Thread: brick arch over entry way

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

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Read up. http://www.gobrick.com/Portals/25/do...Notes/TN31.pdf

The BIA has just everything you want to know about brick construction.

Originally Posted by MJ Inspections

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

https://www.google.com/search?q=pict...w=1345&bih=624


Where's the lintels? You may want to study more practical applications of construction methods.

Arches haven't needed lintels for thousands of years--they function perfectly well by means of individual members (bricks, cut stones, etc.) acting in compression against each other. Why start requiring lintels now?

Originally Posted by MJ Inspections

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

I just have to ask....and please don't take this the wrong way, but was this a serious question ??

You don't really need lintels for arches, of course for a large span is recommended to use a lintel.

http://robuild.co.uk/builders/index.php/brick-arches/

Were you able to confirm that this was actually brick and stone and not just a 1/4" thick surface veneer? (I've seen fired brick that was in the shape of a 90° corner but only 1/4" thick; to fool the eye into thinking you were looking at a brick of full thickness). Believe it was designed for home improvment, but no reason a contractor couldn't use it.

Hi Dennis

Are you asking me ?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sourc...62501154601979

Steel lintels will just rust out in 300 years.

Originally Posted by home london

Hi Dennis

Are you asking me ?

May have screwed up. Meant to ask the original commenter, MJ Inspections.

Originally Posted by MJ Inspections

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

Is this solid masonry construction or veneer on wood frame construction?

Section 6.2.2.3.3 of "Building Code Requirements and Specifications for Masonry Structures" (which is adopted by reference in the IBC) requires noncombustible lintels to support anchored veneer that is not self-supporting. If this is a veneer, then a non-combustible lintel is required by the code, or the veneer must be designed to be self-supportng. In California that means designed by an engineer.

If this is solid masonry construction, the building must be designed by an engineer who can design a masonry header to span over the opening, so a steel lintel would not be required.

A VERY interesting show on cathedral arches. 53 minutes. You'll be smarter when it's over.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient...athedrals.html

Think that the OP MJ Inspections just wanted to see what he could stir up with the arch issue. To see how members would take the ball and run with it. May be it was just a test.

Whether or not the question was ligit, still raises the questions of arches. I inspected a home last month that had, what I thought to be, very flat arches and evidenced by the fact that both arches had aleady settled or dropped by about a 1/2-3/4'' in the center with assoicated cracks in the middle of the span and some of the bricks were loosening. Don't know what was behind the brick or if it was solid masonry. I asked around to some masnory professionals and they did not have an answer and I never really got a good answer to my question-how flat does an arch have to be to no longer be an arch and need support (lintel)? My buyer walked, not just due to this, but other concerns with the masonry work.

Attachment 28258Attachment 28259

Originally Posted by Michael Bronner

Whether or not the question was ligit, still raises the questions of arches. I inspected a home last month that had, what I thought to be, very flat arches and evidenced by the fact that both arches had aleady settled or dropped by about a 1/2-3/4'' in the center with assoicated cracks in the middle of the span and some of the bricks were loosening. Don't know what was behind the brick or if it was solid masonry. I asked around to some masnory professionals and they did not have an answer and I never really got a good answer to my question-how flat does an arch have to be to no longer be an arch and need support (lintel)? My buyer walked, not just due to this, but other concerns with the masonry work.

It looks from a distance like veneer on the walls. You were right, that is trouble, with those pillars resting on those arches. Hopefully there is a beam in there to carry the weight, in which case, they only need to worry about bricks falling on the car.

Originally Posted by MJ Inspections

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

MJ Inspections -

Why don't you give us all a little help and fill out your profile a bit and let us know what part of Texas or city/region that you are hailing from and inspecting at?

I'm sure you also have a real name to go with MJ Inspections?

Be more than glad to help out.

Originally Posted by MJ Inspections

Should not there be a lintel supporting the brick arch? Otherwise, how would this be constructed to prevent collapse?

Ok full disclosure-I am a new bee here and the company that I work for produces steel arch lintels and or plates suitable to support masonry on arches like this. That said this arch looks very similar to some that we see on new home construction in the Houston area. The ones we see like this have only wood frame construction with brick, stone veneer and no structural masonry. Some builders use our (or other's) steel arches in new construction to support these masonry arches while others do not. Some that do not use steel arches have had an engineer stamp the plans which we are told basically states no steel support is needed. We have certainly seen our share of unsupported masonry arches collapse in Texas. That said I have no knowledge of an entry arch that looks specifically like the photo falling out but have seen some like these crack severely. Some builders have us supply a steel arch in their warranty phase on these badly cracked ones then demo the masonry arch and reinstall with steel support. It is a mess to do this when people are living in the house. It is also difficult to make the new masonry work match well in appearance to the old masonry nearby. Wish they would either put steel support in during new construction or install suitable structural masonry or leave masonry out of the arch altogether. Doing so would avoid the disruption to the homeowners access to the front door or garage during the rebuild. Quite a few masons tell us they can thin set the brick (they cut them thin) to the bottom of the steel support so you don't see the steel but I have not seen that myself. Good luck!

Originally Posted by Michael Bronner

Whether or not the question was ligit, still raises the questions of arches. I inspected a home last month that had, what I thought to be, very flat arches and evidenced by the fact that both arches had aleady settled or dropped by about a 1/2-3/4'' in the center with assoicated cracks in the middle of the span and some of the bricks were loosening. Don't know what was behind the brick or if it was solid masonry. I asked around to some masnory professionals and they did not have an answer and I never really got a good answer to my question-how flat does an arch have to be to no longer be an arch and need support (lintel)? My buyer walked, not just due to this, but other concerns with the masonry work.

Attachment 28258Attachment 28259

As arches get flatter they exert more lateral force, just like a low sloped gabled roof. They need more masonry at the ends to provide that support. I have not looked at the design info for quite a while, but those arches look too flat for the width of the masonry at the ends of the wall. Some of the cracking may also be due to moisture penetration.

Originally Posted by Michael Bronner

Whether or not the question was ligit, still raises the questions of arches. I inspected a home last month that had, what I thought to be, very flat arches and evidenced by the fact that both arches had aleady settled or dropped by about a 1/2-3/4'' in the center with assoicated cracks in the middle of the span and some of the bricks were loosening. Don't know what was behind the brick or if it was solid masonry. I asked around to some masnory professionals and they did not have an answer and I never really got a good answer to my question-how flat does an arch have to be to no longer be an arch and need support (lintel)? My buyer walked, not just due to this, but other concerns with the masonry work.

I totally agree with Mark’s reply to you on this. Wesupply and see steel arch plates that can overcome these really flat arches andnarrow columns sometimes. I say sometimes because it can all still crackif they don't securely bolt the steel support to the left, right, andcenter of the frame. Of course if something causes the framing to moveeven though there is steel bolted to it cracks can still occur. Michael I don't know what the craftsmanship is like where you are but in Texasit appears that some masons are in a hurry to finish the work, get paid and getout of there. Here we see arches cracking without steel support that reallyshould not be. On your question I have watchedmasonry being installed since the 80’s but I am no structural engineer. Myopinion is if you are looking at a masonry arch without cracks that isthree or more years old with no steel support it should continueto perform well in the future. For new construction let’s assume the arch had been assessed and detailed by a structural engineer and he or she had stamped my plans accordingly. Then the masonI was considering had a good long term reputation, articulated to me howhe planned to build the arch in a structurally very solid manner andcould show me successful examples of ones he had built like this in the past.In that case I would not use the steel support. Otherwise I might considerother construction methods (stucco, thin brick, thin veneer natural orsynthetic stone) or use steel support for the arch. Hope this helps and makessense.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

It looks from a distance like veneer on the walls. You were right, that is trouble, with those pillars resting on those arches. Hopefully there is a beam in there to carry the weight, in which case, they only need to worry about bricks falling on the car.

I would bet money that there is a beam that runs across the opening and the brick is used as veneer. I can't imagine that that shallow of an arch would be able to support the weight from above.