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  1. #1
    Chris Skoczylas's Avatar
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    Default Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    While testing the safety reverse on an automatic garage door opener, the bracket pulled out and bent the top panel of the door. Upon a closer look, it appears the door had been damaged in the past and the bracket poorly installed with (2) 1-1/4" drywall screws.
    The home owner says the door was working fine and that I owe him a new door.
    How would you handle this?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Most HI's will say "failed under test" and stand their ground, but do what you feel is best for your business.

    I damaged a cheap garage door one day, stopping it with my hand, bent the top and broke a window. I offered to fix it. Bought a length of angle iron and the owner helped me reinforce the top of the door and install a piece of glass. It cost me an afternoon, no job scheduled, and about $80 for glass and hardware. My client bought the house, no bad feelings all around.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Skoczylas View Post
    While testing the safety reverse on an automatic garage door opener, the bracket pulled out and bent the top panel of the door. Upon a closer look, it appears the door had been damaged in the past and the bracket poorly installed with (2) 1-1/4" drywall screws.
    The home owner says the door was working fine and that I owe him a new door.
    How would you handle this?
    A prime example of why we should not test the pressure reverse feature. Test the electric eyes and the balance of the door all day long.... Disclaim that you did not test this feature and go on with life, I do.

    If the top panel did not have a support brace running across it then it was installed wrong. All door manufactures require a support brace on the top panel and then a properly attached bracket. If you did not see the brace you should not have tested the door.

    Sorry, but I have to put the blame on you the inspector for this mishap.

    The door worked fine before you tested the reverse feature, the homeowner was correct. You damaged the door when you tested it, by holding it with your hands. You will find no testing method that says this is how you test the reversing feature. So your improper testing method actually aggravated the improperly installed bracket on the unenforced panel.

    Sorry for being so hard on you about this but this is a good learning lesson for other inspectors.

    Once the top panel is damaged you will most likely have to replace the entire door. The top panel is the important part of the door that takes most of the stress when the door is opened with an automatic opener. Call a garage door contractor to see what they can do for you and if they will cut you a deal.

    I have bought one garage door and parts for another in the past 17 years. My GL insurance paid for the door along with major damage to a customized Honda Goldwing that was crushed.... Thank goodness I had GL insurance.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    My GL insurance paid for the door along with major damage to a customized Honda Goldwing that was crushed.... Thank goodness I had GL insurance.
    Ouch! Stories like this prevent me from even opening the door if there's a vehicle parked inside. If the homeowner is home, I might ask him to demonstrate the door, or wait until he pulls out. Otherwise, I disclaim it, not worth the grief.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Before testing the auto reversing motor always check that the reinforcing brace is installed at the top of the steel door and always check for loose hardware. The brace is required by all door manufacturers and opener manufacturers if an automatic opener is installed. However, this piece is purchased separately and does not come with either the door or opener. The brace is shown at the top of the included picture.

    If you tested the auto reversing mechanism without the brace installed and / or loose / improper hardware and the door broke, you're responsible.



    MinnesotaHomeInspectors.com
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    A prime example of why we should not test the pressure reverse feature. Test the electric eyes and the balance of the door all day long.... Disclaim that you did not test this feature and go on with life, I do.
    I usually agree with what Scott P. says, however, in this case Scott is w-a-y off base in my opinion.

    Scott would be correct to chastise you for using your hand and not the approved and only recognized reversal test - the 2x4 on the floor and done correctly (many, if not most, HIs seem to not do this test correctly, and thus are afraid of this test).

    "Failed under testing" if how I have handled it in the past ... I cam up with that phrase after a garage door fell off the tracks.

    With regard to the garage door "operating properly" before it damaged ITSELF (you did NOT damage the door, it damaged ITSELF), if the door was "operating properly" prior to the test, the door would have have damaged itself.

    I do agree that the HI should look the door over first for things like damage to the top of the door where the operator connects to the door - it is not uncommon at all to find doors which do not have the required stiffener brace installed at that location and you will find many doors which are wrinkled/crinkled at that connection point. Me, I tested those doors anyway, but damage like that is reason enough to write the door up for repair without testing ANYTHING - if you are not going to test the entrapment avoidance systems - ALL of them - don't bother trying to fool your client by only testing the easy ones. You could create a false sense of 'the door operates properly' in the client because you, the professional, did not feel the need to test the auto-reverse feature.

    Either test the door or don't test the door, but don't do a half-arsed test by testing only the easy stuff. Crimeny.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Frankly, the "failed under testing" line is unnecessary, as the hardware was clearly deficient and should have been more closely inspected before you operated the opener. I'm betting you could have seen the 2 drywall screws holding the bracket to the door, along with previous damage to the area.

    Had you tested it using recognized industry protocols, you might be able to claim "failed under testing", but it appears some details were overlooked prior to your test.

    In my area, you can get a 16x7 metal door installed for $700-$900. Consider it "Continuing Education" costs.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    If it was damaged easily, my guess is that it's a newer thin paneled door. You may be able to just have the single panel replaced.....


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Everything works fine, until it doesn't. You were hired to test the door and by contract the owner agreed to allow you to test it. Unless it can be proved that you did something incorrecty, how can it's failure be your responsibility ? That said, a good faith effort to help can't hurt. Even small claims court will ultimately cost the players more than the repair.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Skoczylas View Post
    While testing the safety reverse on an automatic garage door opener, the bracket pulled out and bent the top panel of the door. Upon a closer look, it appears the door had been damaged in the past and the bracket poorly installed with (2) 1-1/4" drywall screws.
    The home owner says the door was working fine and that I owe him a new door.
    How would you handle this?
    I don't see anywhere in the OPs post that he was not testing the door pursuant to recognized standard procedures. So, without clarification of the method used it is inappropriate to lay blame or hold him fully accountable for the damage caused. Certainly close examination of the door prior to operation would/should have identified potential problems but he did what most of us would do (absent any other indication that the door would not operate normally) he operated the door. If the door's broke before actually reversing or failed to reverse, that aspect of the door still failed under testing.

    In a good faith response and without admitting liability, I would maybe offer perhaps 50% toward cost of repairs, cut a check and hope he cashes it. If still not satisfied, let the homeowner take him to small claims for the balance but I hope he has good documentation, photos and used standard operating procedures to support his case. In a court case the primary issue will be the method used in testing. If not conforming to industry and manufacturers standards then expect the worse. It really doesn't matter what the condition of the door was prior to testing if the deficiency which caused the buckling was not noted or observed and the test was conducted without that knowledge. The observations afterward will help in mitigation (reduce the liability) to some extent but the total value of his liability will hinge on the method of testing used. If he used an appropriate testing method then he is on relatively solid legal ground but an award could still go against him in small claims.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    If the door was tested using a method that is not "approved", then the damage was caused by the inspector IMHO.
    If I saw something wrong with the door hardware I probably wouldn't have tested it at all (not take the risk of it "failing under test".
    Before I test a garage door, I always look to see if it's locked, then I check out the hardware, then I check the balance. Only after doing those things do I operate the opener.
    I think Chris owes the guy a door repair.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Skoczylas View Post
    While testing the safety reverse on an automatic garage door opener, the bracket pulled out and bent the top panel of the door. Upon a closer look, it appears the door had been damaged in the past and the bracket poorly installed with (2) 1-1/4" drywall screws.
    The home owner says the door was working fine and that I owe him a new door.
    How would you handle this?
    Chris,
    My short answer is that you owe nothing relating to the failure of the door to function and the subsequent damage resulting from operation and testing. Based on your OP.

    Scott,
    Chris does not say how he tested the door (hand, 2x4,dog or child ) and the sequencing of the doors inspection. Nor is there any mention of any signs posted to not operate the door or relating to any of its functions.

    In general,
    The method of testing the reverse function may have a minor role in the failure. Whether it is tested at 1 inch, 1 1/2 inches or at 36 inches from floor the reverse should function.

    If you want to rely on the manufactures manual of installation and operation you head off into two different topics. One is the door and the other is the opener. Both will have something to say on installation, maintenance and testing.

    The inspection of the door and its installation should have noted that the method was not according to any manufactures requirements if only referring to the drywall screws observed. The fact that there may have been prior damage to the door does not put its present failure on the shoulders of the person operating/testing the door.

    If the door was locked, blocked or obviously inoperable without potential damage, then it should not have operated or tested. But that was not in the OP.

    Just because door operated before it failed only means that it did not fail on that operation and nothing else. Inspecting and testing the door and its operator is in all owners manuals and is the responsibility of the owner that maintenance and inspection is performed on a regular basis. So the responsibility is on the owner for the failure not the HI.

    "Failed under operation" may be a better way to state what happened since the reverse function is part of all current operators normal design and operation. Since the HI was only operating all of the functions of the door's designed operations.

    States with Lic. usually state inspections in terms of operating so "operation" is what is being attempted with the garage door. Possibly semantics but that is what the English language is all about.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    If you offer anything to the owner you make your self responsible for the entire failure.

    If you caused it to fail then replace it.

    If you did not cause it to fail, do not make an offer of appeasement. Black or white with no gray area. Your are either responsible or not. You are not responsible for the owners actions.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Upon a closer look, it appears the door had been damaged in the past and the bracket poorly installed with (2) 1-1/4" drywall screws.
    1. Damaged in the past.
    2. Repaired due to previous damage.
    3. Repaired with inappropriate materials, most likely not recommended by manufacturer.
    4. Non professional repair - most certainly homeowner.
    5. Previous damage has left the door/mounting hardware weakened and unable to withstand downward force. This alone could compromise built in safety feature(s).


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    My bad for assuming that Chris used his hand to hold the door during testing. Chris, sorry for assuming this....

    The door based on the information provided should not have been tested.

    Chris, let us know how you tested the door and the outcome.

    Don't worry about folks coming down hard on you, it is for your own good and for others to learn from. By having the intestinal fortitude to post like you have done is helping many others.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Personally I think you are out of your mind to use the 2x4 method on a garage door unless you know the test requirements for the door you are going to test. If I did what you say here I would have replaced at least a 1/4 of the doors that did not reverse correctly.
    Search the archives here for some of the longest threads in history pertaining to the testing or operation of garage doors.
    Then choose a side and carry on.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Personally I think you are out of your mind to use the 2x4 method on a garage door unless you know the test requirements for the door you are going to test. If I did what you say here I would have replaced at least a 1/4 of the doors that did not reverse correctly.
    Sounds like someone does NOT know how to test garage doors with the 2x4, which is the recognized method for testing the auto-reverse mechanism.

    If you knew how to test with the 2x4 and did the test that way, the door *would not be damaged* by the test. It really is that plain and simple.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    "That being said of course the Manufacturers wants you to wreck the door."
    You are kidding I hope.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Jerry I used to test them with my Steel toed boots but did not feel comfortable after so many would not reverse when met with resistance. One damaged door was enough to convince me this is not the way to do it. I would think that a fight would be in the works on this one as John has pointed out.
    That being said of course the Manufacturers wants you to wreck the door.
    Like I said before: "Sounds like someone does NOT know how to test garage doors with the 2x4, which is the recognized method for testing the auto-reverse mechanism."

    Testing with steel toe shoe is not an approved method and only shows the lack of knowledge and understanding of proper testing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Old ones don't and do not reverse. Those are the doors that will get busted if you did use the 2x4 method.
    I've tested hundreds of old doors which did not reverse, never intended to reverse, as well as hundreds of doors which were intended to reverse but did not.

    If the 2x4 test is done properly the door will not be damaged if it does not reverse. Also, I've only had one track partially come apart where the sections were bolted together, one bolt was loose and fell out, fortunately, though, the other bolt held.

    As has been said, make a good visual of the door first before testing, but if the 2x4 test is done correctly it will not damage the door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Personally I think you are out of your mind to use the 2x4 method on a garage door unless you know the test requirements for the door you are going to test. If I did what you say here I would have replaced at least a 1/4 of the doors that did not reverse correctly.
    I don't think I posted anything about testing with a 2x4 even though that is the proper method.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    If you offer anything to the owner you make your self responsible for the entire failure.

    If you caused it to fail then replace it.

    If you did not cause it to fail, do not make an offer of appeasement. Black or white with no gray area. Your are either responsible or not. You are not responsible for the owners actions.
    ]

    Garry
    Legally, a good faith offer made without admitting, assuming or accepting liability does not make the offeror responsible for the entire damage or culpable in any way. It is just that, an offer made in good faith in an attempt to resolve a dispute. That kind of agreement is made all the time in all aspects of law, both civil and criminal. The GF offer is an attempt to avoid potentially costly legal proceedings, whereby even if the respondent (the OP in this case) is on firm legal footing, an award for damages could still go against him. It's a roll of the dice either way. Do nothing and hope the homeowner goes away. Do nothing and wait for the summons and subsequent court case (another roll) or take remedial action up front at some cost (yet again another roll - but IMO, better odds).


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I stopped testing with physical resistance a few years ago after one of our guys did a similar thing as the OP. I guess we were lucky it was just the bracket that failed and not the door. I think it was around $80 (wow, garage door guys work cheap!).

    Our state SOPs changed a few years ago and just require testing the photo-optic sensors. I believe we're close to 20 years since the optic sensors have been required. Any opener w/o them is past its life expectancy and is a safety hazard according to some authority I remember (CPSC?) and I write it up as such.

    I was testing an opener and going through my normal spiel about the safety features a couple years ago and the buyer got a bit white in the face... he told me his neighbor's kid got killed by a door opener at the house he was moving out of. More than anything that has changed the way I think about openers. I have 3 small children also and it's easy to see how an accident could happen. I'd rather not count on my child having the resistance of a 2X4 to survive.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I was just doing some searching too see what publications say about testing garage doors and ran across this CPSC article: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/523.pdf It seems to say that if the garage door reverses with electric eye that is sufficient. In that case you would not need to test for pressure reversing (physical resistance). Is this right?

    Last edited by Tom Rees; 07-20-2012 at 07:02 AM.
    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    As has been said, make a good visual of the door first before testing, but if the 2x4 test is done correctly it will not damage the door.

    I wouldn't make such a sweeping generalization like that, Jerry.

    A defective opener could easily apply too much force while closing upon a properly placed 2x4, and cause damage to a properly installed and functional overhead door instead of reversing as designed.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Federal Regulations define the tests. Every opener manufacturer includes testing information and recommends that the door be tested and adjusted every month or two. The only prescribed test is with a 1" board placed on the floor under the middle of the door. A 2x4 may be used in place of a 1" board (stated).

    I have a block of oak cut 6 inches long, 1"x1.5" that I can carry in my tool bag. The 6 inch length placed in front of the IR beam is a clear indicator in a picture when the transponders are placed too high off the floor and I consider the floor to be where the door closes.I may change that to 12" long with a band marked at 6 inches.

    Looking at the door before testing is best along with checking the balance on the springs. If you test the auto-reverse, holding with your hand is NOT a prescribed method nor would it be an acceptable defense if you ended up in a courtroom. If you inspect and test the door in accordance with the Federal regulations and therefore the manufacturer's instructions, you cannot, oh ok, should not, be held liable for damages to a properly installed and undamaged door installation.

    Want to pay for the door or repair? That's up to you.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  27. #27
    Garry Blankenship's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    While training w/ another H.I. we were at a four stall garage. Stall # 3 had a vintage Corvette, ( 58 I think ~ georgous ), and the Sr. inspector said we are not testing that one. You will not find that in any training manuals or SOPs, but I think he made the right call. If the owner was there & willing to move it, OK.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Blankenship View Post
    While training w/ another H.I. we were at a four stall garage. Stall # 3 had a vintage Corvette, ( 58 I think ~ georgous ), and the Sr. inspector said we are not testing that one. You will not find that in any training manuals or SOPs, but I think he made the right call. If the owner was there & willing to move it, OK.
    Yeah, cars in the garage can make you think. I once had a Corvette parked under a garage attic access hatch. The ceiling was 10-11 feet high. No way I was trying to remove that hatch cover using the end of a ladder.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Once again all very good comments and personal feelings about this subject. It comes up often and is always good for intertaining back and forth banter. However, testing the auto reverse of any garage door must take into account so many factors and many were just discussed above.

    How about this: The manufacturer of the door and the opener are normally different. How does one know if the motor is compatible with the door? Meaning, take an older high horse powered door opener and connect it your run-of-the-mill cheap AL door that if you looked at it crossways it would bend. Many of these are home owner installed and probably not set properly and never tested...till the HI comes along and sticks his hand, shoe, roll of TP, 2x4, 1X materaial, whatever and it fails, the door bows like a reed in the wind. You broke it! What are we as HIs to do when we look at and test garage doors and all its components? Does the type of door match the opener in place? Are all the support brackets, braces in place, all bolts tight, rails not ready to fall off, well secured where needed, torque springs or coils springs in good condition and not broken ect..my God, it's a wonder we even test these things at all.

    There are few garage doors I encounter that are in visibly good condition (unless new), there is always something out of place, loose, already damaged (mostly AL doors), openers that are unplugged (and why). I spend a lot of time inspecting the door before I ever think about pushing the opener button...and there's not a chance in he...ll that I would use 2x4 or block of wood to test the auto reverse function on any cheap AL door, a wood door, yes. Opening a garage door via the emergency release method most times tells me all I need to know about the condition of a garage door and I make my decision to do any further testing based on how it opens manually.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    I'd rather not count on my child having the resistance of a 2X4 to survive.
    That's an all too common misconception home inspectors have of how to test a garage door, with or without a 2x4. And this has been said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over ... (whew, enough already) ... and over again time after time by myself and others - yet some apparently *ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION* to what is being said:
    - 1) The garage door *is not* supposed to reverse on pressure on the 2x4 and you do not measure the pressure the garage door exerts before it reverses.
    - 2) The garage door *is* supposed to reverse ... ON CONTACT WITH ... yes, that is correct, ON CONTACT WITH ... the 2x4.

    If you stand there watching the door operator force the door downward while the track arches upward and then, finally, the door reverses ... THE AUTO REVERSE FAILED.

    If you place the 2x4 *where the 2x4 is supposed to be placed* and the door makes contact with the 2x4 ... the door is supposed to reverse, right then and right there.

    So many home inspectors think that the door is supposed to partially crush the 2x4 before the door reverses and that there is no way they would want "my child having the resistance of a 2X4 to survive" ... DUH!

    "ON CONTACT WITH"

    Why don't you guys understand that and get that? It IS that easy.

    As I've stated in posts above: "Sounds like someone does NOT know how to test garage doors with the 2x4, which is the recognized method for testing the auto-reverse mechanism."

    The 2x4 test really is not that difficult to understand.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 07-20-2012 at 04:48 PM. Reason: 'without without' should have been 'with or without'
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    What Jerry said.......


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    You will find no testing method that says this is how you test the reversing feature.
    Here is one: http://www.gatestore.com/garage_door...f/CLM-3265.pdf

    1. Test the DOWN (close) force
    • Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway
    through DOWN (close) travel. The door should reverse.
    Reversal halfway through down travel does not
    guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction. See
    Adjustment Step 3, page 25



    The first step is to realize that there are several safety features, not just the entrapment test and sensors.

    If you only test the sensors and the 2x4 test entrapment-reversal test you have missed one other important test, its called the force reverse.
    You can not check the force reverse safety feature with a 2x4!

    The force reverse system is not active during the last few inches of down travel! The last few inches are in the anti-entrapment zone which is the only thing you can check with the 2x4.


    Here is another source that shows this:
    DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association

    Last edited by Bruce King; 07-21-2012 at 08:15 PM.
    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I would expect nothing less from a CMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Here is one: http://www.gatestore.com/garage_door...f/CLM-3265.pdf

    1. Test the DOWN (close) force
    • Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway
    through DOWN (close) travel. The door should reverse.
    Reversal halfway through down travel does not
    guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction. See
    Adjustment Step 3, page 25
    We've been here before, and through this before, but ... okay, now let's go for the of what that is doing, testing, and part of.

    #1. It IS NOT PART OF the automatic reversal test, and in fact it even says "Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction"

    #2. Putting that back IN CONTEXT of what it was taken from:
    - ADJUSTMENT STEP 3
    - - Test the Safety Reversal System
    - - - (Yep, that is during installation and adjustment of the door.)
    - - - TEST
    - - - - • With the door fully open, place a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board (or a 2x4 laid flat) on the floor, centered under the garage door.
    - - - - • Operate the door in the down direction. The door must reverse on striking the obstruction.
    - - - ADJUST
    - - - - • If the door stops on the obstruction, it is not traveling far enough in the down direction. Increase the DOWN limit by turning the DOWN limit adjustment screw counterclockwise 1/4 turn.
    - - - - - NOTE: On a sectional door, make sure limit adjustments do not force the door arm beyond a straight up and down position. See the illustration on page 21.
    - - - - • Repeat the test.
    - - - - • When the door reverses on the 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board, remove the obstruction and run the opener through 3 or 4 complete travel cycles to test adjustment.
    - - - - • If the unit continues to fail the Safety Reverse Test, call for a trained door systems technician.

    Okay, so THAT ACTUALLY SAYS TO TEST ON THE 2X4 ... so, Bruce and Kevin, the hand holding and steel toe shoes are all up your butt made up things and the STATED AND APPROVED TEST ... get that? ... TEST ... the test is on the 2x4 (a 1-1/2" board, so, yeah, it could be a 2x12, but ... it *says* "(or a 2x4 laid flat)".

    Some home inspectors will go to extreme lengths to try to worm out of testing the door PROPERLY on the 2x4.

    Either test the door properly on the 2x4 or simply state that you do not test the auto reverse. If you try to stretch your wording beyond that to 'explain why' you do not test, say with something like you 'do not test the auto reverse because the door could be damaged', you are admitting that the door IS MOST LIKELY NOT operating properly .. and that means YOU SHOULD TEST the door. If you feel the door is operating properly and you simply do not want to test the door ... then you should not be waffling to make it sound like there may be a problem with the door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I would expect nothing less from a CMI.



    We've been here before, and through this before, but ... okay, now let's go for the of what that is doing, testing, and part of.

    #1. It IS NOT PART OF the automatic reversal test, and in fact it even says "Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction"

    #2. Putting that back IN CONTEXT of what it was taken from:
    - ADJUSTMENT STEP 3
    - - Test the Safety Reversal System
    - - - (Yep, that is during installation and adjustment of the door.)
    - - - TEST
    - - - - • With the door fully open, place a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board (or a 2x4 laid flat) on the floor, centered under the garage door.
    - - - - • Operate the door in the down direction. The door must reverse on striking the obstruction.
    - - - ADJUST
    - - - - • If the door stops on the obstruction, it is not traveling far enough in the down direction. Increase the DOWN limit by turning the DOWN limit adjustment screw counterclockwise 1/4 turn.
    - - - - - NOTE: On a sectional door, make sure limit adjustments do not force the door arm beyond a straight up and down position. See the illustration on page 21.
    - - - - • Repeat the test.
    - - - - • When the door reverses on the 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board, remove the obstruction and run the opener through 3 or 4 complete travel cycles to test adjustment.
    - - - - • If the unit continues to fail the Safety Reverse Test, call for a trained door systems technician.

    Okay, so THAT ACTUALLY SAYS TO TEST ON THE 2X4 ... so, Bruce and Kevin, the hand holding and steel toe shoes are all up your butt made up things and the STATED AND APPROVED TEST ... get that? ... TEST ... the test is on the 2x4 (a 1-1/2" board, so, yeah, it could be a 2x12, but ... it *says* "(or a 2x4 laid flat)".

    Some home inspectors will go to extreme lengths to try to worm out of testing the door PROPERLY on the 2x4.

    Either test the door properly on the 2x4 or simply state that you do not test the auto reverse. If you try to stretch your wording beyond that to 'explain why' you do not test, say with something like you 'do not test the auto reverse because the door could be damaged', you are admitting that the door IS MOST LIKELY NOT operating properly .. and that means YOU SHOULD TEST the door. If you feel the door is operating properly and you simply do not want to test the door ... then you should not be waffling to make it sound like there may be a problem with the door.

    Not sure what you are all worked up about Jerry. I simply added more technical information that you and Scott did not know. (expert witness huh?)

    I posted the entire story, you are stuck on the entrapment test, which is fine but now you know more about the other test that is also important and actually required by NC and done by those that truly understand the design, operation and full testing of automatic garage door openers.

    For those that are actually inspecting and know what is usually wrong with these doors, its the force reverse adjustment that is setup incorrectly by the professional installers. They do this to prevent call backs due to rough spots in the track. This adjustment is easily accessible on many units which tends to cause them to get maladjusted too. The other test, the one you know about because Jerry only checks and talks about that one, the 2x4 entrapment test is "built in" once the door travel is setup properly and not adjustable once the initial setup is done. Feel free to follow Jerry's advice with the 2x4 but never ever think you have finished the testing with that simple (non CMI) process. LMAO

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    This is a very good thread on garage door openers, I recommend that everyone read it.

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tractor-2.html

    Below are two post from the thread I feel are important


    I certainly think every person here has plenty of common sense.

    Home inspectors, as a group, are accustomed to having their opinions challenged and criticized, by trades people, sellers, and agents.
    Almost everyone here has heard a trades person or agent say, “ He doesn’t know what he’s talking about”. The HI cannot allow the criticism to alter his opinion.
    However, the HI cannot become so entrenched that he is unwilling to examine himself and his methods.
    It does not surprise me that some are reluctant to accept using a 2x4. Years of hearing inspector folklore and rumors of disaster have them understandable skeptical.
    Only by trust in the words of a few and accepting the validity of written instructions, are they willing to do what they have feared.

    Understanding takes trust
    Trust takes change
    Change takes time


    This inspector was opposed to using a 2x4 for testing, however he did try it and was pleased with the results.
    I hope each of you have the courage and understanding to overcome your fears and try it also.

    Crap happens in this business. Honestly, things break when we are doing inspections. I have had a main water shutoff break off and start trying to convert the crawlspace to a trout pond. I have had several windows fall out when I tried to open them. I had a furnace catch debris in the ducts on fire (the fire department said it was a good thing that I was the one this happened to because I shut the furnace down properly, but I sure didn't feel like it was such a good thing) I have never had to fill out an insurance form or even offer any more explanation than "component failed under normal use or industry accepted testing." C'mon guys, this is a business where we are suppose to find failing or problem components to protect our clients. To do that, we have to risk breaking things.

    I had quit using the wood block because of one problem door some 14 years ago. In the four days that I have once again been using a wood block, I have had two doors pass the hand test and flunk the block test. (Second one today) Neither door buckled, they just locked the block down.

    Since, the wood block test is an industry recognized and approved test, in worst case scenarios, I think you could find yourself doing more "splainin" about why you didn't use it than why you broke a door using it.

    This thread morphed into something very interesting about our business and the way we conduct it. Jerry noted situations where he won't use the block test. I concur. Similarly, I will never test AFCI breakers in an occupied house, which I rarely see these days. As we become more experienced, we have to recognize when and when not to risk breaking something. But guys, if your risk threshold is too low, I don't know how you can effectively do this business.

    Of course, that is very subjective and one good thing revealed in threads like this, is how much thought so many inspectors put into the way they conduct their business.


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  36. #36
    Chris Skoczylas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Well, it's about 50/50 on buying a new door or that it failed during testing. I told the owner that it failed during testing and that I wasn't going to buy him a new door. I haven't heard anything since.
    According to my state Standards of Professional Practice, " The inspector shall report whether or not any garage door operator will automatically reverse or stop when meeting reasonable resistance during closing."
    The door failed during testing.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Skoczylas View Post
    Well, it's about 50/50 on buying a new door or that it failed during testing. I told the owner that it failed during testing and that I wasn't going to buy him a new door. I haven't heard anything since.
    According to my state Standards of Professional Practice, " The inspector shall report whether or not any garage door operator will automatically reverse or stop when meeting reasonable resistance during closing."
    The door failed during testing.
    Chris
    Thanks for posting and please keep us updated.

    I would also send the HO a written response, such as;

    Dear Home Owner
    I regret the garage door was damaged and understand your concerns.
    However, I did not cause the damage. The damage was caused by improper maintenance.
    The garage door sustained damaged during normal operation and testing methods. Had the garage door been maintained in normal operating condition, no damage would have occurred.
    Operation and testing methods used, were in accordance with state requirements, Federal Government safety standards, manufacturers instructions, and industry standards.
    Home buyers having a home inspection performed have every reason to expect the inspection to include operation and testing of the garage door and related safety features. Would you expect less from an inspection on a home you are about to purchase?
    Thank you

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    After replacing 3 garage doors and openers in the past FROM testing with a 2x4 as most people have stated here, I learned NOT to test garage door openers, I simply disclaimed why in my reports and attempted to explain what it is suppose to do! I told them I would test if home owner approved.

    I say pay the man & manup!

    Retired Home Inpsector after 24 years.


    (my opinion) if it counts


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Chris
    Thanks for posting and please keep us updated.

    I would also send the HO a written response, such as;

    Dear Home Owner
    I regret the garage door was damaged and understand your concerns.
    However, I did not cause the damage. The damage was caused by improper maintenance.
    The garage door sustained damaged during normal operation and testing methods. Had the garage door been maintained in normal operating condition, no damage would have occurred.
    Operation and testing methods used, were in accordance with state requirements, Federal Government safety standards, manufacturers instructions, and industry standards.
    Home buyers having a home inspection performed have every reason to expect the inspection to include operation and testing of the garage door and related safety features. Would you expect less from an inspection on a home you are about to purchase?
    Thank you
    Nice thought Rick.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Before employing a 2x4 reversing test you're supposed to inspect the door system, check the operation using the emergency release, perform the force setting test, perform the balancing test, amongst other steps, all necessary before putting a 2x4 under the door and to SAFELY perform the auto reversing test from the floor.


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Before employing a 2x4 reversing test you're supposed to inspect the door system, check the operation using the emergency release, perform the force setting test, perform the balancing test, amongst other steps, all necessary before putting a 2x4 under the door and to SAFELY perform the auto reversing test from the floor.

    Very nice simple summary HG, thanks.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Not sure what you are all worked up about Jerry. I simply added more technical information that you and Scott did not know. (expert witness huh?)
    You added information we already did know.

    You added information which has already been discussed at length here.

    You added information which, according to you, shows how to test for auto reversing (that was and is the discussion), yet the information itself states that it is not a test for auto reversing, in fact, that information states that reversing at the described location with one's hand:
    - #1. It IS NOT PART OF the automatic reversal test, and in fact it even says "Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction".

    Bruce, not sure what you do not understand about the information you provided, information which you purported as being information which shows another test method for testing the auto reverse feature - yet the information itself says "does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction".

    So, Bruce, what is it that you do not understand about the information you provided?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Before employing a 2x4 reversing test you're supposed to inspect the door system, check the operation using the emergency release, perform the force setting test, perform the balancing test, amongst other steps, all necessary before putting a 2x4 under the door and to SAFELY perform the auto reversing test from the floor.
    To bad that's not what it says.

    It says that, during installation, you do the force test, which it also says does not guarantee that the door will reverse on contact with the 1-1/2" wood block.

    It does not say to do the force test whenever the auto reverse feature is tested, just at the time of installation, or at the time of any re-adjustments being made to the door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    You added information we already did know.

    You added information which has already been discussed at length here.

    You added information which, according to you, shows how to test for auto reversing (that was and is the discussion), yet the information itself states that it is not a test for auto reversing, in fact, that information states that reversing at the described location with one's hand:
    - #1. It IS NOT PART OF the automatic reversal test, and in fact it even says "Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction".

    Bruce, not sure what you do not understand about the information you provided, information which you purported as being information which shows another test method for testing the auto reverse feature - yet the information itself says "does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction".

    So, Bruce, what is it that you do not understand about the information you provided?
    I have always understood the entire testing methods. I am trying to get everyone to understand that there is much more to it than placing a 2x4 under the door.

    The main issue with all of these opener threads is a mixup between the two tests, many did not even know that the "hand test" was important and included in some documents, and you always talk mainly about the anti-entrapment reversal test.

    So here it is again if you did not understand it before:

    You can not check the force reverse safety feature with a 2x4!

    The force reverse system is not active during the last few inches of down travel! The last few inches are in the anti-entrapment zone which is the only thing you can check with the 2x4.


    I think everyone gets it now but different inspection methods will exist due to SOP's and risk factors with damaging doors.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    I have always understood the entire testing methods. I am trying to get everyone to understand that there is much more to it than placing a 2x4 under the door.
    And we have said that very same thing time and time again.

    The main issue with all of these opener threads is a mixup between the two tests, many did not even know that the "hand test" was important and included in some documents, and you always talk mainly about the anti-entrapment reversal test.
    Because the force test (hand test as you call it) is part of the installation of the door and adjusting it procedure. The force test is not a necessary test to do when inspecting a garage door as the auto reverse test, if done properly and if it reverses properly, covers the *force test* by reversing properly.

    What you do not understand, and are trying to confuse others into your own realm of bewilderment, is that the auto reverse test, when done properly *WILL* tell you if the "force" is set to an acceptable level. Those who DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO DO A AUTO REVERSE TEST keep trying to insist that there are alternatives, there are not, or that a force test needs to be done, it does not.

    Do you realize and understand that, when installing an overhead door or adjusting one during maintenance of the door, that the force test is done BEFORE the auto reverse test, and then, when the auto reverse test is done, if the door does not reverse *ON CONTACT* with the 1-1/2" wood, that the "force" adjustments are RE-ADJUSTED, NOT FOR FORCE, BUT FOR AUTO REVERSING PROPERLY. Thus the so-called "force test" is not out of whack with what was set during the "force test"?

    The purpose of the "force test" is not to test the garage door for force, the purpose of the "force test" is to find a preliminary setting to serve as a starting point for re-adjusting the force for a proper reversing on contact during the auto reverse test.

    Thus, when the door *does not* reverse on contact with the 1-1/2" block of wood, the "force" is - DUH! - set to high, and is re-adjusted as necessary, not to a "force" setting, but to a setting which allows the door to reverse on contact with the wood block.

    And, when the door *does* reverse on contact with the 1-1/2" block of wood, the "force is - again DUH! - set where it should be.

    Thus, the "force test" is done during installation and maintenance, and the "correct amount of force is NOT set during the *force test*, but during the *auto reverse* test to make sure the door auto reverse on contact with the wood block".

    Understand what is happening and why?

    So here it is again if you did not understand it before:

    You can not check the force reverse safety feature with a 2x4!
    Here it is again if you did not understand it before:

    You CAN AND DO check the force reverse safety feature with a 2x4!

    *IF* the door auto reverses on contact with the 2x4 ... drum roll ... THE FORCE IS SET PROPERLY, but if the door does not reverse on contact with the 2x4 ... drum roll ... THE FORCE IS SET IMPROPERLY!

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Jerry,

    Would you assume the force needed to stop and reverse at two or three feet off the floor is acceptable (10-12lbs) if you saw the door contact a 2x4 and reverse quickly with little bow in the opener track? yes or no

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I have paid for a few things over the years including replacing a furnace that I just blew it on. (But my furnace inspections improved tremendously after that). Here and there over the years, I have reimbursed a few inspection fees over some issues where I didn't have any liability, but it was a strategic diplomatic move to keep a regular real estate agent happy.

    BUT, if something breaks during the course of normal use or testing, then it failed and that's it........period. You owe the seller an explanation of how it happened, but not even an apology is needed.

    Somewhere, sometime, one of us is going to get "that" call from a past customer who just had their prize $5000 pickypoodleshnoozer get crushed under the garage door and their attorney wants to know if we did the "approved" block test. Will a disclaimer save you if you didn't do it?

    Hey, it could it happen to me too, cuz I won't test the door with a car or other valuables in the crash zone should the door come down. Even though I wouldn't have any liability or pay for some guy's car, I just draw a line there. It probably isn't a legally defensible line and after this discussion, I am going to reconsider block testing every door.

    So, Chris, I am dismayed that some experienced inspectors here, think that you should pay the seller for that door.

    Holy cow! Do you guys pay for everything that breaks under normal testing? Sheesh....... Someone said his insurance paid for a door and damage.....Too bad that the insurance company settled. You shouldn't have had any liability. No wonder HI insurance is so stinkin' expensive.

    Vent over............and I am out.


  48. #48
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Jerry,

    Would you assume the force needed to stop and reverse at two or three feet off the floor is acceptable (10-12lbs) if you saw the door contact a 2x4 and reverse quickly with little bow in the opener track? yes or no
    Bruce,

    *I* would make *NO SUCH ASSUMPTIONS*. Does that count as my no?

    *I* don't care how much friggin' force is being applied at two or three feet off the floor!

    *I* DO care if the friggin' overhead door automatically reverses *ON CONTACT* with the wood block, because if the door automatically reverses *ON CONTACT* with the wood block ... the force is properly set.

    The following is from the linked document *YOU* provided:
    - ADJUSTMENT STEP 3
    - - Test the Safety Reversal System
    - - - TEST
    - - - - • With the door fully open, place a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board (or a 2x4 laid flat) on the floor, centered under the garage door.
    - - - - • Operate the door in the down direction. The door must reverse on striking the obstruction.
    - - - ADJUST
    - - - - • If the door stops on the obstruction, it is not traveling far enough in the down direction. Increase the DOWN limit by turning the DOWN limit adjustment screw counterclockwise 1/4 turn.
    - - - - NOTE: On a sectional door, make sure limit adjustments do not force the door arm beyond a straight up and down position. See the illustration on page 21.
    - - - - • Repeat the test.
    - - - - • When the door reverses on the 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) board, remove the obstruction and run the opener through 3 or 4 complete travel cycles to test adjustment.
    - - - - • If the unit continues to fail the Safety Reverse Test, call for a trained door systems technician.
    - - - IMPORTANT SAFETY CHECK:
    - - - - Test the Safety Reverse System after:
    - - - - - • Each adjustment of door arm length, limits, or force controls.
    - - - - - • Any repair to or adjustment of the garage door (including springs and hardware).
    - - - - - • Any repair to or buckling of the garage floor.
    - - - - - • Any repair to or adjustment of the opener.

    Also from that linked to document that *YOU* provided:
    - Page 26
    - - IMPORTANT SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS
    - - - WARNING
    - - - - To reduce the risk of SEVERE INJURY or DEATH:
    - - - - - 10. After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested.
    - - - - - 11. Safety reversal system MUST be tested every month.
    - - - - - - Garage door MUST reverse on contact with 1-1/2" high (3.8 cm) high object (or a 2x4 laid flat) on the floor.

    Now, I admit that I may be missing it, but I do not see anything about testing the force in those important safety instructions ... ????

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    ...
    BUT, if something breaks during the course of normal use or testing, then it failed and that's it........period. You owe the seller an explanation of how it happened, but not even an apology is needed.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    ...I won't test the door with a car or other valuables in the crash zone should the door come down. Even though I wouldn't have any liability or pay for some guy's car, I just draw a line there
    .
    I do not move furniture, empty out cabinets or closets, and I also don't move cars. I don't think I have a responsibility to do so, nor do I think I have a liability for not doing so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon Henderson View Post
    So, Chris, I am dismayed that some experienced inspectors here, think that you should pay the seller for that door.
    The people (note, I did not say home inspectors) who think that, are also the ones that do not test the garage door opener using the correct method.
    They call themselves inspectors but when there is a tough decision to make they decide that the risk of doing what an inspector was hired to do, paid to do, and expected to do, is not something they are willing to do.
    They come up with any excuse that conveniently gives them a way out.
    When any of you non garage door opener inspectors get a phone call from a prospective client, do you tell them, "I don't inspect garage doors." or do you happily accept the job then disclaim the garage door in the report?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Here it is in the DASMA door maintenance link I posted:
    DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association

    "Take a few minutes to inspect and test your complete garage door system. Make monthly inspection and testing a part of your regular routine..."

    "Force Setting Test
    Test the force setting of your garage door opener by holding the bottom of the door as it closes. If the door does not reverse readily, the force setting may be excessive and need adjusting. See your owner’s manual for details on how to make the adjustment."


    I can offer up some more insight and details on why both tests need to be done by either the inspector, the owner or the owners door contractor.

    1. Many of these doors are cheaply built, the opener attachment piece on the upper panel is often just epoxied in place with maybe a few small rivets so doing the 2x4 test before getting an actual feel for the actual force threshold is truly asking for a problem.


    2. Sometimes the opener is actually very well secured to the ceiling which prevents an accurate observation of the amount of "track bow" produced during the 2x4 test. Also, some tracks are more rigid than others.


    3. Sometimes the opener arm does not have the correct angle when the door is closed which can hide a high force condition with no telltale track bow.


    4. The firmware in these openers has proprietary logic, timing and thresholds that will differ and they will not release the software code to us.
    I can't find it now, but at one time, it was known that the last few inches of down travel ignored the force setting and had firmware to simply stop and reverse when the input from the optical shaft encoder indicated that the motor had stopped before the down limit switch was made. We are dealing with hundreds of brands, years and models here.


    5. The latest instructions say it has to reverse within 2 seconds. The force difference between .5 second and 2 seconds will be easily over 75 pounds.
    If you can "see", hear or imagine that the door is hitting the 2x4 too hard the force is way too high! You just can't truly tell the difference between 10-12 lb proper threshold and excessive force without using another testing method.


    6. Still not on board, then do this, adjust the force for a light reversal, yes, learn how to do this using your hands when the door is near the bottom. Now place a set of analog bathroom scales under it and watch the huge force spike! This force spike is normal since these openers are not designed to be perfect or ultra safe. The new idrive ones are much better, the force is actually mapped every inch and certified to reverse at 10-12 lbs.

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  51. #51
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Here it is in the DASMA door maintenance link I posted:
    DASMA Door and Access Systems Manufacturers Association
    And this is what it says: (Bruce, you keep digging the hole you are in deeper and deeper)
    - Reversal Test
    - - Make sure your opener has a reversing feature. If a reversing feature is not present, the opener should be replaced.
    - - Garage door openers manufactured after January 1, 1993, are required by federal law to have advanced safety features that comply with the latest UL (Underwriters Laboratories) 325 standards. Contact your manufacturer or installer for additional information.
    - - Test the reversing feature every month.
    - - - 1. First, test the balance of the door. If the door is properly balanced, then proceed.
    - - - 2. With the door fully open, place a 1-1/2" thick piece of wood (a 2" X 4" laid flat) on the floor in the center of the door.
    - - - 3. Push the transmitter or wall button to close the door. The door must reverse when it strikes the obstruction. (Note that the bottom part of "one-piece doors" must be rigid so that the door will not close, but will reverse when it contacts the obstruction.)
    - - - 4. If the door does not reverse, have it repaired or replaced. Have a qualified technician adjust, repair, or replace the opener or door.

    Question: Which test does it state to do every month?
    Answer: "Test the reversing feature every month."

    You keep trying to redirect this from the discussion of testing the auto reverse on a 2x4 to testing it for auto reverse with your hand, then try again to redirect this to testing for force, when the one and only test being discussed, and the one and only test being called for on a regular basis is: the reversing test.

    You keep posting links to documents which support what I, and others, are saying, and for that I thank you. I just cannot figure out why you are not reading what you link to before you link to it????

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  52. #52
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Its right there in that link, I put it below, again, please read it.

    "Take a few minutes to inspect and test your complete garage door system. Make monthly inspection and testing a part of your regular routine..."

    "Force Setting Test
    Test the force setting of your garage door opener by holding the bottom of the door as it closes. If the door does not reverse readily, the force setting may be excessive and need adjusting. See your owner’s manual for details on how to make the adjustment."


    Its right next to that little picture showing two people doing the force check on a door.
    The document's intent is for INSPECTION and maintenance, don't try to spin this one Jerry, you lost.

    Last edited by Bruce King; 07-22-2012 at 09:30 PM. Reason: added inspection to the last sentence since that might help jerry realize that it was there after all
    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  53. #53
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Question: Which test does it state to do every month?
    Answer: "Test the reversing feature every month."
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Its right there in that link, I put it below, again, please read it.

    "Take a few minutes to inspect and test your complete garage door system. Make monthly inspection and testing a part of your regular routine..."

    "Force Setting Test
    Test the force setting of your garage door opener by holding the bottom of the door as it closes. If the door does not reverse readily, the force setting may be excessive and need adjusting. See your owner’s manual for details on how to make the adjustment."
    You must be not only NOT reading the documents you are linking to, you must also be NOT reading my posts, or, perhaps, anyone else's posts for that matter.

    Title of this thread: "Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing."

    The discussion has been, and still is, about testing garage doors, and that test is the auto reverse test, and the documents you link too says that is the test to perform.

    Your keep trying to redirect the question to test performed during adjustment and maintenance of the door ... I must have missed it when you posted that you adjusted and performed maintenance on the overhead garage doors you should be inspecting ... I did not realize that you were using home inspections as a lead in to your garage overhead door maintenance business ... oh, wait, is it ethical to use home inspections as a lead in to a overhead garage door maintenance business?

    Home inspectors should be TESTING garage overhead doors ... NOT MAINTAINING AND ADJUSTING them.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  54. #54
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    You are getting psycho Jerry, really worried about you here.....
    Were you just really a minimal code inspector when you were being paid to inspect houses?


    Here is ANOTHER link to a credible site that SAYS TO CHECK THE FORCE MONTHLY!

    "Monthly force setting test (if your door is equipped with an automatic opener system). With the door fully open, push your garage door opener’s transmitter or wall button to close the door. As the door is closing, hold up the bottom of the door with your hands outstretched and stiff. If the door does not easily reverse and continues to close, pull your hands away immediately. The closing force is excessive and the door should be serviced by a trained service technician."


    Garage door maintenance checklist, tips, tests - garage door tests to keep your garage door system running properly

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

  55. #55
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    Novice Inspectors should not do this and they should follow the Garage manufacturer.
    Correct - they should not be testing force as force is not a test which is performed outside of maintenance and adjustment of the door, and, yes, "they should follow the Garage manufacturer" and they say to test the reversing feature by using the 2x4 test.

    Thank you, Kevin.

    Bruce and Kevin are so far out of whack on this that I will just have to let them post what they do, hoping that real home inspectors have read the different manufacturers' information that they themselves have linked to and recognize that the manufacturers specify performing the reversing test and that the manufacturers' reversing test is done on a 2x4.

    I have, hopefully, alerted all to Kevin's and Bruce's links and that those links state to perform the reversing test on a 2x4 ... I will now let Bruce and Kevin try to wow you with their musings on doing an unspecified and uncalled for test which has no relationship to the reversing test called for and which has been the subject of the thread and discussion.

    Kevin, Bruce, continue pontificating on this matter.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  56. #56
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    This is getting fun.........

    Here is another one that supports what I am saying:

    Tip: Look at item number 9 on this professional garage door inspector checklist

    HABPRO Garage Doors | Garage Door Installation Buford | Garage Door Repair Lawrenceville | Garage Door Repair Buford | Garage Doors Buford | Garage Doors Lawrenceville | 15-Point Service Checklist

    Bruce King, B.A. King Home Inspections, LLC
    www.BAKingHomeInspections.com
    Certified Master Inspector, Independent Inspectorwww.IndependentInspectors.org

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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    And exactly how many little kids' skulls have we prevented from being crushed by this discussion?


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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I hope the door is also going to reverse when it's closing and comes into contact with the car trunk, or roof, or hood... too.


  59. #59

    Red face Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    I would NEVER be able to get away with the "Failed During Test" defense. The realtors and the seller Always consider it to be my fault if the garage door gets bent.

    This usually happens with an older opener that also has been reinforced before with a 2 x 4 at the bracket and the thinnest door ever (the ones that I call a tin-foil door). When there is not an optical reverse, I almost think that there must be a pressure reverse. Even using a 2 x 4 under the door sometimes results in the top panel getting wrinkled.

    I have a local overhead door company on speed dial. It usually costs be about $80 - $90 to repair and that comes out of my inspection fee. It's a tragedy all around, but I must test the reverse, If it fails and causes damage that is my fault and I must repair it to stay in good standing with the realtors.

    This happens to me about once a year and I just consider it a business expense. All of those inspectors who say "Failed During Test" would have a business that "Failed By Methods" in my area.


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Both Jerry P. and Scott P. fail to realize that a "test" requires a series of steps be employed PRIOR to the operation of an OH garage Door with an obstruction in the path for it to be a LEGITIMATE test; and most importantly, if the system fails and those steps have not been strictly adhered to, it is neither legitimate "test", nor can the Inspector" claim resulting damage(s) is(are) due to "failure under 'testing'": they would be due to a failure of the Inspector to properly inspect and follow the steps necessary to actually "test" the entrapment reversal feature CORRECTLY AND SAFELY, according to the accepted manufacturer (both openers & OH garage doors) industry standards, CPSC directives, etc. and most likely would therefore be (contributory) negligent & liable.


  61. #61
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawrence Thomas View Post
    All of those inspectors who say "Failed During Test" would have a business that "Failed By Methods" in my area.
    You have to do what you have to do. There are differences between communities and what is considered "normal practices". We have our idiosyncrasies around here too.

    But H. G., I disagree with your interpretation of the liability. The problem with your interpretation is that it relies on what order you conduct an inspection of a door. Maybe in some states, there is a prescribed schedule for inspection of a garage system, but here, nothing like that exists. So, for states without a prescribed schedule, then who is to say what constitutes the correct procedures? It has been shown in this discussion that not even garage opener manufacturers agree on procedures for setup and inspection. While it is smart to inspect the entire door for problems before using the block test, it doesn't, in my barely humble opinion, increase your liability if you do the block test first. It is an important safety feature for the door to properly auto reverse regardless of other problems seen or not seen.

    From the evidence presented in this discussion, it appears that the block test is universal and required by the UL for their approval of door openers.

    This has been an informative discussion despite some of the "heat". Going forward, I am going to write a better disclaimer comment whenever I don't use the block test. I think I'll write something like "Due to loose hinges, or loose brackets, or damage to door or damage to railing, auto parked in garage, etc.(pick the issue), I was unable to perform the industry approved 2X4 block test. I recommend that the auto reverse feature of the door opener be tested using the block test once repairs are completed or the auto is out of the garage."

    Kinda wordy but you get the idea. Almost as wordy as this discussion over a three to five minute part of our overall inspection.


  62. #62
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Both Jerry P. and Scott P. fail to realize that a "test" requires a series of steps be employed PRIOR to the operation of an OH garage Door with an obstruction in the path for it to be a LEGITIMATE test; and most importantly, if the system fails and those steps have not been strictly adhered to, it is neither legitimate "test", nor can the Inspector" claim resulting damage(s) is(are) due to "failure under 'testing'": they would be due to a failure of the Inspector to properly inspect and follow the steps necessary to actually "test" the entrapment reversal feature CORRECTLY AND SAFELY, according to the accepted manufacturer (both openers & OH garage doors) industry standards, CPSC directives, etc. and most likely would therefore be (contributory) negligent & liable.
    NO BODY has said the only test is by using a 2x4
    NO BODY has said that a compleat inspection of the garage door not be done.
    It looks like everyone agrees that the door is to be inspected BEFORE using a 2x4. The point of discussion is some say not use a 2x4 during the test, and some say to use one.

    Ether you are just to lazy to actually read what has been written, to stupid to understand what has been written, or lying just to confuse the discussion and cause trouble.
    I don't think your to lazy to read, and I don't think your stupid. I do think that you would say almost anything to discredit someone (especially Jerry).
    It seems that you think that by discrediting someone else, it will make you look better. It does not.

    If I said something to offend you, get over it.

    BTW Scott said he DOES NOT use a 2x4

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    A prime example of why we should not test the pressure reverse feature. Test the electric eyes and the balance of the door all day long.... Disclaim that you did not test this feature and go on with life, I do.

    If the top panel did not have a support brace running across it then it was installed wrong. All door manufactures require a support brace on the top panel and then a properly attached bracket. If you did not see the brace you should not have tested the door. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    I don't think I posted anything about testing with a 2x4 even though that is the proper method.
    Jerry states that the door should be inspected BEFORE using a 2x4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ...
    I do agree that the HI should look the door over first ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    ...
    As has been said, make a good visual of the door first before testing, ...


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  63. #63
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce King View Post
    Jerry,

    Would you assume the force needed to stop and reverse at two or three feet off the floor is acceptable (10-12lbs) if you saw the door contact a 2x4 and reverse quickly with little bow in the opener track? yes or no

    Bruce,
    Knew someone would bring this question into the discussion. Pressure of the door contacting an obstruction. Back in April after an exhaustive exploration we found that there is no criteria dealing with the actual pressure required in any of the testing for entrapment.

    The reversal test using either a 1" or a 1.5" dimension can crush the life out of the obstruction and will pass the test if it reverses. If door bows like a banana and then reverses it meets the reversal test.


  64. #64
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Jerry,
    If we were in France we would not be flogging the dead horse, it would have been cut into steaks by now.

    Though in this area of a Home Inspection to many just do not understand what is going on with a garage door and its operator. Of all of the things which are observed, operated and tested it may be the item that offers the most potential hazard.

    So going back over it can not hurt and hopefully will aid in the understanding of testing methods used. So to resurrect the past thread:


    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tractor-2.html

    #165

    The original question of the post: "Is there a minimum / max pressure for the physical retracting mechanism, not the lower eye."

    There is an answer.

    Thinking there should be a specification in PSI to trigger reversal from obstruction contact, even though it may not be referenced to by manufactures in their installation, operation or maintenance manuals due to the equipment required perform such a test.

    After reviewing Underwriters Lab and Consumer Product Safety Commission and then consulting a Senior Project Engineer at UL this is the short answer. [ a little CYA ] (( all should look at the full texts in their original forms and not use the following as their final reference))))

    There is no PSI specification for doors without an edge sensor.
    The anti-entrapment standard for the door is one that requires the door to reverse after 2 seconds and retract a minimum of 2 inches. There is no min/max specification on the amount of force exerted during those 2 seconds.

    An operator using an edge sensor on the bottom of the door does require a pressure 15 lbs. or less to activate the sensor switch.


    The following is condensed and highlighted for the areas of interest in this topic area.

    Underwriters Laboratories ( UL )
    UL 325 Sec. 36
    36 Edge Sensors
    36.1 Normal operation test
    36.1.1 When installed on a representative residential door edge, an edge sensor shall actuate upon the application of a 15 lbf (66.7 N) or less force in the direction of the application. For an edge sensor intended to be used on a sectional door, the force is to be applied by the longitudinal edge of a 1-7/8 in (47.6 mm) diameter cylinder placed across the sensor so that the axis is perpendicular to plane of the door. For an edge sensor intended to be used on a one piece door, the force is to be applied so that the axis is at an angle 30 degrees from the direction perpendicular to the plane of the door. See Figure 36.1.
    36.1.1.1 When installed on a representative commercial door edge, an edge sensor shall actuate upon the application of a 15 lbf (66.7 N) or less force in the direction of the application. For an edge sensor intended to be used on a commercial door, the force is to be applied by the longitudinal edge of a 1-7/8 in (47.6 mm) diameter cylinder placed across the sensor so that the axis is perpendicular to plane of the door at a distance of 6 in (152.4 mm) from the fully closed position. See Figure 36.1.
    36.1.2 With respect to the test of 36.1.1 and 36.1.1.1, the test is to be repeated at various representative points of the edge sensor across the width of the door.

    Consumer Product Safety Commission

    PART 1211—SAFETY STANDARD FOR AUTOMATIC RESIDENTIAL GARAGE DOOR OPERATORS

    http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title16-vol2/pdf/CFR-2012-title16-vol2-part1211.pdf

    § 1211.7 Inherent entrapment protection requirements.
    (a)(1) Other than for the first 1 foot (305mm) of door travel from the full upmost position both with and without any external entrapment protection device functional, the operator of a downward moving residential garage door shall initiate reversal of the door within 2 seconds of contact with the obstruction as specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

    (b)(1) A solid object is to be placed on the floor of the test installation and at various heights under the edge of the door and located in line with the driving point of the operator. When tested on the floor, the object shall be 1 inch (25.4 mm) high. In the test installation, the bottom edge of the door under the driving force of the operator is to be against the floor when the door is fully closed.

    (2) For operators other than those attached to the door, a solid object is not required to be located in line with the driving point of the operator. The solid object is to be located at points at the center, and within 1 foot of each end of the door. ….

    (f)(1) An operator, using an inherent entrapment protection system that monitors the actual position of the door,…….. The entrapment protection system shall monitor the position of the door at increments not greater than 1 inch (25.4 mm). …..

    § 1211.8 Secondary entrapment protection requirements.
    (a) A secondary entrapment protection device supplied with, or as an accessory to, an operator shall consist of: (1) An external photoelectric sensor that when activated results in an operator that is closing a door to reverse direction of the door and the sensor prevents an operator from closing an open door,
    (2) An external edge sensor installed on the edge of the door that, when activated results in an operator that is closing a door to reverse direction of the door and the sensor prevents an operator from closing an open door,……..

    § 1211.9 Additional entrapment protection requirements.
    (a) A means to manually detach the door operator from the door shall be supplied. The gripping surface (handle) shall be colored red and shall be easily distinguishable from the rest of the operator. It shall be capable of being adjusted to a height of 6 feet (1.8 m) above the garage floor when the operator is installed according to the instructions specified in § 1211.14(a)(2). The means shall be constructed so that a hand firmly gripping it and applying a maximum of 50 pounds (223 N) of force shall detach the operator with the door obstructed in the down position. …..

    § 1211.12 Requirements for edge sensors.
    (a) Normal operation test. (1) When installed on a representative door edge, an edge sensor shall actuate upon the application of a 15 pounds (66.7 N) or less force in the direction of the application. For an edge sensor intended to be used on a sectional door, the force is to be applied by the longitudinal edge of a 17⁄8 inch (47.6 mm) diameter cylinder placed across the switch so that the axis is perpendicular to the plane of the door. For an edge sensor intended to be used on a one piece door, the force is to be applied so that the axis is at an angle 30 degrees from the direction perpendicular to the plane of the door. See figure 6.
    (2) With respect to the test of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, the test is to be repeated at various representative points of the edge sensor across the width of the door.
    (3) Exception: The edge sensor need not be sensitive to actuation two inches (50.4mm) or less from each end of the intended width of the door opening.

    [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Garry/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif[/IMG]

    § 1211.13 Inherent force activated secondary door sensors.
    (a) Normal operation test. (1) A force activated door sensor of a door system installed according to the installation instructions shall actuate when the door applies a 15 pound (66.7 N) or less force in the down or closing direction and when the door applies a 25 pound (111.2 N) or less force in the up or opening direction. For a force activated door sensor intended to be used in an operator intended for use only on a sectional door, the force is to be applied by the door against the longitudinal edge of a 17⁄8 (47.6 mm) diameter cylinder placed across the door so that the axis is perpendicular to the plane of the door. See Figure 6 of this part. The weight of the door is to be equal to the maximum weight rating of the operator.
    (2) The test described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section is to be repeated and measurements made at various representative points across the width and height of the door. For this test, a door sensor system and associated components shall withstand a total of 9 cycles of mechanical operation without failure with the force applied as follows:
    (i) At the center at points one, three, and five feet from the floor,
    (ii) Within 1 foot of the end of the door, at points one, three, and five feet from the floor,
    (iii) Within 1 foot of the other end of the door at points one, three, and five feet from the floor.

    § 1211.14 Instruction manual.
    ……..8. After installing opener, the door must reverse when it contacts a 11⁄2 inch high object (or a 2 by 4 board laid flat) on the floor. …..





  65. #65
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    Default Re: Overhead Garage Door Damaged During Testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Wood View Post
    If door bows like a banana and then reverses it meets the reversal test. LOL

    Yes sadly. Since there is no requirement for the amount of pressure required to cause the door to reverse. Just that it reverses within time frame specifs.


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