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  1. #1
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    Default residential exit

    Does a 30" patio set qualify as a residential exit door?

    I say no.

    Comments?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: residential exit

    No, but ...

    Is that the ONLY exit door?

    Basically speaking, the door needs to be a standard 3-0 x 6-8 door to meet minimum height and width requirements.

    An also be side hinged.

    Sliding glass doors are automatically not an exit/egress door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Thanks for the reply.

    Space is "habitable space" built into corner of a bigger ag buidling.

    Local inspector has busted the owner/builder and wants the space to meet residential, I guess treating it as a house with a garage.

    Local inspector refuses (because he doesn't understand his job) to inspect any existing building, so makes owner hire me to give him a checklist to bring space to sfd status.

    Only other exit is a 2-8 door into the ag space.

    I found so many items missing I just wrote him a hellfire argument over the use, calling it an ag building with amenities.

    I have heard that they worked out a settlement but the owner was unwilling to make all the modifications the space needed to meet.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by jim baird View Post
    Space is "habitable space" built into corner of a bigger ag buidling.
    .
    .

    I found so many items missing I just wrote him a hellfire argument over the use, calling it an ag building with amenities.
    Define "habitable space".

    What is in it?

    Is it a "bunkhouse" in the ag building? (with sleeping area)

    Or is it just "recreation room"/"man cave"? (no sleeping area)

    Sounds like it could be a mixed occupancy building at that point, and the Building Code would apply instead of the Residential Code, with the residential sections of the Building Code possibly being applicable to that space - or not (depends on the use of the space).

    Regardless, though, the minimum egress exit size would be the same, and if that has a "sleeping area" (such as a bunkhouse), then it would need an EERO.

    Not enough information wass given here to guess about more than that.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Thanks Jerry. I wasn't asking about anything but opinions on patio sets.

    The building is a hot mess and the inspector is a little man with a little authority.

    He can't even grasp ideas like mixed use etc.

    In our state we have to use nfpa 101 to establish occupancy, but that code does not address separation.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by jim baird View Post
    Thanks Jerry. I wasn't asking about anything but opinions on patio sets.
    Jim,

    And that is why I was clarifying what I was referring to.

    "patio sets" could mean "sliding glass doors" or "double french doors" - thus why I clarified the side hinged door aspect, and then the heights and widths.

    Added with edit: a "patio set" could also be a sliding french door look (6, 9, etc lites in the doors which slide instead of hinged/swing).

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 08-09-2018 at 03:33 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Sliding glass doors are automatically not an exit/egress door.
    Hey Jerry, is this stipulated or assumed based on process of elimination or? just curious..

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Hey Jerry, is this stipulated or assumed based on process of elimination or? just curious..
    Marc,

    Stipulated - the code specifies what is required for an egress door: minimum height, width, side hinged, etc in R311.2.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: residential exit

    A slider would be OK as long as there was at least one that met the code - CORRECT??? I haven't looked it up, but I thought that you only had to have one exit door that met the requirements.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    A slider would be OK as long as there was at least one that met the code - CORRECT??? I haven't looked it up, but I thought that you only had to have one exit door that met the requirements.
    Jack,

    A residence is required to have one door that meets the requirements of egress door. After that, it can be ridiculous narrow sliders.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    No, but ...

    Is that the ONLY exit door?

    Basically speaking, the door needs to be a standard 3-0 x 6-8 door to meet minimum height and width requirements.

    An also be side hinged.

    Sliding glass doors are automatically not an exit/egress door.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Marc,

    Stipulated - the code specifies what is required for an egress door: minimum height, width, side hinged, etc in R311.2.
    Sounds good.. TY

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist View Post
    A residence is required to have one door that meets the requirements of egress door. After that, it can be ridiculous narrow sliders.
    Or a doggy door (as long as it meets EERO sizes where an EERO is required).

    After stating the minimum requirements for the egress door, the IRC states: "Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions."

    Not sure how "dimensions" got transferred over to going from "side hinged" to allowing sliding doors ... but sliding doors are allowed for doors which area "other doors" (other than the one required "egress door").

    Are all doors allowed to meet egress door size requirements? Absolutely, and I would think that would be common sense (setting aside that 'side hinged' aspect to allow for sliding doors).

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 08-16-2018 at 07:38 AM. Reason: tweaked the wording in the last part to read better
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Or a doggy door (as long as it meets EERO sizes where an EERO is required).

    After stating the minimum requirements for the egress door, the IRC states: "Other doors shall not be required to comply with these minimum dimensions."

    Not sure how "dimensions" got transferred over to going from "side hinged" to allowing sliding doors ... but sliding doors are allowed for doors which area "other doors" (other than the one required "egress door").

    Are all doors allowed to meet egress door size requirements? Absolutely, and I would think that would be common sense (setting aside that 'side hinged' aspect to allow for sliding doors).
    How many side hinged sliders have YOU seen? I never seen any.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by jim baird View Post
    How many side hinged sliders have YOU seen? I never seen any.
    "Side hinged sliders" seems like an oxymoron at first glance, but ...

    ... I'm sure that you've seen lots of "side hinged sliders" but didn't pay attention to what you were looking at.

    Every Big Box and other store with slider doors ... there will be a sign on them stating "In case of emergency PUSH".

    Those sliders are side hinged.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "Side hinged sliders" seems like an oxymoron at first glance, but ...

    ... I'm sure that you've seen lots of "side hinged sliders" but didn't pay attention to what you were looking at.

    Every Big Box and other store with slider doors ... there will be a sign on them stating "In case of emergency PUSH".

    Those sliders are side hinged.

    Links?

    Some window makers put egress stickers on their product. Do these you mention say they meet anyone's code as "exit"?

    - - - Updated - - -


  16. #16
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by jim baird View Post
    Links?

    Some window makers put egress stickers on their product. Do these you mention say they meet anyone's code as "exit"?
    Here is a video, notice the "In Emergency Push Open" on the door. The video does not show the "push open" function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXNIIk56FyE

    This video shows the push open function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHrhqHh2N8Q

    And, yes, I realize that we have gone from residential to commercial uses and egress doors, but that was a natural progression of a discussion about side hinge doors and then going to sliding glass doors used for egress/exit and the side hinged requirement.

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Morning Jim. Colleagues.
    Getting back to occupancy. What classification will this "space" be categorized under?
    Sorry for the edit.
    Jim, you mention, "Habitable space.
    The 2015 ICC: R304.1Minimum HabitableRoom Area.
    media.iccsafe.org/news/eNews/2014v11n20/2015_irc_sigchanges_p46-7.pdf
    CHANGE SIGNIFICANCE: The IRC sets minimum requirements for ahealthy interior living environment, including provisions for room size,ceiling height, light, ventilation, and heating. The code has long provideda minimum room area of 120 square feet for at least one habitable roomwith all other habitable rooms having a floor area not less than 70 squarefeet. Most modern homes have rooms that exceed those dimensions, butthe intent has been to at least provide a small 12-foot by 10-foot living roomwith one or more bedrooms measuring approximately 7 feet by 10 feet.The requirement for one habitable room with a minimum floor area of 120square feet has been removed from the code. The 70-square-foot minimumarea now applies to all habitable rooms as the smallest acceptable size foroccupants to move about and use the habitable space as intended. Theminimum area of 120 square feet was not based on scientific analysis oron identified safety hazards but was generally accepted by code users andin the marketplace. Recently, however, proponents of minimalist livinghave advocated smaller dwellings to reduce environmental impact andprovide for lower living costs through reduced mortgage and maintenanceexpenses. These dwellings are intended to allow for a minimalist lifestylethat doesn’t demand large volumes of living space. ...


    Last edited by ROBERT YOUNG; 09-19-2018 at 04:21 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    Morning Jim. Colleagues.
    Getting back to occupancy. What classification will this "space" be categorized under?
    The IRC (Residential Code) has no "0ccupancy" classifications or groups - the IRC is only applicable to one-family and two-family dwellings ... and townhouses (which are attached one-family).

    No occupancy classification or group.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The IRC (Residential Code) has no "0ccupancy" classifications or groups - the IRC is only applicable to one-family and two-family dwellings ... and townhouses (which are attached one-family).

    No occupancy classification or group.
    I concur.
    To better explain myself, Jim's #5 posts refers to, "In our state we have to use (NFPA, National Fire Protection Codes & Standards,) to establish occupancy, but that code does not address separation.
    So if any, what does the NFPA address this space as?

    A habitable space is defined.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: residential exit

    Quote Originally Posted by ROBERT YOUNG View Post
    So if any, what does the NFPA address this space as?
    That's part of the problem - without going back and reviewing all of the posts, I don't recall that it has been established just what code is applicable, I replied to your comment about referencing the IRC.

    It may, or may not, be an IRC building.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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