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  1. #1
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    Default Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    ASTM C-1063 7.11.4.1 Control joints-Control joints shall be installed in walls to delineate areas not more than 144 sf2 . . .

    Florida Building Code 7.11.4.2 The distance between control joints shall not exceed 18 ft in either direction or a length-to-width ration of 2-1/2 to 1

    ASTM C 926: A2.2.3 Where vertical and horizontal exterior plaster surfaces meet, both surfaces shall be terminated with casing beads with the vertical surface extending at least 1/4 inch below the intersecting horizontal plastered surface, thus providing a drip edge. The casing bead for the horizontal surface shall be terminated not less than 1/4 inch from the back of the vertical surface to provide drainage.

    In many instances, I see none of these compliant. This is a no brainer to report. Only in rare instances do I see the third compliant (C 926: A2.2.3). This also seems to be a no brainer to report. But in many others, I see the first two compliant on all sides of the home except the front such as is shown in the pics. This one makes me wonder if I am missing something? Comments will be appreciated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Apparently resizing the photos to fit did not work. I'll work on it.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom McDonnell View Post
    Apparently resizing the photos to fit did not work. I'll work on it.
    Tom,

    You sure those are the correct photos? Those look like nice clears photos, of the sky and something else ... reminds me of photo I take every now and then when I accidentally press the shutter button ... and get my feet, my tool bag, the sky, the inside the lens cover (yeah, I've done that many times - hmmmm why is that photo 'darkness'?) ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Tom,

    You sure those are the correct photos? Those look like nice clears photos, of the sky and something else ... reminds me of photo I take every now and then when I accidentally press the shutter button ... and get my feet, my tool bag, the sky, the inside the lens cover (yeah, I've done that many times - hmmmm why is that photo 'darkness'?) ...
    Jerry:

    They could be photos from one of some inspector's 6-hour marathons resulting in a fluff report intended to be representative of the roof's view of the heavens.

    Aaron


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Jerry:

    They could be photos from one of some inspector's 6-hour marathons resulting in a fluff report intended to be representative of the roof's view of the heavens.

    Aaron
    Or from some inspectors 8 day marathon inspection indicating something of extreme importance, such as 'this is looking up from in the attic and seeing the blue sky above'.

    you should not try to second guess why some inspectors are willing to spend so much time for their clients benefit, while others are not.



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Ok dudes, I'll deservedly take the heat for the funky photos (lol). My bad. What's going on is that when I resize them to 800 x600 somehow it's cropping to only an area this size and not the entire photo. Got an inspection this AM but will try again this PM. I love to laugh at myself so further jabs on the photos will be allright by me.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Tom,

    If you are having trouble, go here ( Microsoft PowerToys for Windows XP ), look down the right side to 'imagersizer.exe', click on it.

    It's a convenient image resizer tool.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    OK-Think I've got a pic that I think will work. Lower level block. Upper level wall is frame. On left side of photo notice a weep screed. Good. But on the wall there are no control joints? The only thing that I can think of that might except them is FBC 7.11.4.4-Wall or partition height door frames shall be considered as control joints (the windows). Also-the porch beam is frame with no weep screed between vertical/horizontal surfaces or a drip edge on the vertical.

    Comments?

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Tom,

    What part of Florida are you in (just curious, it does not matter with regards to the Florida Building Code)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom McDonnell View Post
    But on the wall there are no control joints? The only thing that I can think of that might except them is FBC 7.11.4.4-Wall or partition height door frames shall be considered as control joints (the windows).
    Nope, doors and windows do not affect the wall area, unless they are full height and split the wall into separate areas.

    Also-the porch beam is frame with no weep screed between vertical/horizontal surfaces or a drip edge on the vertical.
    Not needed when wrapped down and around "properly". The purpose of the weep screed is to allow the water which entered 'through' the stucco to its drainage plane to drain down and weep out, however, with those 'beams', the water goes through the stucco to the drainage plane, then down the drainage plane, and back out through the stucco on the bottom (gravity wins - causing the water to drain down the drainage plane and wins again when the water drains down to the top of the stucco on the bottom by pulling the water out through the stucco.

    There should, however, be corner screeds, typically of metal (in those locations because they do not restrict the path of the water like the plastic screeds to, otherwise, I typically see plastic screeds used for everything else)

    Also needs control joints on the ceiling.

    Needed:
    - Weep screed along masonry/frame joint all the way across (not just the left side)
    - Control joints on the wall and the ceiling.
    - Screeds around the windows (are they there?).
    - Screeds at all corners (are they there?).
    - Stucco should stop at least 2" above the roof surface at the two roof areas on the front and sides.

    Will those weep screeds and control joints be installed? Rarely at the time of construction, the only way to add them later is major re-working - so they will rarely (if ever) be added at this point.

    The best you can do it write it up, point it out to your client, explain what could happen (the wood framing on the second floor could rot out and there could be leaks at the lower windows from the stucco above, etc.), and advise the client to contact the local building department for their 'what to do now' advise. While the building department 'could' make the builder do it properly, it is doubtful that will happen, it's more like 'we'll make sure they do it right next time', which, of course, does them no good.

    By the way, you should be in the Florida Residential Code, not the Florida Building Code.

    - vertical surfaces (walls) - 144 sf max between control joints
    - horizontal surfaces (ceilings) - 100 sf max between control joints
    - maximum distance between control joints - 18 ft
    - maximum length-to-width ratio - 2-1/12 (length) to 1 (width)
    - control joint shall be installed where horizontal framing or furring changes direction
    - control joint shall be installed where an expansion joint occurs in the base exterior wall
    - wall or partition height door frames shall be considered as control joints (provided they are full height of the wall)
    - foundation weep screed shall be installed at the bottom of all framed exterior walls, at least 1" below the joint to whatever they are on

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Jerry

    Thanks for info. I'm in Tampa. We've met briefly on two occasions during FABI breaks. It might jog your memory-While discussing old electrical systems I mentioned that I'd seen a 20's or 30s electrical code posted on the web somewhere. As it turned out, you posted the piece.

    Back to stucco

    I think possibly the way these window openings were framed might qualify them as full height openings. Window headers are installed just below the wall top plate and then framed down to the tops of the windows, thus a full height wall opening is achieved. I thought this to be an unusual technique but also thought, OK, It'll work, no problem. Just maybe, this is the reason this technique was used. Control joints are not necessarily an aspect that enhances appearance, especially on the front of the house.

    With regard to the drip edge not necessary per ASTM C-926 A2.2.3 on beams if wrapped down properly. As a matter of practicality, I've never been concerned that leakage into the beams would be a real problem (they're well protected above by the roofs above) but rather than they are constructed as they are required to be. Is there an exception or other provision somewhere that allows the wrap method V drip edge with 1/4" gap between the vertical/horizontal surfaces that you are aware of? I cannot find one. The point here is that I desire to report correctly as well as having a place to hang my hat in the event of a gone bad when the finger pointing would begin. Metal beads are installed at beam corners.

    Horizontal weep screed does extend the full length of the dissimilar materials Block/Frame joint. It is just clearly visible in the photo on the left side.

    Regarding window casing beads-wouldn't these be behind the fin of the frame opening window at this point and not visible? Thus-no way to really know.

    Again-Thanks for your comments and thoughts. They are appreciated.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom McDonnell View Post
    I think possibly the way these window openings were framed might qualify them as full height openings. Window headers are installed just below the wall top plate and then framed down to the tops of the windows, thus a full height wall opening is achieved.
    That does not make a full height "opening" in the wall. The "opening" is the opening framed in for the window (where there is no wall sheathing, so to speak), regardless of how they framed the wall behind it.

    I thought this to be an unusual technique but also thought, OK, It'll work, no problem.
    I've seen it many times, it takes care of the dead load from above, regardless of where the header is located.

    However, in high wind areas, I would be suspicious of the wind loads on the wall at the now framed down area above the window. Not a problem if they've strapped it all in place, but not good if they just framed it down and nailed it in place - the top of the window needs to be anchored to structural framing, not just an in-fill panel.

    Control joints are not necessarily an aspect that enhances appearance, especially on the front of the house.
    Which is why builders don't like to use them, plus the fact that it costs more to use them.

    Just because they are not pretty does not mean they are not required.

    The builders easiest solution on that house (from what I see in the photo) would have been to run vertical control joints up from each side of the window - would not have looked bad either, would actually have created an 'architectural feature' look.

    Is there an exception or other provision somewhere that allows the wrap method V drip edge with 1/4" gap between the vertical/horizontal surfaces that you are aware of?
    (still trying to visualize what you are describing, I guess I'll have to come back to this later)

    Regarding window casing beads-wouldn't these be behind the fin of the frame opening window at this point and not visible? Thus-no way to really know.
    If the window is set back into the wall with a buck (to match the look of the set back windows in the block below), then the casing screeds would need to be around the window to allow the stucco to end at the casing screed (this is seldom done, but more and more builders are using more and more screeds, so it's only a matter of time before things are 'done right').

    If the window is a frame window set into the framed opening with the fin nailed to the wall, the there still should be casing screeds around the window where the stucco should finish to.

    Stucco should never be just finished to another material, it needs a screed, so the joint can be caulked and sealed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Stucco on lath-Control Joints

    Again Jerry. Thanks for the information and insights. Very helpful to me.


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