Thread: Rust in stucco

Is rust in the cracks of stucco created by the metal lath rusting and bleeding through the cracks? This is the conclusion I have come to. Agree or disagree. Just curious on how you report. Cracks were <1/16 inch.

Mat

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I would like to get an INFRARED CAMERA on that.

You got some kind of a moisture condition in that stucco.
FURTHER INSPECTION REQUIRED. Moisture meter and an INFRARED Would help. What the roof line like above this?

Any stains or moisture on the inside ?

Best

Ron

After looking at the photos one more time thats an inside corner with a gutter down spout. go up top and look at that valley of the roof.

Suspect area.

Best

Ron

It's really hard to tell from the pictures that you have posted as to what's going on. If rust is bleeding through, you are probably correct about the mesh or even nails causing the problem.

Traditional sand based stucco is going to absorb water... and dry out, so I don't think an I-Cam is going to help. Unless, the rust problem is in a specific area and you think there is a possibility that the water problem is coming from something other than natural absorbtion.

How old is that house?

The expanded metal lath is supposed to have been corrosion protected such that that should not be happening for a very long time.

It is also quite likely, in fact 'most probable', that the stucco/metal lath/drainage plane at all incorrect (because few are installed correctly - starting with the building wrap, then the lapping of the paper and metal lath over each other, followed by the attachment of the lath, and ending with the proper application of the stucco).

Frequently, the lath is either upside down or rotated at a 90 degree angle or just rotated off the horizontal to match the slope of the roof on gable ends - expanded metal lath is required to be, it is designed and intended to be, installed horizontally on vertical surfaces, and with the right side 'up', not 'down'.

That looks like EIFS. Are you sure it's stucco?

That might not be rust. However it certainly is a sign that you have/had water in that wall. The brown stains could and are most likely from the wood in the wall leaching out tannins as it rots.

As you are in Utah and you have a great deal of EIFS in your area and the resorts, are you sure that is stucco?

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

The brown stains could and are most likely from the wood in the wall leaching out tannins as it rots.

Not sure about EIFS as I don't see any, but, if stucco (or even if EIFS?), the only way to see those tannins would be if there was not building wrap and no paper behind the metal lath, unless both of those have also failed miserably.

If it is stucco and if those are tannins from the wood, that would indicate that the stucco was indeed horribly installed, worse than I suspected.

With EIFS, the old barrier type, was there a protective building wrap separating that from the wood sheathing?

The new drainable EIFS has that as well as a drainage plane (as I understand it) which would make it more like stucco - two layers of protection, with the drainage plane being between them.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

With EIFS, the old barrier type, was there a protective building wrap separating that from the wood sheathing?

The new drainable EIFS has that as well as a drainage plane (as I understand it) which would make it more like stucco - two layers of protection, with the drainage plane being between them.

With the old barrier systems they had no protective wrap. The foam was glued or fastened to the substrate (OSB about 90% of the time). Then it was coated with a basecoat (suppose to be the waterproofing part of the system) and then the lamina or finish coat was to add the final waterproofing to the system.

So the water seeps in and is locked in place!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

With the old barrier systems they had no protective wrap. The foam was glued or fastened to the substrate (OSB about 90% of the time).

YIKES!

No wonder it was so bad.

Thanks for all the info. The house is seven years old and that is stucco not EIFS. Furtermore, the rust was limited to that area. A valley with a small gutter and kick out flashing was located above the area of concern. My guess is probably Ice damming and ice build up this winter saturated the wall. However due to our very dry climate the moisture is no longer detectable. I checked the area with my flir and moisture meter but got nothing. Any additional thoughts.

Mat

You may try a water test in the area. and they recheck with the Meter and IR.

Best

Ron

That could work, although I recommended further evaluation. Something is not right there. Furthermore, I used to live in the area and the builder has some stucco issues in the past when the project first started.

Scott,

When you mention the "old barrier system", I wonder how often you come across the "new water managed" or "drainable" systems. I know that you are familier with EIFS and wonder what you come across where you are. I do more EIFS inspections than standard home inspections, and I'm sorry to say that I've yet to see a drainable system installed on a residential property.

It amazes me that after all the problems that have been associated with barrier systems, and even with some of the banks refusing financing on homes with barrier systems... years after drainable systems have been introduced, I still don't see them.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

Scott,

When you mention the "old barrier system", I wonder how often you come across the "new water managed" or "drainable" systems. I know that you are familier with EIFS and wonder what you come across where you are. I do more EIFS inspections than standard home inspections, and I'm sorry to say that I've yet to see a drainable system installed on a residential property.

It amazes me that after all the problems that have been associated with barrier systems, and even with some of the banks refusing financing on homes with barrier systems... years after drainable systems have been introduced, I still don't see them.

I seldom see a drainable system and if I do they are installed wrong. They are still leaving out the flashing details and proper sealants around the penetrations.

I have an EIFS inspection on Monday on a new home. Small amount of EIFS on some dormers, under the front porch and I think on a gable over the front door. It is suppose to be a drainable system from what the builder has told me. We shall see. FYI, the only reason they are having an EIFS inspection is that they had the home inspected and their home inspector would not even look at the EIFS, disclaimed it and told them to have a professional EIFS inspection! So now they get to pay me a few hundred dollars for me to spend about thirty minutes at the home and to write a short letter report, because their inspector didn't know about EIFS.

I'm constantly amazed at how many home inspectors disclaim EIFS during a normal inspection, yet they will not say anything when it comes to other types of claddings. Learning about EIFS is not rocket science, you just need to know what to look for and understand that about 95&#37; of all installations are wrong.

Stucco base cote with acrylic finish!

The Quions and the rest of the trim on the house should have the top sloped instead of flat!

No doubt a moisture problem above.

If they applied the finish before the basecote cured out that could help promote alot of cracking.

If they did the stucco before the sheetrock was hung it would also promote cracking.

Swelling OSB/vertical mulch also promotes cracking.

Hopefully it does not look like some of these under the stucco!

Slide 1

Could be a number of things or a combination of problems. But it is for sure "Further evaluation by a certified stucco / EIFS inspector". IR would be helpful and could determine extent of moisture behind stucco / in wall, but it will still need to be confirmed with probe moisture meter.
Cracks indicate stucco too thin. (should be 7/8 inch) and / or insufficient drying time between coats.
Stains could be moisture behind stucco rusting the wire lath and bleeding out or OSB tea. (Vertical mulch getting wet causing stains)
Either way moisture should not be behind stucco.
Great forum, great information.

Remember Utah hosted the winter olympics? 2000 or 2002? They built a lot housing in a short time.
I have a friend that is a painter who lives in Ogden. He said that the construction during the time prior to the olympics was huge with a lot of out of state contractors with little knowledge of the effects of the harsh winters in Utah. The city inspectors were overwhelmed /overloaded with work. He said a lot of poor workmanship went un-inspected or not reported.

Was there some of this going on?

Any place you can see yellow/OSB/Vertical mulch in these pictures there is a problem!

After the stucco and or fauxstone is applied how will the inspectors have a clue?

improperprep

These are from the KC Metro!


This one is in Utah!

http://www.mongermusic.com/side-small.jpg

Originally Posted by carl brown

Slide 1

Carl,

Did you notice, on slide 16, where they were pointing out that the lath does not wrap the corner, that the lath on the right side of the corner is turned 90 degrees from horizontal (lath is designed, intended, and required to be installed horizontal, with the right side up too).

Also on slide 18, those two strips being pointed out with the gap between them ... they are installed turned 90 degrees from the horizontal.

Slide 19 shows the entire wall that way, and that's not the reason they posted that photo, they are only pointing it out because of the cracking, not because the stucco could come loose and fall off.

That problem, and other problems which they do not point out, are in many slides.

Scott,

I'm not a bit surprised that you seldom see a drainable system... I almost never see them, and totally agree... when I do, something has been done or left out that impedes the system's ability to drain.

I agree that most systems, even Barrier systems, are installed wrong.

It is wise to refer EIFS inspections to certified EIFS inspectors , I advocate progress inspections prior to and during the installation process.

Jerry,

The lath running the wrong direction as per ASTM specs is the least of the problems. It does not keep the wall from rotting out. Even over fastening of the lath does not keep the wall from rotting out.

Improper moisture barriers and flashings do make the wall rot out.

Thats the focal pointe for now.

The other things you mention do matter!

Originally Posted by carl brown

Jerry,

The lath running the wrong direction as per ASTM specs is the least of the problems. It does not keep the wall from rotting out. Even over fastening of the lath does not keep the wall from rotting out.

The problem with the lath being placed or installed in the wrong orientation is that the base coat will not adhere properly. Gravity then takes over and the area will start to delaminate or pull away from the lath. I have seen this a few time over the years and once you see it you will understand why it is important to have the lath running in the proper direction.

Over fastening will also cause problems. All of those nail, staples or whatever will destroy the underlayment and then the water will seep in through the mass of holes that have been created when the lath was installed.

Improper moisture barriers and flashings do make the wall rot out.

This is true and the most common.

Sorry Scott! I called you Jerry.

I am not saying what you have posted is wrong! Discussions are good for every body. If the cement is keyed good to the lath it will not fall off!

What way does lath run on an open canopy that is tied to iron?

Cups up our down?

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

I seldom see a drainable system and if I do they are installed wrong. They are still leaving out the flashing details and proper sealants around the penetrations.

I have an EIFS inspection on Monday on a new home. Small amount of EIFS on some dormers, under the front porch and I think on a gable over the front door. It is suppose to be a drainable system from what the builder has told me. We shall see. FYI, the only reason they are having an EIFS inspection is that they had the home inspected and their home inspector would not even look at the EIFS, disclaimed it and told them to have a professional EIFS inspection! So now they get to pay me a few hundred dollars for me to spend about thirty minutes at the home and to write a short letter report, because their inspector didn't know about EIFS.

I'm constantly amazed at how many home inspectors disclaim EIFS during a normal inspection, yet they will not say anything when it comes to other types of claddings. Learning about EIFS is not rocket science, you just need to know what to look for and understand that about 95% of all installations are wrong.

I don't know about all training schools, but at ITA we were advised to always defer EIFS to a specialist. Why? We were told the following: 1) History of problems with EIFS 2) HIs don't normally carry a deep penetration moisture meter 3) EIFS can look great but substructure and sheathing can be rotten, 4) Most problems were due to improper installation. Since I have not personally have had to deal with it yet, I'll just set back and see what comes up in this thread.

P.S. EIFS and stucco are not common in my neck of the woods.

I agree that most systems, even Barrier systems, are installed wrong.

It's not "most" here, but all that are installed wrong. Barrier, drainage, 2-coat, 3-coat, all are installed wrong and all of the time. It is, after all, the same dumb-ass subcontractors that do all of the installation and repair work. How then, could it be any different?

Aaron

Originally Posted by carl brown

If the cement is keyed good to the lath it will not fall off!

It *will* fall off or come loose if the cups are not down. It *does* matter which way the lath if run.

What way does lath run on an open canopy that is tied to iron?

Cups up our down?

The previous discussion was about vertical surfaces and gravity, with the lath run on horizontal surfaces, the stucco is keyed behind the lath helping resist gravity.

On vertical surfaces, with the cups down, the stucco is being 'pulled' by gravity toward the wall, with the cups up, the stucco is being 'pulled' by gravity away from and off the wall (with 'cups up' you have created a 'slides down' condition).

And, with the cups down, the paper/lath lap is as intended. With cups up, the paper/lath lap is backward. I'm sure you've looked at paper backed metal lath - which way does the paper/lath offset to provide paper-over-paper and metal-over-metal? Cups down also provides that proper setup (which, of course, can still be done wrong, but at least the paper backed metal lath is assembled to provide the correct paper/lath lap with cups down - with cups up, everything is against you from the start).

Now, turning the paper backed metal lath sideways, that is another matter altogether, you are getting the worst of everything.

Aaron,

Yes, I have to agree that "all" may be a better description to use than most. I have yet to come across an EIFS installation that had no installation faults... regardless of if it were a "Barrier" or Water managed" installation.

It think the problem really stems from the fact that most EIFS installers are simply stucco men that are using a different product. I believe none have any real EIFS training. They really haven't a clue.

I've thought about starting an installation company... installing it properly... and charging about double. The problem is, most... no lets use your word..."all" homowners have no idea about the product, until it is too late. Most go for the price.

Jerry,

If all thats true which way do the cups run on the chicken wire they use out west?

Paper back lath is a bad product from the get go! imo

Originally Posted by carl brown

Jerry,

If all thats true which way do the cups run on the chicken wire they use out west?

Depends on the chickens they are trying to keep cooped in.

Paper back lath is a bad product from the get go! imo

Using paper backed metal lath without a drainage plane behind it (the most common installation using paper backed metal lath) is the root of most of the evils associated with poor performance of paper backed metal lath.

Using a drainage plane behind the paper of the paper backed metal lath seems to be a novel idea, except that it is also a requirement, and has been from day one. The paper of paper backed metal lath *is not* *the drainage plane*. The paper allows the stucco to properly key into the metal lath and serves as a bond breaker between the stucco and the drainage plane behind it, allowing for actual drainage behind the paper and in front of the drainage plane.

Most complaints against paper backed metal lath are from people who say 'What are you talking about?' when told that the paper of paper backed metal lath *is not* *the drainage plane*, that another product (i.e., building wrap, felt paper, etc.) needs to be installed over the substrate prior to the installation of the paper back metal lath to serve as the actual drainage plane.

To bad the city codes officials do not understand about the moisture barriers!

apartments need love too (and Good Stucco)! - apartments need love too (and Good Stucco)!

See any problems here?

Originally Posted by carl brown

See any problems here?

Yep, just what I said was "the root of most of the evils associated with poor performance of paper backed metal lath."

And these?

wavey walls, lax lath, and much much more!

I'm curious. Does the third slide show part of a window? Is the trim nailed or screwed directly into the stucco/EIFS. Looks like a painted trim and header job, no drip, no caulk!

Maybe I need new glasses

Rick

Carl,

I know what you mean, 3rd slide, lath at an angle, lather says 'What? What do you mean that has to be installed horizontally? It fits just right like this.'

'Yeah, guy, but it is not installed correctly and the stucco could come loose, you want to chip all the stucco off in 2-3 years or so, rip the lath off, then install new lath horizontally the right way and then re-stucco, or ... do you want to just rip that lath off now and do it right this time?

Besides, you are not passing your lath inspection with it like that.'

In this picture?

wavey walls, lax lath, and much much more! - 024_21dumpcart

Yes for me, but I'm not sure you are asking me.

Jerry,

What about the paper and lath joint about 10 inches below the control joint!

Paper on paper and metal on metal.


Who ever said they do lath inspections where these pictures were taken?

Carl,

I was just pointing out the obvious, something which many think is okay (because they do not know that it is not okay) and would therefore not even take note of.

I've been waiting for someone to say 'What to h%ll is "cups down"?'

Jerry,

People learn alot just by others talking and posting!

Cups down is part of life! And your right when the cups are down things do sag and sometimes fall.

We have an issue with them using felt paper as a drainage plane which then fails to separate from the stucco, as it is supposed to do, and the moisture cannot move down the wall. As well the glue application to the substrate is applied horizontally instead of vertically which also traps the moisture causing behind the wall moisture/rot issues. I never see a gap with backer rod and 20 year caulk at penetrations and I have had EIFS installers tell me they do not install a weep screed unless the client pays extra for it because it does not come standard. I find it very difficult to ever say EIFS has been correctly installed, I can only say, it is a matter of time before..............

Originally Posted by Michael Greenwalt

We have an issue with them using felt paper as a drainage plane which then fails to separate from the stucco, as it is supposed to do,

Whoaaaa.

As I stated above, the felt paper is not intended to be the drainage plane, there needs to be a drainage plane behind the paper backed metal lath, *that* is the drainage plane. *That* can be house wrap or even felt paper, but it is much more expensive (labor wise) to try to install felt as a house wrap - but it can be done.

and the moisture cannot move down the wall. As well the glue application to the substrate is applied horizontally instead of vertically which also traps the moisture causing behind the wall moisture/rot issues.

You never want the paper of the paper backed metal lath glued to the substrate, it needs to have that other material behind it as a drainage plane. Also, gluing the paper backed metal lath in place? Not sure if that is even approved (to my knowledge - it is not, but I'd have to check the ASTM standard to say for sure).

I never see a gap with backer rod and 20 year caulk at penetrations and I have had EIFS installers tell me they do not install a weep screed unless the client pays extra for it because it does not come standard. I find it very difficult to ever say EIFS has been correctly installed, I can only say, it is a matter of time before..............

Are we talking "stucco" here, or "EIFS"? I was talking "stucco" when I was replying, then you went to "EIFS" - so now I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Jerry,

EIFS,stucco,moisture barrier's,flashing!

How about some SICK BRICK??

Oh My Lord! This is SOOOOO Bad!

OH,MY GOD! There is so much wrong with these opinions, it's hard to know where to start!

Trying to diagnose(or even state what the system is) from a picture is the height of hubris. There are simply too many hybrid systems out there now to make a long distance judgement meaningful.

As long as the majority(95%) of the cups are up, then this is a minor issue. Properly applied plaster will key to the lath enough to prevent it from falling off.

All EIFS and Stucco is applied wrong???!!! This does a great disservice to the hundreds of thousands of skilled tradesmen left in this industry. You, Aaron,are an ******* and have no business inspecting others work. Without respect, there is no constructive dialog to be found here. Hope you don't find yourself alone outside the masons hall....

Barrier type EIFS was flawed to begin with, should have never been sold in residential applications. There are a lot of drainage systems out there now, but you know what? The average "inspector"( and I use the term loosely,Scott)can't tell them from barrier, or even from stucco!

You guys have waaayyy too much time on your hands, please leave the personal opinions out, and recommend a professional to render an opinion on site.

Originally Posted by John Carroll

As long as the majority(95%) of the cups are up, then this is a minor issue.

John,

Sorry chap, but you would lose in court on that one.

When one is doing things for litigation, or for potential litigation, " 95% " *IS NOT* "good enough".

Unless you can show me in the ASTM standards that 95% is okay, you blew you entire credibility of everything else you posted by your statements.

please leave the personal opinions out

Yet you gave your personal opinion?????

Typical of you, Jerry, focus on the minutia, ignore the rest....

Originally Posted by John Carroll

Typical of you, Jerry, focus on the minutia, ignore the rest....

John,

While I do focus on the minutiae (because in reality the minute things are what make up larger things), I also focus on the larger things, and when one (such as you) states "please leave the personal opinions out", then gives their personal opinion "As long as the majority(95%) of the cups are up, then this is a minor issue.", that leads a credibility gap in what you say.

Your response only served to widen that credibility gap.

Yuo'll notice my opinion stated it was a minor issue, not that it was a non issue. As in," well, some of the lath was installed upside down, but since there is no evidence of failure, let's let it go until there is", not " well, some of the lath is installed upside down, so let's tear off ALL the work and start over."
What you might notice, if you care to see, is an acceptance of the reality that not everything needs to be done perfectly, can provide a lifetime of service, and save everyone a lot of grief in the process...but I know that won't be good enuf for you, in your Ivory Tower, so just F.O.A.D. already.

Houses rot out all the time because the lath is on upside down and stapled to much!


Not because the moisture barrier's and flashing's are wrong!

Another reason I should take more than 2 minutes to dive into a complicated subject. Glad I don't do that on my reports,,,doah!

And I use pictures more,,helps explain it.

thanks for beating me about the head and shoulders

What direction do the cups run with this product?

What keeps the stucco from falling off?

Structa Wire Corporation

Lath is to stucco what rebar is to concrete!

Once the mud/plaster/cement is in place and set it is not going anywhere!

Originally Posted by carl brown

What direction do the cups run with this product?

I'm trying to figure out if you are asking because: a) you don't know; b) you are being silly; c) you are trying to be a smart a$$ ...

Answers:

a) There are no cups. Thus, there is no 'cup direction the cups need to be'. Instead of relying on cups to help hold and key the stucco, that product is a self furring product, meaning that the main field of the wire is supported out from the backing by the built-in furring ribs. This allows the stucco to be applied such that the wire is embedded within the stucco, acting as reinforcement. The other lath is "expanded metal", that product is "wire", welded (like WWM is) with formed in furring standoff ribs (which act like chairs). It is also called Structalath SF CR for a reason - the SF stands for "self-furring" and the CR stands for "cold rolled".

b) no need to answer that

c) read answer a), then read answer b)

Have a nice day!

Jerry

Carl, How exactly, does the house rot due to the lath being upside down?
Rot needs moisture to occur(usually, we're not talking about dry rot here) moisture must come from somewhere, doesn't it? In order for the lath staples to fall out of rotten wood, there must be a significant source of water either getting into the wall from outside, or leaking from a supply or drain pipe inside the wall cavity. Over stapling is a problem with unfurred lath because the plaster key is weaker, but unless the wall has a catastrophic failure somewhere, where does the moisture come from?

You are trying to blame stucco for problems beyond that scope of work. Loof first to the fenestrations, flashings, and water management components. The failure of stucco is only the symptom of a larger issue.

John,

Your right!

But I am by no means blaming stucco.

The jobs are set up to fail long before the stucco contractors get to them.

Potential non galvanized staples used to secure lath?? I recommend having a stucco contractor evluate and repair as needed.

Rolland Pruner Livermore, Cal