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  1. #1
    Jeff Eastman's Avatar
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    Do you guys comment if the exterior brick has been painted?



    Or am I over thinking again??

    Part1 No.


    Part2 Yes

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Had one yesterday.
    They took all the time and effort to contrast paint the mortar lines and let the siding rot off the house and allow moisture intrusion.
    The the HUD folks come by and tag it.
    What gives with some people?

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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    I note it as an FYI item in the report body. My boilerplate:

    --------------

    Observation: (FYI) For Your Information, the masonry exterior of this building has been painted:

    Analysis: Per the Brick Industry Association (BIA) once painted, exterior masonry will require repainting every three to five years. For additional information on painting brick and other masonry materials see: http://bia.org/bia/technotes/t6.htm.



  6. #6
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Jeff:

    My autotext on this situation would containt two comments; one on the painting and one on the lack of weep holes:

    The brickwork on the exterior of the house has been painted concealing historic evidence of the condition of these surfaces. See: http://www.aaronsinspections.com/BIA%20Painting%20Brick.pdf
    Blocked weep holes (openings in the mortar joints, typically found at foundation level) in the brick veneer wall structure should be cleared, as per International Residential Code sections R703.7.5 and R703.7.6.
    Weep Holes and a Clear Air Space
    Wind striking a masonry wall causes a positive pressure on the wetted brick surface. If one can equalize the pressure on either side of the masonry veneer, the force is substantially reduced, hence there is a reduction in the amount of water entering into the wall system.
    This “pressure equalization” is accomplished by using a combination of weep holes and having a clear air space directly behind the brick. This cavity needs to act as a chamber; therefore it must incorporate some form of air barrier and also be compartmentalized to obtain optimum pressure equalization. The air barrier can range from simply being the interior backup wall surface (though this can still be quite air permeable) to something achieving better performance using independent membranes adhered to the backup wall.
    The air space must be unobstructed. Effort must be made to keep the space clear of mortar when the brick is being laid. A mortar-filled space allows direct routes for water to enter into the backup wall and into the interior of the building, as well as impeding water flow out of the weep holes.
    The weep holes also provide a means of drainage for any water that does get past the brick veneer. These are located at the veneer supports, such as at shelf angles or at foundation walls.


    Of course some of you, led by JP I suppose, would harp about "grandfathering" or some such bunk regarding the code references. See if you can find the term "grandfathering" in the IRC.

    Aaron



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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    I once had a termite inspector at my own home tell me that I had to fill in my weep holes in the brick because they were a potential route for termites. Note that there were not at ground level and could easily be seen and inspected, so you'd know if a termite tube was headed up toward one.

    He went on to say that his company wouldn't renew my termite bond if I didn't. I then got on the phone with his office to make sure THEY understood the purpose of weep holes and asked them if they'd want to take care of any rot damage due to water if I did as their inspector said and filled in the weep holes.

    They said the inspector was nuts, but I wonder how many other people had filled in the weep holes not knowing what they were there for.


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    Do you guys comment if the exterior brick has been painted?

    If so what do you say and why?
    No, I do not comment on it.

    The house is 1971 without weep holes so I'm thinking the paint would prevent water from getting out if it gets behind the brick. Or am I over thinking again??
    At one time weeps were not required. As for grandfathering, weep holes can not be "properly" added to a home that does not have them. Unless you remove the brick veneer.

    The paint, if it is a Latex paint and most likely it is will not waterproof the wall and it will allow for some respiration of he wall cavity. Keep in mind that older homes without weeps really do not have much if any airspace for air movement.

    I have seen very little to no damage from a home not having weeps in it. I really think that it all depends on your location and the weather conditions you have. In the South for whatever reason I have seen hundreds of homes without weeps and have never seen any damage associated to not having them.

    Yes, they are a good idea. Yes, they are required by codes. But, if I find a home without them I simply note that they are now required in new construction and that they can not be successfully added to a home that does not have them.

    This is a good example of why codes do not always work for everything when doing a home inspection. I do a large number of inspections on home built in the 1800's and early 1900's. Codes work for electrical, plumbing and a few other things, but when it comes to the structure they do not work on older homes.

    Last edited by Scott Patterson; 10-12-2007 at 06:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    The house is 1971 without weep holes so I'm thinking the paint would prevent water from getting out if it gets behind the brick.

    Jeff,

    Are We talking about a Brick Home or a Brick Veneer Home?

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  10. #10
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    No, I do not comment on it.



    At one time weeps were not required. As for grandfathering, weep holes can not be "properly" added to a home that does not have them. Unless you remove the brick veneer.
    Scott:

    That's just plain wrong. Code requires a 3/16" diameter hole. Drill and all that's about $29 at home depot.

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    Jeff,

    Are We talking about a Brick Home or a Brick Veneer Home?
    Seeing that it is a 1971 home, I would say it is veneer. I have not seen a solid brick home younger than 80 or so years.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Aaron, how do you drill a hole without also punching a hole in the flashing?

    That's just plain wrong. Code requires a 3/16" diameter hole. Drill and all that's about $29 at home depot.
    Weeps CAN be added, but to do it properly without creating more of a problem would be the trick.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Blocked weep holes (openings in the mortar joints, typically found at foundation level) in the brick veneer wall structure should be cleared, as per International Residential Code sections R703.7.5 and R703.7.6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Scott:

    That's just plain wrong. Code requires a 3/16" diameter hole. Drill and all that's about $29 at home depot.

    Aaron
    Huh? Who's harping on codes? YOU raised the code issue in your autotext.

    Of course some of you, led by JP I suppose, would harp about "grandfathering" or some such bunk regarding the code references.
    You complain about people bringing up codes, then include code in your autotext, then state that codes are "bunk"?

    Aaron, you need to attain some consistency in your actions, otherwise, they are meaningless.

    See if you can find the term "grandfathering" in the IRC.
    (bold and underlining are mine)

    R102.7 Existing structures.
    The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

    If that is not "grandfathering" in old (existing) structures and stating that they can continue to exist without the changes required by more current codes, I don't know what "grandfathering" is.

    I've had the same discussions with Jeff Hooper about "grandfathering", there is legal precedence for it, and it does currently exit.

    grandfather


    One entry found for grandfather.

    Main Entry: 2grandfather
    Function: transitive verb
    : to permit to continue under a grandfather clause


    (Jerry's note: The second one below was outlawed and voided by the civil rights voting act; the first one below is applicable to this discussion.)

    grandfather clause

    One entry found for grandfather clause.

    Main Entry: grandfather clause
    Function: noun
    : a clause creating an exemption based on circumstances previously existing; especially : a provision in several southern state constitutions designed to enfranchise poor whites and disenfranchise blacks by waiving high voting requirements for descendants of men voting before 1867

    That's just plain wrong. Code requires a 3/16" diameter hole. Drill and all that's about $29 at home depot.
    Aaron, as we have previously discussed on this board, doing that (drilling) is only going to make a bigger problem than doing nothing. If *YOU* recommend or suggest 'drilling weep holes', you are setting yourself up for some major wall tear-downs and rebuilding.

    Whoa Nelly! YOU need to start rethinking that.



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  14. #14
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    [/font][/color]



    Huh? Who's harping on codes? YOU raised the code issue in your autotext.



    You complain about people bringing up codes, then include code in your autotext, then state that codes are "bunk"?

    Aaron, you need to attain some consistency in your actions, otherwise, they are meaningless.



    (bold and underlining are mine)

    R102.7 Existing structures.
    The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

    If that is not "grandfathering" in old (existing) structures and stating that they can continue to exist without the changes required by more current codes, I don't know what "grandfathering" is.

    I've had the same discussions with Jeff Hooper about "grandfathering", there is legal precedence for it, and it does currently exit.

    grandfather


    One entry found for grandfather.

    Main Entry: 2grandfather
    Function: transitive verb
    : to permit to continue under a grandfather clause


    (Jerry's note: The second one below was outlawed and voided by the civil rights voting act; the first one below is applicable to this discussion.)

    grandfather clause

    One entry found for grandfather clause.

    Main Entry: grandfather clause
    Function: noun
    : a clause creating an exemption based on circumstances previously existing; especially : a provision in several southern state constitutions designed to enfranchise poor whites and disenfranchise blacks by waiving high voting requirements for descendants of men voting before 1867




    JP:

    Your eloquent perspicacity notwithstanding the term is not to be found in the IRC, JP.

    Aaron




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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP:

    Your eloquent perspicacity notwithstanding the term is not to be found in the IRC, JP.

    Aaron
    Aaron,

    *THE TERM* is not, HOWEVER ...

    ... *THE DEFINITION OF THE TERM* is - see repeated code section below:

    R102.7 Existing structures.

    The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

    Just like calling someone a butt-hole ... that person does not, in all likelihood, contain the *term* 'butt-hole', however, *their actions* may clearly indicate that they are.

    Just an example, mind you, not referring to you that way.


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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    *THE TERM* is not, HOWEVER ...

    ... *THE DEFINITION OF THE TERM* is - see repeated code section below:

    R102.7 Existing structures.

    The legal occupancy of any structure existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, except as is specifically covered in this code, the International Property Maintenance Code or the International Fire Code, or as is deemed necessary by the building official for the general safety and welfare of the occupants and the public.

    Just like calling someone a butt-hole ... that person does not, in all likelihood, contain the *term* 'butt-hole', however, *their actions* may clearly indicate that they are.


    Just an example, mind you, not referring to you that way.
    JP:

    Now, now, JP . . . I thought specificity was your forte. And don't worry about the butt hole implication (or is the inference?). I've been called much worse, even today . . .

    Aaron


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Now, now, JP . . . I thought specificity was your forte.
    And it is "specifically stated" that older buildings are allowed to exist under the code to which they were built (i.e., those buildings are "grandfathered in" under the codes to which they were built).

    How much "specificity" do you want? It *IS* all right there.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    And it is "specifically stated" that older buildings are allowed to exist under the code to which they were built (i.e., those buildings are "grandfathered in" under the codes to which they were built).

    How much "specificity" do you want? It *IS* all right there.
    JP:

    If you want to critique what I write, then learn to read what I write, without reading your own BS into it. That's the sort of specificity I'm after. The very same you would require of anyone else. Go back and READ what I wrote. You'll find your answer there.

    Butt Hole [sic because the hyphen that you use does not apply]Aaron


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    Butt Hole [sic because the hyphen that you use does not apply]Aaron
    Actually, it is a one word word, just like the word it replaced, but I put the hyphen in there because I wanted to separate it from what mostly likely came to your mind, at least in its most common usage.

    What do you find missing in this?
    And it is "specifically stated" that older buildings are allowed to exist under the code to which they were built (i.e., those buildings are "grandfathered in" under the codes to which they were built).

    How much "specificity" do you want? It *IS* all right there.
    The code *IS* specific in its specificity, that is what you wanted to know and asked about - it covers "grandfathering" in of older existing homes to the code they were constructed under and do not have to be brought up to the standards of current codes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Actually, it is a one word word, just like the word it replaced, but I put the hyphen in there because I wanted to separate it from what mostly likely came to your mind, at least in its most common usage.

    What do you find missing in this?


    The code *IS* specific in its specificity, that is what you wanted to know and asked about - it covers "grandfathering" in of older existing homes to the code they were constructed under and do not have to be brought up to the standards of current codes.
    JP:

    Its simple. The word "grandfathered" is not in the IRC. Period. That's all I said and I stand by it until you can shovel up some eimpirical evidence to the contrary. Don't read anything else into it, it's a waste of time.

    As for the butt-hole thing, well . . .I'm just not a hyphenated kind of guy. Sorry, gotta go finish this freaking report. Have a good weekend . . .

    Ass Hole Aaron


  21. #21
    Richard Rushing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Sounds like that freak'in Bill Cliton-- depends on what your definition of *is*-- *is*


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    Just like calling someone a butt-hole ... that person does not, in all likelihood, contain the *term* 'butt-hole', however, *their actions* may clearly indicate that they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    JP:

    eimpirical evidence

    As for the butt-hole thing, well . . .

    Ass Hole Aaron
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    OK you guys, give me a break. What it IS is almost 5pm on Friday . . .
    Margarita Time!

    Try this:

    One part Patron Silver
    One part Grand Marnier
    One Part Orange Curacao
    One Part Triple Sec
    One Part Roses Lime
    Juice of one lime
    Salted rim on a wide-brim glass

    Definitely will take the edge off a ten inspection week . . .

    Una mas por favor . . .Aaron


  24. #24
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Miller View Post
    OK you guys, give me a break. What it IS is almost 5pm on Friday . . .
    Margarita Time!

    Try this:

    One part Patron Silver
    One part Grand Marnier
    One Part Orange Curacao
    One Part Triple Sec
    One Part Roses Lime
    Juice of one lime
    Salted rim on a wide-brim glass

    Definitely will take the edge off a ten inspection week . . .

    Una mas por favor . . .Aaron
    Uhhh...Shouldn't that be Uno, not Una ?
    In any case, just call me when the pitcher of margaritas is ready!


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Kevin,

    Your about 5 hrs. too late to get any of those margaritas from Aaron.

    Aaron is probably wasted now and about to screw up a romantic evening.

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  26. #26
    Kevin Barre's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Rick,
    Seems I'm always too late for the margaritas...except when I'm buying.

    I'm not taking sides in this issue. I was only trying to inject a little diversion into a post that had seemingly become too personal. I'm brand-spanking new to this forum and don't know the personalities yet. I don't want to step on anyone's toes.

    But If Aaron has indeed had a 10 inspection week, my hat's off to him. Things have slowed down way too much around here for me not to respect that.


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Knowing Aaron he probably meant a 10K week. Aaron has a well known business and reputation in the metroplex.

    Thats why he's smiling. (Right Aaron)

    10 inspections a week would be considered a slow week around here for most of us when its busy.

    rick


  28. #28
    Aaron Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Barre View Post
    Uhhh...Shouldn't that be Uno, not Una ?
    In any case, just call me when the pitcher of margaritas is ready!
    My spell check hasn't learned Spanish . . .


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Knowing Aaron he probably meant a 10K week. Aaron has a well known business and reputation in the metroplex.

    Thats why he's smiling. (Right Aaron)

    10 inspections a week would be considered a slow week around here for most of us when its busy.

    rick
    Rick:

    I promised myself that when I turned 50, which was several years back, that I personally would not do more than 10 inspection in a week and take weekends off. At an average of $500 each that keeps me in Patron and other essentials. Besides, you cannot do the kind of inspections I do and get to more than two in a day. I book my first ones at 8am and the second at 2PM. With drive, inspect, and report time that makes for a minimum 12-hour day.

    So, Rick, if you are doing 15 or 20 inspections a week, then I assume at least some of the following to be true:

    (1) You have other inspectors working for you and are counting their inspections in your total.
    (2) You work 21-hour days, 5 days a week or 15-hour days, 7 days a week.
    (3) You drive 50 miles an hour over the speed limit, spend less than one hour running at top speed on each inspection and spontaneously produce the written reports out the back of your Dockers as you go.
    (4) You inspect very little and produce 5-pagers.
    (5) You are a prodigiously-gifted raconteur.

    This sort of fabling reminds me of someone who's name I won't mention because he was until recently the head of a Texas inspector group. A few years back he mentioned how he had performed over 10,000 full inspections in his 18 years as an inspector. Math may not be my strong suit, but I asked him how he had managed to perform 556 inspections every year for that many years. I mean really folks, how many of you did 556 complete inspections in your very first year? Think: incenerated drawers here folks.

    Turns out, of course, that it was just blather and he's been reducing that number each time I've heard from him ever since.

    My point here is that, unless you've discovered the secret of folding time; have a clone working with you; or are just plain deluded, you are either doing minimalist reports or you are not doing 15 or 20 per week . . . or your working too damned hard.

    But hey, I could certainly be wrong.

    Aaron


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Aaron,

    We have (3) full time inspectors and average 2 a day per inspector in the busy season. Plus I have a PC control business to operate and we own a hair salon. Yeah, I'm a busy man and my hair looks good. Dockers I don't wear. More of a jeans guy still.

    Most of the time though, I have 2 inspectors on each job.

    My day is about like yours, 8-8pm.

    No work on the weekends, most of the time. My sons are grown and married off so I dont' have to be around the house most of the time so the occasional inspection on a Sat. is not a big deal. If not I will get dragged out to a mall somewhere walking around like a zombie.

    NEVER on Sundays.

    rick (52)


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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Jeez, you guys make me sound slow.

    I had worked my way *down to* only 1 or 2 per week.



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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Thats the goal here. One a day I have no problem with even if its just a smaller home.

    The more you make, the more you spend anyway.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Painted Exterior stone/brick

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    Thats the goal here. One a day I have no problem with even if its just a smaller home.

    The more you make, the more you spend anyway.
    Rick:

    Maybe JP will give us some pointers on the one-a-week plan. That sure sounds good to me . . .

    Aaron


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