" to the "dwelling", which is a separate and defined occupancy.

    Not sure how many other ways there are to explain it.

    Every part of the dwelling needs a door for egress
    Incorrect as you have stated it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    "Every part of the dwelling needs a door for egress"
    Incorrect as you have stated it.


    Every part of the dwelling needs an egress route.
    Better?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "Every part of the dwelling needs a door for egress"
    Incorrect as you have stated it.


    Every part of the dwelling needs an egress route.
    Better?
    That is better, but the more correct way is to state that every dwelling requires at least one egress door, and egress through a garage is not allowed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That is better, but the more correct way is to state that every dwelling requires at least one egress door, and egress through a garage is not allowed.
    Yes, but I believe Mr Watson is talking about egress FROM the garage.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    What I should say, I suppose, is that the code does not require that "Every part of the dwelling needs an egress route."

    "Every part of the dwelling" would include the attic if there is an attic, the crawlspace if there is a crawlspace, the fireplace, water heater understair storage closet, etc.

    The code only requires that there be "not less than one" "exit door" for each dwelling.

    The code presumes that if there is a way into a space in the dwelling, there is a way out of that space, but mainly the code addresses habitable space, and closets, kitchens, and bathrooms are not considered as being "habitable space". However, those areas (rooms) all have a way in, and thus a way out.

    The code only requires a secondary means of egress from sleeping rooms (bedrooms, efficiency room, etc., which have provisions for sleeping, i.e., have a "bed").

    Even basements, which are sometimes rather tricky places to get out of during a fire do not require a secondary means of escape or rescue ... unless there is one or more sleeping rooms in the basement, in which case you can fall back to the "sleeping rooms" requirements which requires secondary means of egress in all sleeping rooms without regard to their location.

    Basically, if you can get into an area of the dwelling, you can get out of that area, and if you can get out of that area of the dwelling and into the main dwelling area, then you can get to the exit door. Even though there may be cases where this is not true, that is all the code requires - here is an example of an area which is not required to have a secondary means of egress: you are in an interior bathroom (one not on an exterior wall) and the fire is outside the bathroom door ... you are pretty much screwed!

    Remember, the code only provides a minimum standard:
    - R101.3 Purpose. The purpose of this code is to provide minimum requirements to safeguard the public safety, health and general welfare through affordability, structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, light and ventilation, energy conservation and safety to life and property from fire and other hazards attributed to the built environment.

    The does not, cannot, purport to cover all possible scenarios of what might happen or designs/plans/layouts which might be conceived by the human mind.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Yes, but I believe Mr Watson is talking about egress FROM the garage.
    Actually, he started out talking about egress from the kitchen through the garage, then changed to egress from the garage, then ... as he wandered about trying to find something which he could try to fit what he was saying.

    Nonetheless, though, the IRC does not require an exit (egress) door from a garage.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, he started out talking about egress from the kitchen through the garage, then changed to egress from the garage, then ... as he wandered about trying to find something which he could try to fit what he was saying.

    Nonetheless, though, the IRC does not require an exit (egress) door from a garage.
    Nope, I NEVER SAID THAT PECK. YOU in your usual fashion twisted in your own mind and tried to claim that I said that. I NEVER spoke of a means of egress FROM the kitchen THROUGH the garage! THAT IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED. YOU did, not me. YOUR failure to READ what was written, and not read into what was written to suit YOUR OWN AGENDA.

    I was solely speaking of a means of egress FROM the garage.

    Way on up at the beginning you started claiming that.

    I said the means of egress FROM the garage could not be via YOUR galley kitchen example.

    Check the prepositional words.

    As usual you're trying to bury in B.S. your OWN agenda, PECK.

    The IRC DEFINES a DWELLING as a BUILDING not an OCCUPANCY classification.

    A Means of egress is required from all occupied areas of the DWELLING (BUILDING).

    A sole egress door is not what the IRC prescribes, it prescribes AT LEAST ONE.

    A Means of Egress is NOT DEFINED in the IRC, the IRC is not a stand-alone code - IT DEFERS to OTHER I-Codes and OTHER CODES. Fred W. is off the mark and has ignored the first section of Chapter 2 with that.

    We aren't discussing "any" garage we are discussing an attached garage.

    Fire resistant construction occurs in multiple areas of a dwelling - it is prescribed - not JUST the "separation wall" of an attached garage.

    Means of Egress is NOT MERELY the presence of an (or multiple) egress door(s).

    If that door between the attached garage and the dwelling UNIT has access to a legitimate path - its great and as prescribed, but opening to the butt end of a "galley kitchen" wouldn't be a valid means of egress FROM the (again - QUALIFIED way on up there that the "attached garage" EXAMPLE given - contained mechanical system componants, plumbing apartuances, electrical panel, or laundry facilities serving the dwelling) - another KEY point that was part way back up there in the first few posts of discussion on this thread that you continually twist, then selectively ignore, than intentionally mischaracterize.

    An OH door requires more than 15 ft. lbs to operate and special knowledge - doesn't count as a means of egress or an egress door.

    This discussion in NO WAY pertained to a DETACHED garage.

    OCCUPIED does not equate to habital,
    OCCUPIED does not equate to living space,
    OCCUPIED does not equate to dwelling unit,
    OCCUPIED does not equate to conditioned space,
    although it can include the above it is not limited to the above.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The IRC DEFINES a DWELLING as a BUILDING not an OCCUPANCY classification.

    A Means of egress is required from all occupied areas of the DWELLING (BUILDING).

    A sole egress door is not what the IRC prescribes, it prescribes AT LEAST ONE.
    Too much to go through Watson's entire post showing each fallacy, so I will limit this to the above ones.

    DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes.

    DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.

    BUILDING. Building shall mean any one- and two-family dwelling or portion thereof, including townhouses, that is used, or designed or intended to be used for human habitation, for living, sleeping, cooking or eating purposes, or any combination thereof, and shall include accessory structures thereto.

    ACCESSORY STRUCTURE. A structure not greater than 3,000 square feet (279 m2) in floor area, and not over two stories in height, the use of which is customarily accessory to and incidental to that of the dwelling(s) and which is located on the same lot.

    Note that the DWELLING is that portion of a BUILDING which contains one or two DWELLING UNITS and is used for the same purposes as those of a DWELLING UNIT: "to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes", i.e., the area which includes "permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation".

    Note that a GARAGE *is not* part of the DWELLING or the DWELLING UNIT. One could call an attached GARAGE an attached "accessory building" if one so chose to, but it is not part of the dwelling.

    Note that "not less than one" door must comply with the requirements for the exit door, that DOES NOT MEAN IT REQUIRES TWO doors which meet those requirements, only that it REQUIRES ONE which meets those requirements.

    Note that the IRC also states that further clarifies the above by stating "Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions."

    You can have as many OTHER doors as you want, however, you are only REQUIRED to have ONE exit door which meets the requirements for the EXIT DOOR, and that ALL OTHER DOORS are SPECIFICALLY NOT REQUIRED to meet the requirements for exit doors.

    (sigh - Watson has closed his mind and refuses to look at the code stated requirements and non-required items which he continues to state are required, even though the code specifically states they are not required.)

    Raymond, you still have not answered - would you like to have Watson's incorrect information left as though it were correct? Or would you like to have that incorrect information corrected? Are we having fun yet?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Raymond, you still have not answered - would you like to have Watson's incorrect information left as though it were correct? Or would you like to have that incorrect information corrected? Are we having fun yet?
    Jerry your like the little boy who sat on the milk can and farted to see how much noise he could make. I don't give a rats ass about your pompous attitude, nor that of Watsons. Nor your continual digs for anyone not agreeing with you.

    The conversation has become nothing but a pissing match and a waste of bandwidth.

    Let people make up their own mind who is right or wrong. I and others don't need you shoving anything down our throats. You do this every time you feel someone is out gunning you. The last one was with bundling of electrical wires. You may like to think you are right but when you carry on like this it shows just what you aren't made of.

    Let it die.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You are correct in that Watson *is* saying that the attached garage is part of the dwelling ... Watson is incorrect in that statement - a "garage", attached or not, *is not* "part of" the dwelling ... there is even a "separation wall" between the two. "The dwelling" and "the garage" are different occupancies.

    What Watson is saying that if an apple (the "dwelling") is next to and touching an orange (the "garage"), the orange is therefore an apple.

    Watson is incorrect in his statements - why do you think they call it an "attached garage"? Because the "garage" is a separate occupancy and it is "attached" to the "dwelling", which is a separate and defined occupancy.

    Not sure how many other ways there are to explain it.

    Incorrect as you have stated it.
    I have an easy way... talk to your insurance company. They will tell you exactly which is which and how they treat each.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post
    Jerry your like the little boy who sat on the milk can and farted to see how much noise he could make. I don't give a rats ass about your pompous attitude, nor that of Watsons. Nor your continual digs for anyone not agreeing with you.

    The conversation has become nothing but a pissing match and a waste of bandwidth.

    Let people make up their own mind who is right or wrong. I and others don't need you shoving anything down our throats. You do this every time you feel someone is out gunning you. The last one was with bundling of electrical wires. You may like to think you are right but when you carry on like this it shows just what you aren't made of.

    Let it die.
    The post of someone who says they know the truth, but are unwilling to share that "truth".

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I have an easy way... talk to your insurance company. They will tell you exactly which is which and how they treat each.
    The post of a smart man is the last post.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Peck

    How many times are you going to rehash your arguments? You call yourself a litigation consultant, but now I am doubting you are capable of being anything but a boor.

    You have thusly demonstrated your lack of professionalism with your rants and screaming. I expected no less.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Raymond, give it a rest.

    Jerry McCarthy
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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Thanks Jerry, your right.


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    2009 IRC SECTION R311 MEANS OF EGRESS (term defined in the IBC):

    R311.1 Means of egress. All dwellings shall be provided with a means of egress as provided in this section. The means of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the dwelling to the exterior of the dwelling at the required egress door without requiring travel through a garage.

    ALL portions "of the dwelling"! That is the BUILDING. Not just the "dwelling unit(s)", not just the "living space(s)", a means of egress is required "from ALL portions of the dwelling".


    Peck disingenuously "INSERTED" the word "unit" after the edited form (originally "dwelling") of the word "dwellingS" and changed his represented quote of the 2009 IRC as "dwelling unit" and not as "dwellings" as it actually appears.

    Peck also MISQUOTES statements by shortening dropping "words" and trunkating TERMS (some of which are COMPOUND, i.e. more thn one word) in his failing "arguments".

    He also refers to non-existant editions, and plays games with cross-posting language from different editions.

    Why does he do this? Because he's frozen in time with his 2006, FLORIDA amended jurisdictional application in his limited capactity as a part-time, on-call, inspector for a tiny jurisdiction. He oftentimes posts here in conradiction to his own state's rulings, and in opposition to the ACTUAL building official's "opinion", and is incapable of maintaining a thought process where a distinction with a difference is referenced and unable to recognize defined TERMS, or comprehending directional prepositions and ignores that the whole includes any part thereof, the singular includes the plural, and most certainly and always confuses code construction, i.e. that the code may not require the existance of a feature, but addresses requirements when such a feature IS PRESENT.

    In this case he further gets stuck on the fact that the raw code prior to 2012 does not require any opening in the prescribed attached garage separation wall, or that any pedestrian door be present when a garage is merely used as a garage only and its vehicular door is acceptable, but that the addition of a personel door (be it optional or required due to the presence of mechanicals, laundry area, or even a "habital attic" above, envokes additional requirements.

    He additionally gets STUCK on the fact that IF a pedestrian door is present in a garage occupancy it MUST be either an exit door OR communicate (open to) to a MEANS OF EGRESS and falls under R311.

    The code does not say "dwelling unit" it says "dwellings".

    The code applies to ALL structures including accessory structures, and all occupancies and spaces, (not just habital space, not just "dwelling unit" space, not just "living space" and not just conditioned space) unless otherwise excepted. Chapters 1 & 2 preceed Chapter 3.

    Sadly WCJ mischaracterized California requirements which have been present since long before (1970s) it adopted its version of IRC (Part 2.5 of Title 24) and continues TO THIS DAY (two adoptions of significantly ammended IRC code cycles).


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    For the sake of everyone's sanity, I will leave it at this: Yet again Watson has shown that he does not understand the code and its requirements.

    If Watson replies with more nonsense, as he always does, I will leave his nonsense for all to see and ignore without responding to it as we will all know that it will be nonsense due to Watson's lack of understanding of the codes.

    I trust all here, at least most here, recognize Watson's responses for what they are.

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Nope, I NEVER SAID THAT PECK..
    Wow, took over a year for that comeback.

    Things must be slow at the home... Talk about a time warp... Just like it was yesterday (almost).


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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Wow, took over a year for that comeback.

    Things must be slow at the home... Talk about a time warp... Just like it was yesterday (almost).
    Unbelievable. This thread sits dormant for over a year gets resurrected so more insults and accusations can be levied. I find this a bit disturbing.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: Where is the Garage Man-Door closer rule?

    I guess some of the folks who visit and participate in this forum do so for entertainment value. Those people may enjoy the adversarial bickering that has been part of this environment for years.

    I suspect there are other folks, like me, who are here for useful information presented in a reasonable and useful manner. In this case the adversarial bickering is a nonproductive distraction that makes the forum less useful. For this purpose, I have found that the Ignore feature of the software, used for only two people returned the forum to its full potential. Before I reached this conclusion, I found out the hard way that attempting to modify the child like behavior was a waste of my time and energy.


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