Thread: Overhead door reverse failure

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

You are trying to lump the 4" and 6" together. The 4" is for an obstruction that the door actually hits and the 6" is if there is something laying on the floor for the photo eye to see.

Not lumping them together, go back and read my post - I said they were different: (I just added the bold and underlining for your)

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And, yes, I think some manufacturer's include 4 inches, or even 5 inches, to be above that 4" high obstruction, but ... that is not listed for the photo cell test, so some don't include any minimum height, not even for the 1" closing space at the bottom of the travel.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

..................Many contractors (at least in Florida) build in a 3/4" recess for the garage door to close to so that the garage door closes below the garage floor level to help prevent wind blown rain and water penetration into the garage.

IF ... if that recess extends 6 inches in from the center of the door, one could measure the 6 inch height as being from above that recess (I am not recommending such, but IF the recess is that wide, it would meet the CFR 16-1211.11 requirements).

...................

Not to uncommon to see the floor higher than drive in Maryland, typically to block rain water from entering. But your 2nd part of quote above had me thinking to find an example of installation. As it turned out not to difficult.

Take a look at Chamberlain help video. Notice the recess offset of the floor in relation to the door and sensors.

Showing a recess in the floor at the point of closure at floor and sensor location. About 30 sec into video. Ignore the question that the video is answering. Check the floor. Here is a link

Why won't my door fully open?

Referring back to the OP.

Then as to_____to some.__ But not to restart an argument. Just to provide a little info/reference/support for anyone that may want a manufacture's wording/instructions to support their inspection methods. Rather than take word of mouth..__.

Test the DOWN (close) force

How do I adjust the travel and force limits?
Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway through DOWN (close) travel. The door should reverse. Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction. See Adjustment Step 3, page 30. If the door is hard to hold or doesn't reverse, DECREASE the DOWN (close) force by turning the control counterclockwise. Make small adjustments until the door reverses normally. After each adjustment, run the opener through a complete cycle.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

How do I adjust the travel and force limits?

The home inspector SHOULD NOT BE ADJUSTING the down force.

That is for homeowner maintenance.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Not to uncommon to see the floor higher than drive in Maryland, typically to block rain water from entering. But your 2nd part of quote above had me thinking to find an example of installation. As it turned out not to difficult.

Take a look at Chamberlain help video. Notice the recess offset of the floor in relation to the door and sensors.

Showing a recess in the floor at the point of closure at floor and sensor location. About 30 sec into video. Ignore the question that the video is answering. Check the floor. Here is a link

Why won't my door fully open?

That recess does not look to be at least 6 inches in from the center of the door, which would be required for that 12 inch wide by 6 inch high obstruction centered under the door - thus the 6 inch height of the obstruction would be on the floor, not on the recess.

Cut a piece of plastic sign which is 12 inches by 6 inches, mark the 6 inch center of the 12 inch length, center that under the center of the door - that should block the photo cell - if it does not, the photo cell is too high.

Yeah, like, right, all home inspectors are going to carry 12" x 6" piece of plastic sign with them ...

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

Referring back to the OP.

Then as to_____to some.__ But not to restart an argument. Just to provide a little info/reference/support for anyone that may want a manufacture's wording/instructions to support their inspection methods. Rather than take word of mouth..__.

Test the DOWN (close) force

How do I adjust the travel and force limits?
Grasp the door bottom when the door is about halfway through DOWN (close) travel. The door should reverse. Reversal halfway through down travel does not guarantee reversal on a 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) obstruction. See Adjustment Step 3, page 30. If the door is hard to hold or doesn't reverse, DECREASE the DOWN (close) force by turning the control counterclockwise. Make small adjustments until the door reverses normally. After each adjustment, run the opener through a complete cycle.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The home inspector SHOULD NOT BE ADJUSTING the down force.

That is for homeowner maintenance.

It is not about the HI adjusting anything. It is about realizing that to much force can potentially cause damage when testing reversal at the floor using a solid block. It is also about providing an authoritative source, the manufacture, to support that position. As personal experience seems insufficient for some. Chambrerlain even say that in the link I posted. They state:
"

WARNING

Without a properly installed safety reversal system, persons (particularly small children) could be SERIOUSLY INJURED or KILLED by a closing garage door.

• Too much force on garage door will interfere with proper operation of safety reversal system.
• NEVER increase force beyond minimum amount required to close garage door.
• NEVER use force adjustments to compensate for a binding or sticking garage door.
• If one control (force or travel limits) is adjusted, the other control may also need adjustment.
• After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested. Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-1/2" high (3.8 cm) object (or 2 x 4 laid flat) on floor. "

Translation : " You could damage the door."

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

It is not about the HI adjusting anything. It is about realizing that to much force can potentially cause damage when testing reversal at the floor using a solid block. It is also about providing an authoritative source, the manufacture, to support that position. As personal experience seems insufficient for some. Chambrerlain even say that in the link I posted.

Except that you keep harping on that as a TEST the home inspector should make.

It is a maintenance ADJUSTMENT test for the home owner, it is NOT a TEST that the home inspector should make.

They state:
"

WARNING

Without a properly installed safety reversal system, persons (particularly small children) could be SERIOUSLY INJURED or KILLED by a closing garage door.

• Too much force on garage door will interfere with proper operation of safety reversal system.

Correct, and IF THE FORCE IS SET WRONG ... then the reversal system might not work, and there is a test for that, it is the 2x4 on the floor.

If you want to promote the Chamberlain site and information, did you notice that THEY HAD THE 2x4 THE WRONG WAY ... AND ... NOT CENTERED under the door opener in their test demonstration? Yep. And you are relying on them for good information?

Garry, this thread has ... are you trying to beat the horse enough to make glue out of it? Or are you trying to continue side tracking it?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

it is NOT a TEST that the home inspector should make.

You really are delusional. Where do you come off making such an ambiguous statement?
A friggin knowledgeable inspector can make an assessment of the reversal.
Just because you don't have the knowledge doesn't mean crap to the rest of us.
Learn how then do it. It may save life and/or property..Huh?
WoW! Lay down Brother...
There is aways one in every group!

Originally Posted by Roy Lewis

There is aways one in every group!

And, from your posts, you are that one.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And, from your posts, you are that one.

Now! You drawn first blood...
Be prepared. I for one am sure you don't have a clue . Baffling with BS..huh?
Are you friggin' telling me you don't test Garage door reversal?
If not! Then why in the hell would I want you as an inspector..?
What do you do with a garage door..Look at it go up and down..?

Originally Posted by Roy Lewis

There is aways one in every group!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And, from your posts, you are that one.

Originally Posted by Roy Lewis

Now! You drawn first blood...
Be prepared. I for one am sure you don't have a clue . Baffling with BS..huh?
Are you friggin' telling me you don't test Garage door reversal?
If not! Then why in the hell would I want you as an inspector..?
What do you do with a garage door..Look at it go up and down..?

Yet another post verifying that you are one you referring to.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yet another post verifying that you are one you referring to.

Well! I guess the intellect isn't there to have a friendly conversation.
So! Since a lack of response on your part about a simple garage door inspection means you don't have a clue as to what you are doing when it comes to this subject.
Or would you rather babble on with you nothingness?
Yes or No?

Originally Posted by Roy Lewis

Well! I guess the intellect isn't there to have a friendly conversation.
So! Since a lack of response on your part about a simple garage door inspection means you don't have a clue as to what you are doing when it comes to this subject.
Or would you rather babble on with you nothingness?
Yes or No?

Geeze ... looks like we just got rid off one and then we get another one ... HG ... JA ... KW ... and now RL.

Put simply, your posts do not indicate that you can, or are even willing to, "have a friendly conversation".

No need for me to keep trying to communicate with one so clueless as you are.

If you put me with KW you will be my enemy!
I have read multitudes of your post and I have came to the determination that you and Kevin Wood are brothers. You have pulled the wool over to many eyes and I for one will never believe your crap. You are truly a joke..admit it!
I'm sure you would never admit you didn't know everything..Huh?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Geeze ... looks like we just got rid off one and then we get another one ... HG ... JA ... KW ... and now RL.

Put simply, your posts do not indicate that you can, or are even willing to, "have a friendly conversation".

No need for me to keep trying to communicate with one so clueless as you are.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

.....
Correct, and IF THE FORCE IS SET WRONG ... then the reversal system might not work, and there is a test for that, it is the 2x4 on the floor.
,,,,,,

I think I understand, rather than do something that might prevent damaging the door you would rather see the door get damaged and have a chuckle writing "failed under testing".

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

I think I understand, rather than do something that might prevent damaging the door you would rather see the door get damaged and have a chuckle writing "failed under testing".

If one inspects the door FIRST - this discussion has been through MANY times before - inspect the door FIRST, and if anything looks amiss (there are many things which could lead to crumpling of the door), then the simple solution is to write those things up and state that the auto reverse function cannot, should not, be tested until those items are corrected, at which time the person making those corrections needs to verify that the auto reverse works after the other repairs have been completed.

If all the visual signs indicate that the door is suitable for auto reverse testing, and if the auto reverse testing is done PROPERLY, there is no reason for the door to fail.

Doing an unnecessary test for force will not assure you that the door will not crumple ... in fact ... doing that 'arm force test' is what crumpled the door and started this entire thread - so don't go beating your drums about doing that test to 'save the door'.

The most important part is a thorough visual inspection of the door - to make sure that all things are right (as best possible).

There have been reports here that the block of wood which was attached to the wall pulled off - even a thorough visual inspection might not pick that up, but it might.

There have been reports here of doors falling off the track when the tracks spread apart - a visual inspection might not pick that up either, but it might if the cause was missing track bracing.

There have been reports here of almost every type of failure - testing the force test would likely as not done nothing to stop those failures, a thorough visual inspection would have a better chance as some of those failures were from doors bending at the top due to not having a brace installed across the top of the door - a visual inspection would find that, a force test would only crumple the door.

If the home inspector feels a need to do the force test, then by all means do it, but they might as well also do every other test for the door too.

Or, do the standard, recommended, and required test - test the auto reverse.

Garry, when you test an oven for anti-tip, do you make sure that the range is fully in the hold-down brackets, that the hold-down brackets are properly and securely anchored to the floor? Both of those additional tests would require pulling the range out and doing additional testing of the brackets themselves. If the home inspector is so inclined, nothing prohibits it, but there is no practical reason to do those additional tests.

You keep promoting an additional, maintenance adjust test, as something which needs to be done by the inspector, with the proper and thorough visual test done first, that force test will not tell you anything that the standard, recommended and required auto reverse test will tell you, and, in fact, the force test will not tell you if the door auto reverses properly at the required height.

I don't mind dancing around the mulberry bush with you, but you really need to give it a break now and then.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

How do I adjust the travel and force limits?

Garry,

Here is an example of what I am referring to - taken from the link you provided:

You keep harping on, yes, "harping on" the force test, yet you skipped right over other maintenance adjustments and tests which should be considered (by your thinking) as just as important.

Why did you skip Step 1?

Step 1: Adjust the UP and DOWN Travel Limits


WARNING


Without a properly installed safety reversal system, persons (particularly small children) could be SERIOUSLY INJURED or KILLED by a closing garage door.


Incorrect adjustment of garage door travel limits will interfere with proper operation of safety reversal system.


After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested. Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-1/2" (3.8 cm) high object (or 2 x 4 laid flat) on floor.

Isn't that just as important as your Step 2?

It says "SERIOUSLY INJURED or KILLED" (all caps are theirs, not mine).

It also says "Incorrect adjustment ... will interfere with proper operation of the safety reversal system."

It also says "After ANY" (all caps are theirs, not mine) "adjustments are made, ... Door MUST reverse on contact with" the 2x4.

Why did you pick out just Step 2 of the maintenance adjustments and tests?

I'm trying to follow your logic for picking just that one test and not all of the others, but your logic is illogical.

Jerry,
The short answer/reply.

The down force test is not the first first nor the last part of an inspection. Unless there is excessive down force and you might determine that further testing would be ill advised. The down force test is just part of the overall inspection with more than one purpose. Nothing illogical about it. It is part of a process.

The number of things that you look at and test is purely a mater of the degree of professionalism you want to attach to the inspection of the door.

......Stop here for the quick reply:::::::::::

To clarify, I have not promoted or suggested the HI making any adjustments to any door. Rather I would strongly recommend that the HI not make any adjustment or alterations to the door's installation.

The OP of this thread may be an example of a poor determination of how the door and components were installed or had been modified. The door failure was due to a factor prior to the down force test, materials or installation. I am confident that I would be able to determine what caused the failure if I inspected the installation. The HIi may or may not have been able to see the defect. Recognizing that there is a defect is something else.


As for what you saw in the Chamberlain video using the block, unless I totally missed something, is placed in the center of the door. Manufactures can make errors in print and in videos. Don't think that is the case here, but possible. Possibly we are looking at different videos. Chamberlain is a major producer of operators world wide with a good product and a long track record. I don't like their how they have responded to technical questions I have posed to them in the past, but that is the way it is. I don't have to like the people to like the product.

Darn,,,,,, ,,,,didn't want it to be this long a response... I know how many prefer the 10 word statements that are quick and easy to read.

Referencing the height of the sensors I sent a question to Chamberlain, made it simple and received a simple response. Here it is...

Question:
I understand that the height location for the sensor is not to exceed 6 inches.
Is there a minimum height from floor to mount the photo eye sensors?

Response:
We do not have a minimum height requirement. As long as the brackets do not exceed over 6 inches, you should be ok.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

To clarify, I have not promoted or suggested the HI making any adjustments to any door. Rather I would strongly recommend that the HI not make any adjustment or alterations to the door's installation.
.
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Darn,,,,,, ,,,,didn't want it to be this long a response... I know how many prefer the 10 word statements that are quick and easy to read.

Garry,

Short answer is: The down force test is part and parcel of the down force adjustment of the maintenance section for the home owner.

You are picking and choosing between home owner maintenance adjustment tests, trying to justify the one you picked.

IF the door does not reverse properly on the 2x4, the down force may be a cause ... as may be the travel limit ...

Long answer is: no need for long answer.

Roy, all things being equal in life, it's not the InterNACHI MB.
Full moon last night?

The down force test is a part of the total functionality of the door.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

The down force test is a part of the total functionality of the door.

Key words: ... "is a part of" ...

... as are ALL of the other tests ... yet you only single out that one test.

There are A LOT of other tests which are "part of the total functionality of the door". You have yet to explain why you are only pushing that one test over all the other tests which are required to be done.

The end result of all of the other tests is to properly automatically reverse the door, in addition to allowing the door to fully open and fully close. The auto-reversing on the 2x4 test, properly placed and properly done, is verification that all other tests are within their normal operational parameters with respect to the auto-reverse mechanism.

If the auto-reverse does not reverse, then one or more of the other adjustments are outside their normal operational parameters.

The most professional home inspector will do the professionally recognized and stated test: the auto-reverse on the 2x4.

Doing more testing does not make one 'more professional', it makes them look like they do not understand the requirements - the auto-reverse on the 2x4 test.

Doing more also increases their liability as they have now made more tests, and have not made the associated adjustments to verify that those test results are where the test results should be - i.e., testing the down force without making adjustments is not testing that the down force is at or near the lowest setting necessary to close the door.

From your link: (bold is mine)

WARNING


Without a properly installed safety reversal system, persons (particularly small children) could be SERIOUSLY INJURED or KILLED by a closing garage door.


- Too much force on garage door will interfere with proper operation of safety reversal system.
- NEVER increase force beyond minimum amount required to close garage door.
- NEVER use force adjustments to compensate for a binding or sticking garage door.
- If one control (force or travel limits) is adjusted, the other control may also need adjustment.
- After ANY adjustments are made, the safety reversal system MUST be tested. Door MUST reverse on contact with 1-1/2" high (3.8 cm) object (or 2 x 4 laid flat) on floor.

For clarification for all of us - you are saying:
- a) do the force test INSTEAD OF the 2x4 test
- b) do the force test IN ADDITION TO the 2x4 test

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

,,,,,....There are A LOT of other tests which are "part of the total functionality of the door". You have yet to explain why you are only pushing that one test over all the other tests which are required to be done.........................

For clarification for all of us - you are saying:
- a) do the force test INSTEAD OF the 2x4 test
- b) do the force test IN ADDITION TO the 2x4 test

What I keep saying is:

" b) do the force test IN ADDITION TO the 2x4 test "

Again, if the operator is out of adjustment in travel limits and downward force, especially with older operators, the door can be damaged when performing the reversal test using a 2x4 on the floor .

Again, I would promote the other tests that are part of the functionality of the operator and door.

Back to plucking the bird... ,,... hope you are having a good day, especially if you are able share it with family and friends..

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

What I keep saying is:

" b) do the force test IN ADDITION TO the 2x4 test "

Thank you for that clarification, now, clarify why not the other tests which could ...

Again, if the operator is out of adjustment in travel limits and downward force, especially with older operators, the door can be damaged when performing the reversal test using a 2x4 on the floor .

There are many things which can contribute to crumpling of the door even when the force is properly set, and, again, that crumpling of the door can take place without even doing the 2x4 test - going back to the original post in this thread and the door crumpling while doing the force test. Your reasoning for doing the force test to prevent crumpling of the door just does not withstand the force being applied behind promoting it.

Again, I would promote the other tests that are part of the functionality of the operator and door.

You would, but you are not, you are singling out one test of the many tests which are "part of the functionality of the operator and door"

Hope everyone is having a good Thanksgiving day, and I also hope that Garry's and my bantering back and forth has not been, and is not, too much for the other members of the board. The purpose of which is to establish the proper test and the why behind it.

There are many components within a home which are dangerous during operation, the garage door is just one of them for which there are recognized standard testing procedures. You certainly can't test for homeowner stupidity, which is often the cause for accidents and injury.

Aside from and including examination of the door, two basic tests are recognized both of which involved door reversal. One, if there is an obstruction across the threshold (beam sensor) and the other for downward pressure if the beam fails. The 2x4 method ensures that minimal or no damage to the door itself if the downward pressure is not adjusted properly. Holding the door at knee, waist or even higher can both injure the tester and cause damage to the runners or track, if too much resistance to applied. That's a huge variable, whereas the 2x4 is not.

I have never, never in 30 years experienced any damage to a garage door using a 2x4 or similar across the threshold. Though I used to use a tennis or rubber ball instead.

For those who discount the 2x4 method and rely solely on beams, consider this. A step ladder placed across the threshold during maintenance, light hanging, painting etc will not obstruct the beam. Should the door be activated in error, any person on the ladder stands a real good chance of crush injury or even death if the downward pressure fails. Food for thought.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

What I keep saying is:

" b) do the force test IN ADDITION TO the 2x4 test "

..........

Again, I would promote the other tests that are part of the functionality of the operator and door.......

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Thank you for that clarification, now, clarify why not the other tests which could ...
.......There are many things which can contribute to crumpling of the door even when the force is properly set, and, again, that crumpling of the door can take place without even doing the 2x4 test - going back to the original post in this thread and the door crumpling while doing the force test. Your reasoning for doing the force test to prevent crumpling of the door just does not withstand the force being applied behind promoting it.

......You would, but you are not, you are singling out one test of the many tests which are "part of the functionality of the operator and door"

.

My position is and has been that many things need to be inspected and tested regarding a garage door, both visual and physical not just the downward force. Downward force testing is at the end of the list of all of the visual inspections and physical testing that are performed. Not something that you skip over other things to get to or only do.

Your position is that the testing the downward force is not needed nor appropriate. Relying solely on the finial test of the downward force reversal with a 2x4 on the floor. Which I disagree with.

My position is that the downward force test is the test that should immediately precede the final reversal test at the floor. Since the reversal protocol is predicated on reversal after contact and with in 2 seconds the amount of force exerted can be great enough to possibly damage the door.
Evaluating the downward force is something many HI do not attempt. Many HI seem not to be comfortable testing the reversal at the floor with a solid object for fear of damaging the door. We have heard about some using a roll of paper towels. Others only test the photo sensors with their foot. Just to mention a few examples.

I am not arguing for less testing, but for more. I have repeatedly explained why this particular test should be done. You have argued that it is only done if you are going to also adjust the settings. Which is wrong.

You are correct when you stated "There are many things which can contribute to crumpling of the door...". Which is why the entire door installation and operator installation must be inspected, requiring that the person performing the inspection must be able to identify every aspect of the installations as being correct or incorrect and the potential consequences if incorrect.

Again, what happened with the OP and the failure of the door was related to some factor that either was not recognized by the HI that should have stopped any further testing; or there was an inherent problem with the door or its installation that could not be seen resulting in the failure.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

My position is that the downward force test is the test that should immediately precede the final reversal test at the floor. Since the reversal protocol is predicated on reversal after contact and with in 2 seconds the amount of force exerted can be great enough to possibly damage the door.

And I repeat again - that down force test could cause that very same damage, so testing the down force does not accomplish anything.

From the original post which started this thread:

I then proceeded to open and then close the door, while standing inside and extending my forearms with bent elbows at waist height to allow the door to come down on my forearms to meet resistance and hopefully return up again. EPIC FAILURE!

He was effectively doing the 'down force test' ... the door suffered - in his terms - "EPIC FAILURE!"

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

And I repeat again - that down force test could cause that very same damage, so testing the down force does not accomplish anything.

From the original post which started this thread:


He was effectively doing the 'down force test' ... the door suffered - in his terms - "EPIC FAILURE!"[/FONT][/COLOR]

But we have no way of telling to what degree the installation was inspected nor the level of knowledge/experience the HI had prior to the test and subsequent failure.

As I said"Again, what happened with the OP and the failure of the door was related to some factor that either was not recognized by the HI that should have stopped any further testing; or there was an inherent problem with the door or its installation that could not be seen resulting in the failure."


The down force test was not the root of the problem.

Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells

But we have no way of telling to what degree the installation was inspected nor the level of knowledge/experience the HI had prior to the test and subsequent failure.
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The down force test was not the root of the problem.

You are stuck in a groove, like an old worn out 78 rpm record, you cannot have it both ways "we have no way of telling" and "The down force test was not" ... either admit that you don't know, or admit that you are simply making it up as you go along trying to justify your position.

You keep repeating yourself like that old worn out record, the off switch appears to be broken too, so I guess the best thing I can do is to unplug it and put that old record player away in the closet.

Hopefully that old record player does not have a battery to keep it going - I don't recall seeing 'Everready' or a bunny on it.

The failure in the OP was not the result of the down force test. There was something wrong with the door or how it was installed.

If all is right with the door installation, meeting resistance (blockage) of movement that should trigger reversal should not cause the door to fail. Just reverse direction. It does not matter where the door is in the cycle of closing, first foot or last foot. Else no door could survive the test. Something was wrong with the installation or the door and operator..

Doors and operators are designed to operate through many different functions. Should you not expect that the door and operator be able to perform those functions on day one as yell as after ten years; provided that the installation is correct and the material has not deteriorated, been damaged/abused or not maintained?