Thread: Exterior Door Landing

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Dan
I don't have the IRC at home, but from memory. The interior swing door is not required to have a landing outside.

Dan,

No photo?

Originally Posted by dan orourke

The agent said the rear door NEEDED a landing, I said it did not as the door opened inward AND there was a landing for the front entry door for emergency exit.

If I ignore the rest, I think I get what you are saying from the above.

First, a "landing" is needed, sometimes, but, define "landing".

The ground outside can serve as a "landing".

So, the question becomes, are you referring to a landing level with the interior floor, or a landing one step down?

Jerry
I gotta say, you think beyond the obvious.

Rick,

Well, you certainly do not want to step out into a black hole and step out the other side in China, do you?

So, 'how far down' is that step Dan and the agent are talking about? Could it be one and the same?

Thats what I mean. I read it and think, inswing door no landing needed(stop). Whereas you read it and think, inswing door, what is (or is not) out there.

Originally Posted by dan orourke

I'm refering from the threshold to the first step below the threshold, I don't think a landing is needed there, am I correct?

"am I correct?

Nope.

But there are more problems there than just that.

(bold and underlining are mine)
- R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
- - Exceptions:
- - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
- - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
- - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 73/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.
- - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door
served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of
36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

There are three (3) risers at that stair, which means it does not meet the exception and landing is required.

The risers are of different heights and exceed the allowable variation between riser heights.

I doubt that handrail will withstand the loads it is required to withstand. Plus, the lower end juts out and is not returned properly.

That should be a pretty good start.

Dan,

In your picture what is that rectangle in the corner at the foundation ?

Originally Posted by dan orourke

I didn't go under the house as there was a zillion ants under there

Dan,

I'm with you on not going under. We have fire ants in our area. If you are in a confined space with those it could cost you your life.

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

however, I consider the foundation "ledge" to be a tread that is less than 8 inches which is a defect. Am I correct in my assessment?

Looks like that 'ledge' is the same level as the floor inside, hence not a 'tread' ... but not a 'landing' either (actually, it is a 'landing', just not a 'code landing').

Not sure I like it, but not sure I would write it up either - is the floor inside the same level?

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

would you not want a vertical offset to prevent water from getting in?

"would I want" versus "is it required"?

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Ha!

Is it "required"?

If not required, would you recommend?

No and no, it is way too late on an existing house. For new homes under construction, I always recommended it (seldom was done, though).

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Jerry,

Why wouldn't you consider the ledge to be a tread?

There is no riser above it. Thus, if anything, it would be a landing, and, as long as the door swings in, no landing is required there, so it is just (for lack of a better term) 'floor'.

What would you say if the door was set back 2" or so like most doors are instead of about 8"? Would that be a tread?

Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman

Interesting!

Would you consider it a riser , though?

A riser goes up, it 'rises' from one tread to the next, so I'm not following that question.

Are you asking about the second riser up, from the tread to the floor above? If so, yes, that is a riser, and a riser goes from landing to landing (one riser), landing to tread (for two more risers), tread to tread (for two more risers), or tread to landing (for two more risers).

House with no "front door", rather two exterior doors, one on each side, both exiting to walkways along their respective sides of the building.

Both exterior "landings" are walkways at grade.

Door A is off living room.

Door B is off kitchen.

The tops of both thresholds are 2.5" above their landings.

Have I got this right:

1) Door A is the "required exit door".

2) The 2.5" from top of threshold to landing height of the required exit door is non -compliant with R311.4.3 (too high).

3) Door B is "other than the required exit door".

4) As "two or fewer risers" are located on the exterior side door B, it falls under exception 1, no "landing" is required, and the 1.5" maximum does not apply.

5) However, at door B, the distance from the top of the threshold to the walkway must be less than or equal to 7.75" .

I think you have it down pretty good.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

Door A is off living room.

The tops of both thresholds are 2.5" above their landings.

Have I got this right:

1) Door A is the "required exit door".

2) The 2.5" from top of threshold to landing height of the required exit door is non -compliant with R311.4.3 (too high).

You've missed Exception 2 (assuming the door swings inward and not outward).

From the 2006 IRC. (bold and underlining are mine)
- R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
- - Exceptions:
- - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
- - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7 3/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
- - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 7 3/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.

Now here's one more twist... according to this diagram:

InterNACHI Message Board

the 1-1/2" does not include the "compressible element" of an air-seal atop the threshold....

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

Now here's one more twist... according to this diagram:

the 1-1/2" does not include the "compressible element" of an air-seal atop the threshold....

Michael,

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However, what you measure to is the height at which you foot lands when stepping up, and, if that 'compressible element' is dried out and does not compress, then, yes, it would be measured, otherwise, no.

Think of it this way (although it is not for this purpose): The 1/2" maximum height in the path of a wheelchair, with sides slope 2:1 if over 1/4" high: that 1/2" height if the height the wheel chair had to roll over, so, you could have a 'compressible element' which would compress under the weight of the well chair and the person in the wheel chair would not have to go over anything greater than 1/2", nothing extra is needed on their part to go over it.

Likewise, if you had a compressible element and you stepped over it, if your shoe hit the compressible element, the element would compress and not be a hazard either.

Diagram is as follows:

Michael,

Thank you for that drawing, it is from the IRC commentary, however ...

... that drawing is incorrect. I have attached a corrected drawing which actually depicts what the code is saying and what it is meaning.

To understand my drawing difference, first you must think about thresholds which have "different profiles" - not all profiles are that 'high saddle' type. My drawing takes into consideration that other profile thresholds exist (and they do, and are used with great frequency).

My wife's comment, over my shoulder:

"I see you are looking at that Home Inspection porn again..."

Jerry,

BTW, I really like he idea of having both door swings on the same diagram in different colors; makes the interpretation very clear.

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

makes the interpretation very clear.

Michael,

I was also showing the it is acceptable for the outdoors side to step down up to 1-1/2" below the interior floor level (depending on threshold height) if the door swings in or outward.

1) If you used a 1/2" high bumper threshold with an out-swing door, the outdoor floor or landing could only be 1" lower than the interior floor level as you measure down from the top of the threshold.

2) If the door did not have a threshold under it on the floor but instead had a 'sweep' mounted to the bottom of the out-swing door (which would serve the same purpose as a threshold), then the exterior floor or landing could really be that 1-1/2" down. I have seen this on expensive home with marble/granite/saturnia/travertine/etc. (stone) floors where the stone flooring continued out to the edge of the slab and stepped down to the 'porch floor' outside. Yes, the sweep does eventually wear into the stone, especially softer stone, but it is what they want and meets code minimums.

Things to consider before writing up step downs outside the door.

It was hard to show that in one drawing, probably should have made two or more drawing details showing those possibilities and put them on one larger drawing.

As long as what I was showing was easily understood, then that one drawing worked out okay. Was it easily understood?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Michael,

Thank you for that drawing, it is from the IRC commentary, however ...

... that drawing is incorrect. I have attached a corrected drawing which actually depicts what the code is saying and what it is meaning.

To understand my drawing difference, first you must think about thresholds which have "different profiles" - not all profiles are that 'high saddle' type. My drawing takes into consideration that other profile thresholds exist (and they do, and are used with great frequency).

Jerry,

I just posted the diagram.

Frankly I find your diagram a bit more confusing.

The main points are:

1-1/2" max from the top of the non compressible threshold to the floor.

7-3/4 " max from the step/landing to the top of non compressible portion of the threshold.


Please correct me if needed.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

The main points are:

1-1/2" max from the top of the non compressible threshold to the floor.

Michael,

To "which floor" is the 1-1/2" measured?

THAT is what I was showing in mine as it is not shown correctly in the IRC drawing.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Michael,

To "which floor" is the 1-1/2" measured?

THAT is what I was showing in mine as it is not shown correctly in the IRC drawing.

Jerry, I think I found your diagram confusing because the scale changes from one side of the door to the other.

The original diagram probably should have had the 1-1/2" dimension on the door swing side for clarity but I just looked beyond that.

Originally Posted by Michael Larson

Jerry, I think I found your diagram confusing because the scale changes from one side of the door to the other.

I should have removed the scale shown on their drawing.

I had to either change the scale or do several different details for various thresholds, I choose to ignore the scale, I should have then removed the scale shown in the drawing and shown it as Scale = NTS (Not to Scale).

For those on the left coast (CA) the max height for thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 0.5 and for sliding glass doors 0.75 as of Jan. 1, 2008. CBC 1008.1.6.

I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)

Originally Posted by Larry Stratton

I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)

.
Welcome Larry,

Yes.
.

Originally Posted by Larry Stratton

I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
Welcome Larry,

Yes.
.

I agree with Billy as long as you are not referring to a screen door or storm door.

Sorry to bring this out of the grave, but I saw this and almost fell out of my chair laughing... some funny chit..

Originally Posted by Michael Thomas

My wife's comment, over my shoulder:

"I see you are looking at that Home Inspection porn again..."

Here is what I have. I hope I am not missing the point.

Landings.
1008.1.6 Landings at doors.
Landings shall have a width not less than the width of the stairway or the door, whichever is greater. Doors in the fully open position shall not reduce a required dimension by more than 7 inches (178 mm). When a landing serves an occupant load of 50 or more, doors in any position shall not reduce the landing to less than one-half its required width. Landings shall have a length measured in the direction of travel of not less than 44 inches (1118 mm).

Thresholds.
1008.1.7 Thresholds.
Thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 3/4 inch (19.1 mm) in height above the finished floor or landing for sliding doors serving dwelling units or 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) above the finished floor or landing for other doors. Raised thresholds and floor level changes greater than 1/4 inch (6.4 mm) at doorways shall be beveled with a slope not greater than one unit vertical in two units horizontal (50-percent slope).

Robert,

From the IBC?

The IBC is not applicable to buildings the IRC addresses (one- and two-family dwellings and townhouses), and the IBC rules for inside dwelling units in buildings under the IBC typically match, for things like that, the rules in the IRC as the items are not 'common areas' but are 'inside the dwelling unit'.

Thanks Jerry.
I was confused.