Stucco - InspectionNews

phil kaznowski · #1 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:10 PM

Looked at a home today and have not seen this type of stucco type material. There was no weep screed, control joints or stops at penetrations. There was a foam layer, fiberglass type mesh, less than an 1/8" cement coat and elastomeric. In Reno/Tahoe, one coat stucco is prevalent, but it typically has drainage components. Any thoughts?

Phil K.
Clio, CA

Billy Stephens · #2 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil kaznowski

.
Any thoughts?

Phil K.
Clio, CA

.
Yeah,

It Leaks like a

.

fritzkelly · #3 (**permalink**) 10-07-2009, 09:49 PM

Looks like a poorly done EIFS system to me.

phil kaznowski · #4 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 07:23 AM

In seven years of inspecting I have only come across one EIFS system and ironically it had a stamp stating what it was. The insulation board was much different and the thickness of the cement material and color coat was thicker. It also had an easily detectable drainage plane.

Phil K.
Clio, CA

A.D. Miller · #5 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil kaznowski

In seven years of inspecting I have only come across one EIFS system and ironically it had a stamp stating what it was. The insulation board was much different and the thickness of the cement material and color coat was thicker. It also had an easily detectable drainage plane.

Phil K.
Clio, CA

PK: The majority of EIFS installed on residential buildings is of the barrier variety which has no drainage provisions behind it.

All EIFS, no matter what variety, should have "EIFS" stamped in 3 ft. tall letters on all walls to ward off all but the typical stupid Americans who buy it.

phil kaznowski · #6 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 08:09 AM

So, does that mean that it is incorrect?

A.D. Miller · #7 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil kaznowski

So, does that mean that it is incorrect?

PK: You are short on good photos and it is difficult to diagnose anything with any degree of accuracy from afar, but:

(1) Exposed mesh is not allowed by the manufacturer of any exterior cladding system.

(2) There appears to be no sealant between the system and dissimilar materials.

(3) The deck ledger is not properly installed or flashed.

(4) The finish coat in photo one appears to have been slathered on with snow shovels by a troop of rabid and coked-out hyenas.

Send me more photos and we will continue . . .

phil kaznowski · #8 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 08:42 AM

Unfortunately, the bright yellow was tough to photo with backlight and sun. Will try to add couple of other pics tonight.

A.D. Miller · #9 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phil kaznowski

Unfortunately, the bright yellow was tough to photo with backlight and sun. Will try to add couple of other pics tonight.

PK: That is what the flash on the camera is for. If it is not strong enough then buy a bigger flash unit.

John Kogel · #10 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 12:06 PM

A.D., how do you pronounce EIFS? I mean do you say "ee-fis" ?

A.D. Miller · #11 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kogel

A.D., how do you pronounce EIFS? I mean do you say "ee-fis" ?

JK: It begins with a "c" and sound like "trap".

Seriously, I pronounce it "e-e-fs", but I have heard it both ways. Crap, by any other name, smells the same.

phil kaznowski · #12 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

PK: That is what the flash on the camera is for. If it is not strong enough then buy a bigger flash unit.

It wasnt the camera, just the camera man.

John Carroll · #13 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 08:56 PM

Ok, Ok, let's all keep calm now. Phil, can you hear me? ok, please put down the clipboard and back away slowly. Realize two things, One, you are not qualified by any stretch of your imagination to produce or offer an opinion on this home. Go home now and call someone who is.
Two, this is indeed EIFS, and needs to be looked at by a competant person, Phil, and that person is not you.

A.D., you need to dial back the ignorance a tad. Not all EIFS is crap, and there's not enough shown here to make that determination anyway. The pictures may show the only two places where there is a problem. Do the professional thing for once, and recommend an expert to this poor sap, before someone gets hurt.

phil kaznowski · #14 (**permalink**) 10-08-2009, 09:24 PM

There were numerous other issues warranting further inspection including the info. in this post. Thanks for confirming my decision(s).

A.D. Miller · #15 (**permalink**) 10-09-2009, 03:37 AM

Quote:

A.D., you need to dial back the ignorance a tad. Not all EIFS is crap, and there's not enough shown here to make that determination anyway. The pictures may show the only two places where there is a problem. Do the professional thing for once, and recommend an expert to this poor sap, before someone gets hurt.

JC: The courts in Texas seem to think I am an expert when it comes to EIFS, and have thought so since 1999. So then, if I am ignorant regarding this subject, you do not possess sufficient knowledge of it to even recognize that fact.

To my knowledge only EIFS manufacturers persist in touting EIFS as a viable cladding over residential wood construction, while everyone else (except, it seems, for you) has done the reasonable thing and stopped supporting it. That includes the NAHB, by the way.

While it may be a perfectly sound option for commercial application on other than wood frame buildings, we all know (or should know) that the difference between the skill and oversight levels on commercial vs. residential projects is like that between someone who knows something about the subject (like me) and someone who does not (just like you).

Scott Patterson · #16 (**permalink**) 10-09-2009, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

JC: The courts in Texas seem to think I am an expert when it comes to EIFS, and have thought so since 1999. So then, if I am ignorant regarding this subject, you do not possess sufficient knowledge of it to even recognize that fact.

To my knowledge only EIFS manufacturers persist in touting EIFS as a viable cladding over residential wood construction, while everyone else (except, it seems, for you) has done the reasonable thing and stopped supporting it. That includes the NAHB, by the way.

While it may be a perfectly sound option for commercial application on other than wood frame buildings, we all know (or should know) that the difference between the skill and oversight levels on commercial vs. residential projects is like that between someone who knows something about the subject (like me) and someone who does not (just like you).

Have to go with AD on this. Having done around 700+ EIFS inspections with around 100 of them as an EW for lawsuits I too agree that EIFS for the most is crap. The devil is in the details and those details are what the contractors fail to do and why we see so many problems with it. It is technically difficult product/system to install.

The funny thing is that I can remember almost every single good EIFS install that I have found since 1998, but I don't remember all of the bad ones!

Just looking at the picture I can see a few things that are wrong just from good building practices and those don't involve the EIFS. As for the EIFS, it has several problems that show in the pictures. Based on this I would say that the home most likely has many other issues.

All home inspectors should learn what to look for with EIFS just like they should know what to look for with all cladding's like Stucco, Brick, Wood, Hardy type products, MDF, Vinyl, and the list can go on and on. It is not rocket science to learn what to look for and to call it out when you find it. Yes, it might require some additional and meaningful CE but then that is why we should never stop our education in this profession.

John Kogel · #17 (**permalink**) 10-10-2009, 09:25 PM

Scott, what do you say, "E-e-fs, ee-ifs, or ee-fiz"? ?

John Carroll · #18 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 08:55 PM

Oh, yes, all hail and bow down to the "experts", for they have the blessing of the court system! You are all supremely qualified to disparage an entire industry from the "evidence" of two pictures, simply because you have had occasion to sit before a judge and pontificate on subjects without any real concerted or learned opposition. We all know that "experts" can be trotted out endlessly for both sides of any argument, and their opinion is bought and paid for. For it is here we understand the value of "expert" opinion. Whoever has the bucks, gets the opinion they want and pay for.

Spare me your sanctimony.

Lisa Endza · #19 (**permalink**) 10-15-2009, 10:14 PM

Stucco/EIFS inspection tips: Stucco/EIFS Inspection Tips - NACHI.TV Episode 74

Joseph Ehrhardt · #20 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 12:44 AM

Phil,
with out invasives I cant say if its barrier or a drainage, but I can agree with others there is no drainage track obseved from the bottom shot of the photo. It appears the mesh is back wrapped but lacking the lamina finish. In addition, with out more pictures it looks like they put the finish coat over the buildings foundation.(need more pics)

the other picture of the deck post notched into the band detail along the buildings rim joist location shows foam, again with no termination tracks/weep system and I agree with A.D.Millers observations of the deck and its missing flashing and soft joint between dissimilar materials.

Make all your observations such as/if any... lacking kick outs, control joints, weeps above head flashing of doors and windows,ect and add into the report the seller/owner should supply manufactures name and warranty and installations guide.

Joe

A.D. Miller · #21 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Spare me your sanctimony.

Spare us your ignorant blather.

Rick Erickson · #22 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 06:50 AM

Thank you Lisa ... for bringing reason to a 'childish display' of communication... and the link to the video. The video is very informative.

Joseph Ehrhardt · #23 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 06:51 AM

Igonrant blather Miller comes from you...some one asks a question and your advice is to tell them they are not qualified, like your qualifacations are. I would like to see your early buildings you inspected, in fact, I would like to see current because I bet I could run behind and find a boat load of misses.
To blather on Mr Texas expert, I have exposed 40 million dollors in EIFS, Hard Coat Stucco and stone veneer deficencies here in the lovely corrupt state of new jersey against K Hovnanian alone, I will spare the readers on Pultie, Centex, Toll, and Lennar.
You see, I am the blather thats inspects a building after code enforcement and home inspectors like you have done their job, everything from a single story building to highrise( which I would love to see your fat azz on a swing scaffold when the thermals rise up a wall)
Oh , by the way Miller, next time you walk by a hollow fiberglass or aluminum structural column holding a roof up, get you fat azz up on a ladder and look inside to see if theres a hold down system inside...a Simpson D33 or a Tamlyn column hold down...I wonder how many of those you missed.
You see Tamlyn,(out of Texas) is my partner on this device and is a one of many construction related patents I have. I contribute to society unlike you, who cuts people down while you sit at you computer doing who knows what...try helping and contributing your self proclaimed knowledge to someone instead of shooting your words off...puzzys like you should be on an elderly womans lap getting petted.

Scott Patterson · #24 (**permalink**) 10-16-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joseph Ehrhardt

Igonrant blather Miller comes from you...some one asks a question and your advice is to tell them they are not qualified, like your qualifacations are. I would like to see your early buildings you inspected, in fact, I would like to see current because I bet I could run behind and find a boat load of misses.
To blather on Mr Texas expert, I have exposed 40 million dollors in EIFS, Hard Coat Stucco and stone veneer deficencies here in the lovely corrupt state of new jersey against K Hovnanian alone, I will spare the readers on Pultie, Centex, Toll, and Lennar.
You see, I am the blather thats inspects a building after code enforcement and home inspectors like you have done their job, everything from a single story building to highrise( which I would love to see your fat azz on a swing scaffold when the thermals rise up a wall)
Oh , by the way Miller, next time you walk by a hollow fiberglass or aluminum structural column holding a roof up, get you fat azz up on a ladder and look inside to see if theres a hold down system inside...a Simpson D33 or a Tamlyn column hold down...I wonder how many of those you missed.
You see Tamlyn,(out of Texas) is my partner on this device and is a one of many construction related patents I have. I contribute to society unlike you, who cuts people down while you sit at you computer doing who knows what...try helping and contributing your self proclaimed knowledge to someone instead of shooting your words off...puzzys like you should be on an elderly womans lap getting petted.

Joey, what the heck got you all riled up! Time to practice those deep breathing exercises! Yes, AD does get under the skin of some but I have never seen any bad information coming from his post.

As for looking as hold-down systems on columns that is a pretty normal item to look for in my neck of the woods. Now as for getting up on scaffolding? Nope, it won't be me. I require a lift and if a lift won't reach I require a roof mounted motorized gantry. Why risk your life on scaffolding when you don't have to do so. Besides I don't inspect anything over 6 floors so most of the time it is not an issue.

FYI, just this year I have inspected right at $230M in commercial projects and I guessing around $75M in residential projects. I'm just a solo inspector and this is small potatoes in the inspection world.

And another thing, you might be an EW as well but you sure do need to invest in a free spell check or something to help you with your post. As a professional I'm sure you will agree that proper spelling is an important part of our work. Most say that it does not matter on discussion boards like this but they forget that post on boards like this one stay around forever.

Mike Schulz · #25 (**permalink**) 10-18-2009, 04:04 PM

AD as Scott pointed out Joey did not have a spell check and I am sure he was meaning "Phat"

Stacey Van Houtan · #26 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 02:17 PM

I would like to see infomation that the HBA has said all EIFS is bad. Where is that reference ?

A some tims happens on this site relevant information is being left out.

A moisture probe inspection is what should be recommened on all EIFS and in my opinion on all stucco installed after 1970=/-.

Moisture intrusion is not caused by the EIFS cladding. The main moisture intrusion in the building envelope (not counting roofs and basements) is at the same typical areas reguardles of the cladding system.

Windows and doors
Kickout flashing
Decks
Chimneys

bruce bjorkstrand · #27 (**permalink**) 10-22-2009, 09:09 PM

Hey this was a fun read guy's & gal. I am new here but I have had EFIS on my home for over 15 years and love it. I live in Western Wisconsin and we just installed new windows so we had an opportunity to inspect the areas that should have been the problem spot from the very beginning. Everything looked good on the underside of the window corners and below. Our main problem in the beginning was to have the EFIS go all the way to the ground and contact the cenent sidewalk in the front. Looked good but the sidewalk moved a little in the winter and buckled the EFIS about 5' up. We replaced these areas when we resplashed after the windows were installed.
I would say that EFIS when installed right and no hockey pucks are around it can last for many years.

Bruce

Brent Crouse · #28 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 07:05 AM

Has anyone here taken the InterNACHI online stucco/EIFS certification course?

If so, is it worthwhile?

Scott Patterson · #29 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan

I would like to see infomation that the HBA has said all EIFS is bad. Where is that reference ?

Why would HBA say that and what does HBA have to do with the problems associated with EIFS?

Quote:

A some tims happens on this site relevant information is being left out.

A moisture probe inspection is what should be recommened on all EIFS and in my opinion on all stucco installed after 1970=/-.

Actually if you have the proper tools moisture probes are not always needed or the way to go with an EIFS inspection. About 75% of an EIFS inspection is visual the remaining 25% is electronic.

Have you ever tried to put moisture probes into stucco? If so you could be causing more problems. Do you recommend the same for a brick veneer home? If not why?

Quote:

Moisture intrusion is not caused by the EIFS cladding. The main moisture intrusion in the building envelope (not counting roofs and basements) is at the same typical areas reguardles of the cladding system.

Windows and doors
Kickout flashing
Decks
Chimneys

True to a point, but the problem with EIFS is that it locks in the moisture and on the original EIFS systems they counted on the system being a barrier system so they did not have a moisture barrier on the sheathing. EIFS is also a very technical installation type product that has specific installation guidelines that were or are seldom followed.

Scott Patterson · #30 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Crouse

Has anyone here taken the InterNACHI online stucco/EIFS certification course?

If so, is it worthwhile?

The only course I would recommend would be the one that is offered by the Exterior Design Institute (EDI). Taking and passing the EDI course will also provide you with a marketable credential that is recognized.

Jim Schwarz · #31 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:48 AM

Ladies - stop your bickering. This is worse than a daytime soap opera.
AD's ONE post examining the pictures are well intended, and correct.
Lisa's post to interNACHI is helpful.
But in the end, Mr. Carroll was completely right on. Get a real EIFS inspector in if you've never seen it before.

The rest of you are just spewing verbal diarrhea.
"This EIFS was improperly installed" is all the home owner needs to hear.
"All EIFS is a bad cladding and you shouldn't buy it" is your own opinion. You know what they say about opinions right? They're like assholes, everyone has one, and no one wants to see yours.

I'd ramble on about how narrow minded and small the world is that some of you home inspectors live in, it must feel great to feel so confident in your own ignorance to not keep up to date on EIFS information from the most recent DECADE, but I'll take my own advice.

Jim Schwarz · #32 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

True to a point, but the problem with EIFS is that it locks in the moisture and on the original EIFS systems they counted on the system being a barrier system so they did not have a moisture barrier on the sheathing. EIFS is also a very technical installation type product that has specific installation guidelines that were or are seldom followed.

Almost... you're about 80% right here Scott.

The statement - "the problem with EIFS is that it locks in the moisture" - is misleading. Modern EIFS systems - anything installed properly within in the past 7-8 years - allows for drainage. Recent studies by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory show that modern EIFS systems actually outperform alternative claddings.
http://www.eima.com/pdfs/EIMA%20ORNL...um%20Final.pdf

Another report from the NRCC (National Research Council of Canada) demonstrates that as long as you have the right vapour permeance (i.e. moisture barriers, but not vapour barriers), EIFS is fine over wood-frame construction.
http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/do.../nrcc51406.pdf

What you are 100% right about is how technical it is to install, and that the installation guidelines are rarely followed (the the T).

Scott Patterson · #33 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 11:54 AM

One of the problems with any study done by EIMA is that pretty much everything they do is funded by the various manufacturers of EIFS products. EIMA is an association for the manufacturers. Similar to the defect guidelines that are published by the National Home Builders Association. In the end it is the Fox who is guarding the hen house.

I have seen the Canadian study and it is a good, technical but good.

The new generation with a vapor barrier and drainage screed is much improved over the products we had prior to their appearance in the market place.

Ryan Stouffer · #34 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 01:18 PM

Did you consider EFIS or the new hybrid systems? They have that layer of foam behind them.

Ryan

Derek Kelly · #35 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 01:29 PM

Hi I use to install EIFS and it is poor workmanship for sure.First picture is hard to see the second tells the tail. Any questions let me know

Stacey Van Houtan · #36 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 03:17 PM

Scott

I referenced a post that said the NAHB (still HBA to me) did not recommend EIFS. I know that is BS and asked for the Reference.

As to a moisture probe beining needed, I would say that is absoultly needed. The probe is for moisture and also gives a indicitive idea of the substrate as some locations. And although done incorrect some windows-doors or other details may be per forming, this is valuable information for repair considerations. (Google Moisture Warranty)

You are correct EDI is a good Org. As well as AWCSI

I think that EIFS is no more techinical that 3-coat or 1-coat stuccl

The number 1 residentil defect is moisture intrusion. AND reguardless of the cladding system it enters primaly at windows and doors - kickouts - decks and chimneys

And yes i have probed brick and If you think probing increases the chance of allowing water behind the cladding system That is just wrong.

.

Brent Crouse · #37 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

The only course I would recommend would be the one that is offered by the Exterior Design Institute (EDI). Taking and passing the EDI course will also provide you with a marketable credential that is recognized.

Thanks Scott, appreciate the recommendation.

Jerry Peck · #38 (**permalink**) 10-23-2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Schwarz

Ladies - stop your bickering. This is worse than a daytime soap opera.

The rest of you are just spewing verbal diarrhea.

You know what they say about opinions right? They're like assholes, everyone has one, and no one wants to see yours.

I'd ramble on about how narrow minded and small the world is that some of you home inspectors live in,

Jim,

I do believe you just did ramble on with verbal diarrhea and you expressed you opinion befitting of your description of opinions.

Oh, right, I forgot, you were meaning that applied to everyone EXCEPT for you.

John Carroll · #39 (**permalink**) 11-03-2009, 07:48 PM

But in the end, Mr. Carrol was completely right on.

Even tho you mispelled the last name, I appreciate the applause.

Jim Schwarz · #40 (**permalink**) 11-05-2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Jim,

I do believe you just did ramble on with verbal diarrhea and you expressed you opinion befitting of your description of opinions.

Oh, right, I forgot, you were meaning that applied to everyone EXCEPT for you.

Guilty as charged.

Just a note - I met with the head of the EIFS industry (in Canada - ECC) a few weeks back - and they're moving to a "if it does not contain EXACTLY the layers as outlined in the EIFS manufacturer guidelines, it's not EIFS" standpoint.

That means if it doesn't have a continuous moisture barrier with taped joints, it's not EIFS.
If it's not adhered chemically (i.e. with cement, they're moving away from mechanical fasteners) in vertical channels to facilitate drainage, it's not EIFS.
If the EPS is not rasped, meshed and uses exclusively the EIFS manufacturer base coat, it's not EIFS.
If the finish coat isn't applied as it is directly out of the pail, it isn't EIFS.

And all the conditions that go with it of course - weather conditions, weeping at the base of walls, window details, material thickness, etc. What is scary, is that it's nearly impossible to tell afterwards if the applicator used the manufacturer's base coat - which contains fibres and acrylics to help prevent cracking - or just bought portland cement and used that for the base coat.

The QAP will change the industry in a big way. Not only for EIFS, but other claddings as well. I can keep you guys in the loop if anyone is actually interested in what REAL EIFS will be in 5 years.

Jim Schwarz · #41 (**permalink**) 11-05-2009, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Carroll

Even tho you mispelled the last name

I don't know what you're talking about