Thread: GArage door

Garage entry door to home. Is there a code that states it should open in. I can't find one. I know it should, in my opinion nayway.

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Nope, not that I am aware of.

Why do you think it should open in? (into the house or into the garage?)

Since it cannot be an egress door, I can't see that it would make much difference except for being blocked by cars and junk.

Same as a front door. To allow emergency access by bashing it in. Firecode

Agree with Jim, and besides most doors swinging out would probably be swinging over a step?

Originally Posted by wayne soper

Same as a front door. To allow emergency access by bashing it in. Firecode

Wayne,

No fire code requiring either.

Doors swinging in the direction of egress does not apply to dwelling units.

Also, as Jim said in his post, you are not allowed to have a required egress through a garage, thus, any door leading to a garage cannot be considered an egress door.

The egress door is required to lead outdoors or to a common corridor (such as condos) which has a specified fire rating. A garage is simply an different occupancy, one not suitable for use as a means of egress.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

besides most doors swinging out would probably be swinging over a step?

WC Jerry,

Most garage doors I've seen which swing into the garage swing over a raised floor level, typically 3' deep or greater. They use that raised floor area to install the mechanical equipment and water heater on.

Other than that, I also agree with Jim and you.

Thanks guys. I guess that just about covers it.

As an aside to the point of this thread do you think this house to garage door is code complying in regards to the steps?

Wayne,
I see this as a potential security issue. If a "bad guy" gets into the garage, he has an opportunity to gain access into the home by popping out the hinge pins, wiggeling the door out of the frame (depending on the type of locking device used) and he's in - no loud noise, no mess.

Brandon
The space under the door is huge, but that's not the point of my post. Are those steps code complying? (hint - think landing, needed or not?)

Geez Jerry,

You are fast. I posted that comment and erased it within seconds because I wanted to check the 2006 IRC first.

There are more than 2 risers, so a landing would be required on the garage side if it were a new construction home (concrete looks old)
I was ignoring the lack of a threshold, weatherstripping, etc. which is an obvious defect.

I get so many years worth of codes stuck in my head I often forget which requirement is the most recent. It gets confusing trying to keep track of it all. Life would be much simpler (sometimes safer, sometimes not) if codes were never changed

This ...

From the 2006 IRC.

- R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
(There are 3 Exceptions listed.)

... does not apply.

Why?

"There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door."m and that *is not* an "exterior door". Which is why it cannot be used as a means of egress, as discussed above.

So what does apply, then?

From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)
- R311.5.4 Landings for stairways.There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.
- - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
- - A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
- - The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

Okay, now, are the stairs in WC Jerry's photo code compliant (disregard the incomplete-under-construction aspect of the missing threshold, weather stripping, and any other obvious install-after-all-paint-touch-up-is-done items)?

I see this as a potential security issue. If a "bad guy" gets into the garage, he has an opportunity to gain access into the home by popping out the hinge pins, wiggeling the door out of the frame (depending on the type of locking device used) and he's in - no loud noise, no mess.

The doors that swing outside have the hinges outside but they are tamper proof. You can't knock the pins out. They install these types of doors here all the time.

If they are going to go through the problem of removing the door why not just knock out a window and unlock one. I can see this on TV now. There is a show that has stupid thieves.

Aha,

Thanks E. coast Jerry, I knew I was forgetting something-- I'll bet you I've read what you posted a hundred times, maybe it will stick after the next 100.

EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

it's hard for me to disern whether the door opening is from a garage. it seems that there is water at the bottom of the picture so i'm of the opinion that the steps to the door are code compliant since the door opens inward to floor level (a continuous surface and not double steps). as long as the person opening the door is able to safely open the door, i don't see a problem

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

the answer is yes it is code compliant, as pointed out in Jerry's code reference.

Christopher
Let me confirm it is a house to garage door opening and can you explain the basis on how you interpret the 2006 IRC building code confirms it’s compliant?

thanks guys for responding. Jerry, I am not refering to any code. I am new in this field and am doing an exersize on what I "see" and what I remember from 25yrs. ago as a genral contractor. As I stated before, a platform is not required if the door at the top of the steps opens inward and as I see it the garage floor should be "construed" as a "landing or floor level". Maybe I'm way of base. let me know. I wan't to learn all that I can and being 54 and wanting to learn more feels pretty good. the other considerations I had after Posted were 1) is there any Carbon Monoxide concerns here? You said attached. I'm wondering about the space from where the stairs lead. 2) The Rise of the steps in relation to the Run
was uniform and pretty level from what could see. Where I'm at now is looking for trip hazards. I see them
every where (even in my dreams) thanks chris

One more shot, how many think those steps into the garage are code complying and how many think they're not?

One more shot, how many think those steps into the garage are code complying and how many think they're not?

Well shoot,

I've been wrong once by applying the improper code, so might as well shoot for number 2.

I perused all of chapter 3 and can't find anything that would make those steps improper.

My vote is for code compliant.

They are fine. Just look at Jerry's exception.
- - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

Thanks David, I was beginning to worry when you would step forward?

Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.

Originally Posted by Roger Shafer

Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.

A door is not allowed to swing over a stair, whether the door swings inward to the interior over a stair or outward to the outdoors over a stair - that 4" difference is a stair, a one-riser stair, but a stair nonetheless (a "stair", by definition, consists of one or more risers):
- STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
- STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either exterior or interior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them, to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another.

A "stairway" consists of the "stair" and the "landings" which make up a flight of "stairs"; a "stairway" may also consist of more than one flight of stairs as may be necessary to get from one level to another level.

door is not swinging over stair.
Door is not exterior door
Door is OK Steps are OK
Jeez, how long ago did I start this thread.
Then again, they don't look to be 36" wide

Originally Posted by Roger Shafer

Does anyone know if a passage door that swings into the garage must have a landing 1.5" below the threshold? This door is 4" above the floor.

Originally Posted by wayne soper

door is not swinging over stair.

Yes it is in the post I was responding to.

Door is not exterior door

Interior OR EXTERIOR ... DOES NOT MATTER - a door *is not allowed to open over a stair ... period.

Door is OK

Yes ... the door ... is okay, but the swing of the door is not allowed to be over a stair.

Steps are OK

Yes ... as long as the swing of the door is not over the stair.

Jeez, how long ago did I start this thread.

Jeez, me thinks you need to read what is being replied to.

Didn't you even bother to read the quote in my post?

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

EC Jerry has posted the appropriate code and within that code is the clue I'm looking for you guys to find.
Now how about answering my/our question? Is that door from the house to into attached garage code compliant?
(prize for the right answer)

Just came accross this thread. If this door connects a habitable space to an attached garage, then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer. These issues are just as important as the stair/step issue.

Originally Posted by Donal Hughes

Just came accross this thread. If this door connects a habitable space to an attached garage, then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer. These issues are just as important as the stair/step issue.

"then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer"

However, if you were to say that it was "required" ... you would be incorrect (unless your local or state code included those requirements, but I am not aware of a code which includes those requirements - which does not mean that code does not exist, it only means "show me that code" ).

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"then IMO it should be 1) fire rated and 2) have a self-closer"

However, if you were to say that it was "required" ... you would be incorrect (unless your local or state code included those requirements, but I am not aware of a code which includes those requirements - which does not mean that code does not exist, it only means "show me that code" ).

This is the code I was referring to, perhaps the closer is not required in all jurisdictions:

"2006 International Building Code
Chapter 4, Special Detailed Requirements Based on the Use and Occupancy
Section 406 Motor Vehicle Related Occupancies
406.1 Private Garages and Carports.

406.1.4 Separation
1. The private garage shall be separated from the dwelling unit and its attic area by means of a minimum ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.

Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than a 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent.

Door openings between a private garage and the dwelling unit shall be equipped with either solid wood doors or solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (34.9 mm) thick, or doors in compliance with Section 715.4.3.
Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching."

I don't believe the 2006IRC requires the closer.

Originally Posted by Donal Hughes

This is the code I was referring to, perhaps the closer is not required in all jurisdictions:

"2006 International Building Code
Chapter 4, Special Detailed Requirements Based on the Use and Occupancy
Section 406 Motor Vehicle Related Occupancies
406.1 Private Garages and Carports.

406.1.4 Separation
1. The private garage shall be separated from the dwelling unit and its attic area by means of a minimum ½-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side.

Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than a 5/8-inch Type X gypsum board or equivalent.

Door openings between a private garage and the dwelling unit shall be equipped with either solid wood doors or solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (34.9 mm) thick, or doors in compliance with Section 715.4.3.
Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Doors shall be self-closing and self-latching."

I don't believe the 2006IRC requires the closer.

That code does not required either: a) a fire rated door, or b) a self-closing door. Read it again.

Then, remember that we are referring to houses (and townhouses), all of which are not under that code, they are under the residential code, but first, read that section again and you will see that neither is "required".

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

A door is not allowed to swing over a stair, whether the door swings inward to the interior over a stair or outward to the outdoors over a stair - that 4" difference is a stair, a one-riser stair, but a stair nonetheless (a "stair", by definition, consists of one or more risers):
- STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.
- STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either exterior or interior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them, to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another.

A "stairway" consists of the "stair" and the "landings" which make up a flight of "stairs"; a "stairway" may also consist of more than one flight of stairs as may be necessary to get from one level to another level.

I agree with Wayne. I don't know how you figure Roger's door is swinging over a stair - it's only over the "stair" when it's closed.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

That code does not required either: a) a fire rated door, or b) a self-closing door. Read it again.

Then, remember that we are referring to houses (and townhouses), all of which are not under that code, they are under the residential code, but first, read that section again and you will see that neither is "required".

Point taken and thanks for the clarification. Im new to this; must talk to my instructor where I took the course and let him know he's teaching something not in the code!
Must say this is a very useful forum.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Yes it is in the post I was responding to.



Interior OR EXTERIOR ... DOES NOT MATTER - a door *is not allowed to open over a stair ... period.



Yes ... the door ... is okay, but the swing of the door is not allowed to be over a stair.



Yes ... as long as the swing of the door is not over the stair.



Jeez, me thinks you need to read what is being replied to.

Didn't you even bother to read the quote in my post?

Yeah, you're right jerry, i got lost, thanks to one of you jerrys trying to confuse(teach) haha
As long as i got it right in the report, which i did
thanks for the slap in the face

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

I agree with Wayne. I don't know how you figure Roger's door is swinging over a stair - it's only over the "stair" when it's closed.

The "stair" is the "riser" ... how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

The door "swing" is between fully closed and fully open, and that "swing" is not allowed to be over the "stair" - the "riser" is the "stair" - not sure what is difficult to understand about that.

Maybe we're picturing this differently. As I picture it, the threshold is 4" above the floor of the garage, with nothing below. So when you step over the threshold into the garage, you step down 4". Roger is wondering if there should be a landing, so you don't step 4" down.

So, when the door is shut, it's very nearly over the riser. Open it, and it's over the floor.

Makes sense to me.

What's up with all the quotation marks? Doors swing. Stairs have risers. Perfectly common words.

*I* never *said* is was "swinging" when it was "closed." Maybe *you* should "read" more *carefully.* (Do you see how distracting those little marks can be? And how condescending that last bit can sound?)

....EDIT And now I'm wondering if a door in a wall with a threshold 4" above the floor actually does have a riser as such. There is no riser in the framing sense. The code definitions are circular: a stair has a riser, and a riser is a component of a stair. Unhelpful.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Maybe we're picturing this differently. As I picture it, the threshold is 4" above the floor of the garage, with nothing below. So when you step over the threshold into the garage, you step down 4". Roger is wondering if there should be a landing, so you don't step 4" down.

"so you don't step 4" down"

Exactly - so you don't open the door and the floor is 4" down below where the door swings.

Kristi,

Photos and drawings are frequently worth a thousand words ... or so it is said ... did my drawing help save a thousand follow up words?

Stair: A change in elevation consisting of one or more risers.STAIRWAY. One or more flights of stairs, either interior or exterior, with the necessary landings and platforms connecting them to form a continuous and uninterrupted passage from one level to another within or attached to a building, porch or deck. A personel door for a garage is an exit path FROM the garage (person in garage needs to get OUT of GARAGE in the event of smoke or fire in the garage), it is (never/) NOT an exit TO the garage. A means of egress/exit pathway may not be VIA a garage.

Jerry, your drawing is very clear, you did a lovely job! And it's just how I pictured it. But doesn't that contradict what you were saying earlier?

"how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? It is that way in your drawing! Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

The door "swing" is between fully closed and fully open, and that "swing" is not allowed to be over the "stair" - the "riser" is the "stair"
Right, and it's not!
- not sure what is difficult to understand about that."

And there's no necessity for the landing.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

Jerry, your drawing is very clear, you did a lovely job! And it's just how I pictured it. But doesn't that contradict what you were saying earlier?

"how can the door be "over" the "riser" when the door is closed? It is that way in your drawing!

au contrarire ... the door is over the level above when closed. The "riser" is strictly the vertical "rise" between levels, the 'riser' could be closed as shown, or it could be open as some stairs have open risers.

[I] Besides, *I* said "swing" "over the stair", how can a door "swing" when it is closed?

A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser.

And there's no necessity for the landing.

If it is installed as I drew it, then a landing *IS* *required* to be under where I drew the door in the open position. Essentially, the "riser" would need to be moved out past the end of the door in the open position, providing 'at least' a 36" landing if the door is a 36" door or less. If the door is wider, or projects outward more than 36" when fully open, then the landing needs to be 'at least' the outermost edge of the door.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

au contrarire ... the door is over the level above when closed. The "riser" is strictly the vertical "rise" between levels, the 'riser' could be closed as shown, or it could be open as some stairs have open risers. No - a stairway with no risers has no risers, period. A riser is a component of a stair. You are equating "rise" with "riser" and that's wrong. Your drawing shows the garage side of the door flush with the wall, which in this case is acting as the riser (though I don't consider it actually a riser)...the door when shut is over the "riser."



A does not "swing" when it is closed, the door "swing" is from being open to being closed - the door swing is anyplace between fully open and fully closed. And that swing is not allowed to be out over a riser.
And as you show it, the moment the door swings, it leaves the step - or part does, anyway. I suppose it could be argued that it's only actually beyond the step when it's perpendicular to the wall.




If it is installed as I drew it, then a landing *IS* *required* to be under where I drew the door in the open position. Essentially, the "riser" would need to be moved out past the end of the door in the open position, providing 'at least' a 36" landing if the door is a 36" door or less. If the door is wider, or projects outward more than 36" when fully open, then the landing needs to be 'at least' the outermost edge of the door.

I understand the code, but this argument has reached the point of silliness, I think. We'll have to simply disagree.

Originally Posted by wayne soper

Garage entry door to home. Is there a code that states it should open in. I can't find one. I know it should, in my opinion nayway.

Wow! it has been a long time since this started so lets throw another aspect into the equation:
From a fire perspective, the goal is to protect the dwelling from a fire in the garage. So, if the fire is in the garage, would the door swinging towards the fire, have a better seal from smoke traveling into the dwelling with the stops on the dwelling side?

Originally Posted by Gary Bottomley

Wow! it has been a long time since this started so lets throw another aspect into the equation:
From a fire perspective, the goal is to protect the dwelling from a fire in the garage. So, if the fire is in the garage, would the door swinging towards the fire, have a better seal from smoke traveling into the dwelling with the stops on the dwelling side?

Nope, a 20 minute rated door is a 20 minute rated door from both sides, not one.

Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy

As an aside to the point of this thread do you think this house to garage door is code complying in regards to the steps?

Missing handrail, 3 or more risers. BTW what is the depth on the treads?

I hate to extend this subject, but my last new house garage door had windows and no closer. Have codes changed to SOLID -SOLID door now? tks

Originally Posted by Door Guy

Missing handrail, 3 or more risers. BTW what is the depth on the treads?

A handrail is needed for 4 or more risers, no?

I'd like to withdraw my objection to the phrase "open riser." My apologies, JP.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

A handrail is needed for 4 or more risers, no?

I'd like to withdraw my objection to the phrase "open riser." My apologies, JP.

Oops... Yep 4 or more...

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

I understand the code, but this argument has reached the point of silliness, I think. We'll have to simply disagree.

Here is one last attempt to convey the problem - see the revised drawing.

Whenever a door swings out over a stair, even a single-riser stair as is at that exterior door, when going through a door which swings away from them, a person expects to step through that and have their foot land at the same level as where the other foot is at. When the floor surface is not there and the foot continues downward, a person feels as though something is not right, that they should already have landed the foot on solid ground, not continue ‘falling’ through the air. By the time the foot actually lands on the solid ground, the brain may be trying to help the body ‘catch its balance’ when, in fact, the body is really is not falling through the air – the reflexes which are generated from that may then result in a fall trying to ‘catch oneself’ when there is no ‘catching’ to be done.

That feeling and the reflexes happen frequently with no ill results – you don’t fall, you just feel like you looked foolish jerking around to catch yourself for no reason. Sometimes, though, you do fall.

If you’ve ever walked up or down a stairway which has one or more steps which are not the same height as the rest of the steps, then you probably understand the feeling of the next step not being where you thought it would be, your foot lands on the next step either too soon (the riser is shorter than the others) or too late (the riser is taller than the others).

It does create a hazard and that is why the code requires riser heights to be within 3/8” of each other in a stairway, and why the code requires a landing on each side of a door (with some exceptions if the door does not swing over the stair, i.e., the door swings over the higher floor). If the door in the drawing had its swing such that the door swung in over the upper floor/landing, then you would simply be opening a door and going down a stair.

Originally Posted by james hiatt

I hate to extend this subject, but my last new house garage door had windows and no closer. Have codes changed to SOLID -SOLID door now? tks

What change? It has always required a "SOLID -SOLID door". No window allowed, no pet door allowed, no openings allowed.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

What change? It has always required a "SOLID -SOLID door". No window allowed, no pet door allowed, no openings allowed.

What about fire rated glass?

Jerry, I don't see how opening the door into the house and stepping down once to the garage floor is different from opening the door into the garage and stepping down. Either way you have to anticipate the step. I still don't see how the door is opening over stairs.

I know all about inconsisent riser height, it's one of the things I look for. Stairs are big sources of insurance hazards.

R311.7.6 "Landings for stairways.
There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. The minimum width perpendicular to the direction of travel shall be no less than the width of the flight served. Landings of shapes other than square or rectangular shall be permitted provided the depth at the walk line and the total area is not less than that of a quarter circle with a radius equal to the required landing width. Where the stairway has a straight run, the minimum depth in the direction of travel shall be not less than 36 inches (914 mm).

Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs. "

There are no stairs for it to swing over! There's no stairway to put a landing at the top of! Or what part of the code are you referring to?

Originally Posted by Door Guy

What about fire rated glass?

You would only find that in a fire-rated door, and a fire-rated door has not been what the discussion is about.

However, if the door we were discussing was a fire-rated door, then you could have fire-rated glass in it *as long as the glass met the required size limitations* ... but that would be a no-brainer when discussing a fire-rated door.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

There are no stairs for it to swing over! There's no stairway to put a landing at the top of! Or what part of the code are you referring to?

Kristi,

You don't see the stair in my drawing?

So you understand what a "stair" is?

Please describe what you think a "stair" is: _______________________

My point is that as you picture it, the door doesn't swing over stairs (note the code uses the plural), it swings over the garage floor. If it were as shown in my drawing (not so nice as yours, I'm afraid), I wouldn't have a problem with saying it needed a landing. As I see it, part of the reason for a landing is so you don't have to back down multiple stairs in order to open the door (from the garage side, in this case). Your argument that people will step into space blindly, not seeing there's a drop, is unlikely, IMO. Usually there's a threshold under a door to the garage, and it's more probable that anyone unfamiliar with the garage is going to glance down anyway to see how high they have to step over the threshold. Or they'll notice the rest of the garage floor and note that it's lower, or they'll think, Boy, that minivan has gotten 6" more mini - what's going on here?...and they'll look down and see there's a step.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

My point is that as you picture it, the door doesn't swing over stairs (note the code uses the plural),

The plural "s" does not make any difference:

- R201.2 Interchangeability. Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular.

First, review the definition of a "stair" (*one* or more risers), then look at the use of the plural "stairways", i.e., each and every "stairway" (also refer to the definition of "stairway").

A "stair" is one or more risers.

A "stairway" is the entire flight of "stairs", and includes one or more flights of stairs with the necessary landings which connect everything together to form a continuous passage from one level to another level.

A "stair" could be 12 risers from landing to landing and that becomes a "flight of stairs", add a second "flight of stairs" such that the first flight starts at one level, there is an intermediate landing, then a second "flight of stairs", and you end at the next level. That entire assembly of components is a "stairway", and if you have a "stairway" at one end of a hall and another "stairway" at the other end of that hall, you then have two "stairwayS".

it swings over the garage floor.

Not until it swings out over the riser, and one riser is a "stair", thus the door swings out over the "stair".

If it were as shown in my drawing (not so nice as yours, I'm afraid), I wouldn't have a problem with saying it needed a landing. As I see it, part of the reason for a landing is so you don't have to back down multiple stairs in order to open the door (from the garage side, in this case).

Your reason is incorrect, the code does not care whether there is *one* stair there or if there is a flight of stair there.

I know that you are smart from your posts, so therefore it is I who must not be doing well at describing what is required and why, otherwise you would have already "gotten it". My apologies for having failed you in my efforts to explain what the code is saying - maybe someone else will step in with different words which will allow you to see and understand what is being said in the code.

As we both know, there are parts of the code that people interpret differently, for whatever reason. Maybe this is one of those parts. I'd be very interested to hear how others interpret it.


It doesn't matter if it's plural, to me there is no stair it swings over, it swings over floor. When closed, it's on the edge of a stair. You're right that I don't understand what you're thinking.

True, I shouldn't have said the reason is because you'd have to back down multiple stairs - even one is a hazard, more so than stepping forward and down one stair into the garage. How many people are going to open an unfamiliar door and not notice that the next room is at an entirely different level? (Probably the same people who would trip over a the stair to a landing!) A far different situation from inconsistent riser height.

Originally Posted by Kristi Silber

As we both know, there are parts of the code that people interpret differently, for whatever reason. Maybe this is one of those parts. I'd be very interested to hear how others interpret it.


It doesn't matter if it's plural, to me there is no stair it swings over, it swings over floor. When closed, it's on the edge of a stair. You're right that I don't understand what you're thinking.

True, I shouldn't have said the reason is because you'd have to back down multiple stairs - even one is a hazard, more so than stepping forward and down one stair into the garage. How many people are going to open an unfamiliar door and not notice that the next room is at an entirely different level? (Probably the same people who would trip over a the stair to a landing!) A far different situation from inconsistent riser height.

I'm not getting what JP is saying either, I assume the garage floor as one big landing. Maybe I'm missing something?? It seems adding a landing in that situation just adds a step that is not needed and could in itself add a trip hazard. Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

I'm not getting what JP is saying either,

Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________

I assume the garage floor as one big landing.

Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor?

It seems adding a landing in that situation just adds a step that is not needed

What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03

and could in itself add a trip hazard.

"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.

Whenever I pass through an exterior door, I always look down for an elevation change.

As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________



Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor


What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03



"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.



As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view.

Ok, makes sense now. Also re-read the code.... I'll buy what your sellin' now.

Originally Posted by Door Guy

Ok, makes sense now. Also re-read the code.... I'll buy what your sellin' now.

It's a 2-for-1 special ... ... Kristi, are you ready to buy the other 1/2 of the special?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Please refer to the attached drawing 02, then answer the question of: "What is this called?"

Your answer: ________________________



Correct on that part.

What is the upper level floor called?

How do you get from the lower level floor to the upper level floor?



What step are you adding? All you are doing when you add a landing is moving the stair (the "step" as you call it) from being even with the door and from where the door swings out over the stair, to where the door swings out over the landing - the same stair (the "step" as you call it) is still present, its location has just been relocated. See attached drawing 03



"add" ????

What are you "adding"? Nothing has been "added", the stair (the "step" as you call it) has simply been moved so that the door does not swing out over it.

Actually, you'd be moving one stair and adding two more if the door is not near a corner: one for each side of the landing.

As one should, but sometimes one is carrying large bags of groceries, a baby, maybe even laundry, or ... any number of things which would, could, block your view.

You have to step down somewhere! Personally, if I can't see my feet, I'd rather have a step down lined up with the door frame than 30" away from it. Better frame of reference. So to speak.

No, I don't buy the other half. Sorry!

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

It's a 2-for-1 special ... ... Kristi, are you ready to buy the other 1/2 of the special?

Not so fast, I will buy what you are selling, but I'm not drinking the koolaid. What you're quoting is code compliant, but I don't see that being any less of a hazard stepping down at the threshold than at the landing.

In fact I would agree with Kristi, I prefer the elevation change at the door sill where I would expect it.

Not my choice though with the way the code reads....

A little further explanation.... so in a garage with a 4" step-up into the house, you will need a 3x3 landing that has a 4" step/stair. Which is not a good riser height. Trust me, I have a 4" curb in my garage around 2 sides of the garage floor, if I had a nickel for everyone that just about bit the dust stepping off it, I'd be retired by now. It is a major trip hazard! I would never recommend it.

Anyways, you now have a landing sticking up 4" high with the rest of the garage being completely flat. This is a hazard walking by, getting out of the car and especially if you have your hands full and can't look down. Just my opinion...

It is the code.... JP you buying what I'm selling yet? Or at least recognize the point here?

An outward swinging door also exposes the hinges & pins that can be easily removed to gain entry. Of course, these should be "pinned" to prevent removal.

I was watching a movie (foreign) the other night and happened to notice all the exterior doors the characters accessed swung outwards. Funny the stupid stuff one notices.
Always the Inspector!