Thread: WRB issues with stucco

I recently took off another stucco facade and continue to see the same concern with horizontal taping of the paper joints. This system was a 7/8" inch thick which was unusual for builders, but I have this documented in 1 coat systems too.

Any one out there peeling back the onion for stucco litigation or investigation and have any documentation of the same or any opinions of other wrb's failing or working??

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The WRB looks slightly corrugated - I wonder if that causes problems in getting a good seal.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

The WRB looks slightly corrugated - I wonder if that causes problems in getting a good seal.

The ribs are there to provide drainage channels between the bond breaker layer and the WRB. If installed properly, the water and moisture which goes through the stucco will weep down those channels and out the weep screed at the bottom ... oh, wait ... they still aren't using weep screed are they?

knowing the perm rating of the tape should provide the answer for the moisture concentrated stain

Originally Posted by BARRY ADAIR

knowing the perm rating of the tape should provide the answer for the moisture concentrated stain

Also, taping two ribbed pieces together is a bit difficult unless you can get one piece to lay in the channels of the other piece.

The ribs/channels should be vertical, not at an angle and not horizontal.

Thats the point, is the taping is to manufacturers specifacations, a battle I have been involved with, I am curious if anyone out there peeling the onion back has also come across this failure.

Part of all the problems we have is the testing of the WRB products and what get shoved down our throats of how to install, where to put the staples. Yes there are missing componant problems but many WRB failures too that get over looked.

The WRB is not rated to be wet indefinitely. What we see happening is that most installers cannot install tape without some gaps at the ribs (or even smooth wrb). Water is then trapped behind the tape and sitting at the WRB that may have only a 30 or 60 minute rating. It is eventually going to seep through if is sits long enough. Just my opinion (and my experience)

See: Water-Managed Wall Systems — Building Science Information

I can appreciate everyones knowledge out here, but my question remains the same, are there others out here in our great nation of ours pulling the systems apart, documenting every componant of the stucco application and comparing these field notes to what works and what does not.

This documentation is not the smoking gun of stucco failure but it sheds light to what manufacturers tell us how to install. I have been on way too many sewing club field invasives with all the distributors of the products covering their butts to how their product was not installed to manufactureres specs and pass the blame to the contractor. I have contractors who take this product very serious, been in business 30 plus years and disect their own installtions and are pushing back.
I know why this paper is failing and personally the only paper I see working for stucco is a Barricade main paper with a Weather Trek sacraficial lamb or secondary paper. The Weather Trek appears to be the only paper not sticking to plaster when removed in sections off and you peel the paper off the back side of the scratch coat. I am not trying to bash one company nor promote another, justy looking for share information which makes the internet a valuable tool for all of us.

Shawn, you state in your experience, are you observing any of this when you pull stucco apart in Florida? or anyone out ther.

Michael, even the building science guy is stating to tape the seems in the drainage plane section of his paper, thats good for vinyl and some other claddings but look at the photo and tell me if you would follow manufactures specifactions on taping horizontally when stucco is the cladding, and this is not the only job i have of it documented on.

Joseph

i live in the land of faux stone and am seeing plenty of failures. The faux stone is really stucco with rocks stuck in its face.

I do agree the best way is two layer with the outer ending up sacrificial over time. As far as ACMV is concerned it is two layers of paper then the rainscreen, This is the only way i see it holding up over time

Here is a picture for you of one we just took apart.
It did have a kick-out but was not installed correctly.
A lot of the one layer of grade D paper had failed.

Originally Posted by Joseph Ehrhardt

Michael, even the building science guy is stating to tape the seems in the drainage plane section of his paper, thats good for vinyl and some other claddings but look at the photo and tell me if you would follow manufactures specifactions on taping horizontally when stucco is the cladding, and this is not the only job i have of it documented on.

Joseph,

You are missing the obvious of what is missing, the tape is not the issue, neither is how the tape is applied.

What I don't see is the drainage plane. Sure, they used ribbed building wrap, and , sure, ribbed building wrap has built-in drainage channels, and sure ... wait, based on your photo I don't see any bond breaker to keep the stucco from bonding to building wrap, or blocking the drainage channels - which means there is no drainage plane.

Not unless I am missing something in your photo.

And that missing drainage plane is the point of the article Michael linked to.

I don't really understand what you are asking. The tape (which is clearly marked tyvek) is compatible with the moisture barrier. The ribs are not stiff enough to prevent a seal, but since the seam is horizontal I don't think it is necessary anyway. I usually see this tape on vertical seams or around penetrations.

Since I don't see any evidence of a sand mix stucco on the paper, I'll assume you are referring to EIFS being removed.

So my question is: why do you think the damage has been caused by the tape? What damage was there to begin with that caused the removal??

By the way, personally I prefer a liquid applied internal barrier with the EPS attached adhesively (with beads running vertically). This allows for drainage without putting hundreds of holes in the barrier.

Remember EIFS stands for Exterior Insulated FINISHING System and not Exterior Insulated WATERPROOFING System. If you want an EIFS installation to be waterproof, it should be waterproof BEFORE you install the EIFS.

PS. As Jerry mentioned; If there is no way for the water to drain, a moisture barrier is not going to help. The water will find a way in.

Jerry ,look at the dark stain on the OSB sheathing in line across from the tape seam, the tape is failing the drainage plain of the paper and liqufied and soaking the osb. The bond breaker is already removed which was house wrap.The photo is with the stucco, wire and fasteners and bond breaker removed down to the first layer of the drainage paper and window SAF which is shown in the photo .I have the buildings wall surface cut in a grid and sections pulled apart piece by piece and documented for litigation.This was the first step installed at original construction and taped per Tyveks specifactions with over lap, then the house wrap and the wire lath fastened which were not into structural members and so forth till I plucked it like feathers. I have seen this dark water mark on the sheathing with every combination of paper and manufacturer when taped horizontally.When i first noticed this, it did not just jump out.. I caught a light band mark the width of tape on the building due to natural light hitting the wall. I started to pay attention to the tape joint during stucco invasives and not just focused with the typical head flashing, missing weeps etc, I documented a pattern. I spoke with some stucco contractors who stated they had documented this too.My main point is the horizontal joint of the papers should not be taped but properly lapped so that the incidential moisture can gravity pull down with no obstructions.I have never seen an issue with verticle seams.This site has a network of experience from all over, hoped someone may have seen the same thing.

Steve, this system happen to be a 7/8 hard coat Not EIFS, the main damage on this building was caused by window flashing, faulty lapping of the WRB etc...as stated above,the horizontal taping was something I have been uncovering for some time wicking the dammed moisture back to the OSB sheathing.The fact you state the tape is compatable with the paper is not an issue, the issue is the manufacturers are telling you to tape horizontally. Its not the big one of why theres failure and its not a lot moisture but alway appears to be a slow death to the sheathing and leaves a band. This early sign of wear to the osb is the staining and just happened to be prominent through out the building and was obvious from the required taping.

As demonstrated by the testing of sample wall assemblies cited in Joe Lstiburek's article, absent a bond breaker NO WRB is going to be sufficiently effective under these types of cladding.

Originally Posted by Joseph Ehrhardt

The bond breaker is already removed which was house wrap.The photo is with the stucco, wire and fasteners and bond breaker removed down to the first layer of the drainage paper and window SAF which is shown in the photo.

Joseph,

I still don't see any bond breaker, not even where it was cut off, and your statement is confusing to me.

You said "The bond breaker is already removed which was house wrap.", yet the house wrap is still shown. Are you saying there were TWO layers of house wrap?

Do you have a close-up photo of the edge of the stucco where it was cut back which shows that there is: a) a drainage plane, which could be house wrap or felt paper; and b) a bond breaker, which could also be house wrap or felt paper, or even the paper of paper backed metal lath; and c) the metal lath with stucco embedded in it; and d) the thickness of the scratch coat of the stucco (which would have the metal lath embedded in it), the brown coat of the stucco, and the finish coat of the stucco. The finish (paint, etc.) of the wall is of no or little consequence as that is not intended to be a barrier coat.

Having been in the stucco contracting business for 30 years, we have routinely removed failed stucco and EIFS from hundreds of structures. All will fail if not installed properly and with common sense, and the sacrificial layer is crucial and rarely seen. So our arguement is that the high tech WRB that are one layer of a product are destined for failure. I have taken our own jobs apart where we utilized such a WRB and was horrified at the results.

We have put all of the high tech WRB aside and gone back to reliable asphalt impregnated felt paper. We utilize Fortifiber which is a two ply 30 or 60 minute paper. The first layer is the sacrificial layer. The current model building codes call for two layers of felt.

It has always been our contention that the presence of moisture during the stucco curing process will cause the felt paper to "wrinkle" as is evident when we take a stucco system apart with a felt WRB. It will create channels and grooves in the stucco, allowing moisture someplace to travel. The system is not perfectly flat as a result of the channels. The moisture follows these channels, and a well planned executed stucco system will have an avenue for moisture to escape at the window and door heads and at the base of the wall.

Originally Posted by greg kimmet

We utilize Fortifiber which is a two ply 30 or 60 minute paper. The first layer is the sacrificial layer. The current model building codes call for two layers of felt.

The first layer is not a sacrificial layer as such but a bond breaker layer so the stucco does not bond to the second layer, which is the drainage plane. That is why current codes call for two layers - to allow the formation of a drainage plane between the bond breaker layer and the drainage plane layer.

It has always been our contention that the presence of moisture during the stucco curing process will cause the felt paper to "wrinkle" as is evident when we take a stucco system apart with a felt WRB. It will create channels and grooves in the stucco, allowing moisture someplace to travel. The system is not perfectly flat as a result of the channels. The moisture follows these channels, and a well planned executed stucco system will have an avenue for moisture to escape at the window and door heads and at the base of the wall.

That wrinkle effect is allowed to happen because the first layer is stuck to the stucco and the moisture is allowed through that first layer, the stucco is not allowed through that first layer, thus the formation of the drainage plane between the wrinkled second layer and the bond breaker first layer.

Stucco veneer installation is very problematic. It seems that the building departments never enforce the codes and ASTM Standards C 926 & C1063. Therefore builders never do it right.

Joseph,

I still don't see any bond breaker, not even where it was cut off, and your statement is confusing to me.JP, I do not understand whats confusing, I stated the entire stystem was carfully pulled apart, the WRB shown in the photo is the first layer of paper which is the stucco wrap. They had a house wrap as the second layer breaking the bond in between the stucco and wire lath to this photo of the stucco wrap.

You said "The bond breaker is already removed which was house wrap.", yet the house wrap is still shown. Are you saying there were TWO layers of house wrap?I am stating there was a layer of stucco wrap as the first wrb, then the second layer was the house wrap.

I would prefer not to post to many shots out at this time or the layers removed in sequence, but will state simply, I have seen the WRB horizontal taping in many combinations of differant brands installed from 1 paper jobs to 2 paper jobs where the horizontal taping is causing the wicking and darkening band from moisture left on the sheathing.Not the smoking gun of distruction, but its a problem

Has anyone seen this out there is the question?

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

See: Water-Managed Wall Systems — Building Science Information

Michael,
Absolutely dynamite article. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

The WRB looks slightly corrugated - I wonder if that causes problems in getting a good seal.

The taped Joints are for air penetration, as for keeping moisture OUT they trap it in. Try taping your raincoat to your rain pants some day and see how dry you stay inside of them.

I have traced water in the six inch taped over lap several times, condensation builds up over time , when it is not being sucked into the house by the HVAC, and in some climates the freeze and thaw cycles cause more cracks.


And in several areas of the country the carpenters install the house wrap and their lack of how things work is really the start of the failure no matter what the cladding is .