Gap between stucco weep screed and concrete slab - InspectionNews

Fred Waggoner · #1 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 01:07 PM

In the course of inspecting stucco cladding, especially one-coat stucco on newer homes, I often find a gap between the metal stucco weep screed and the concrete slab or concrete foundation. The gap is usually large enough to view the exposed bottom surface of the wooden mud sill. I conclude that the gap exists because during the framing process, the mud sill was fastened onto the concrete slab such that the sill does not align vertically with the side wall of the slab (the framers build a mud sill footprint slightly larger than the footprint of the slab). Of course, when I report on this, the builder usually responds that the installation "meets code".

Question: Should this gap be filled? If so, are there any information sources ?that substantiate or justify that the gap should be sealed?

Jerry Peck · #2 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred Waggoner

In the course of inspecting stucco cladding, especially one-coat stucco

One-coat stucco system?

I am aware of two-coat stucco systems on masonry, and three coat stucco systems on masonry, even three coat stucco systems on frame (as described and specified in the ASTM Standard C-926), but ... a one-coat system?

To what standard is it applied?

Martin lehman · #3 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 07:27 PM

I report this as an avenue for pests to enter the home. I dont know of any code stating so, but I beleive the screed should be flush against the foundation stem wall. I guess it would be more of a generally accepted practice, since most applications dont have that gap.

Dan Harris · #4 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 08:35 PM

On 1 yr warranties, I found AZ does not enforce large gaps.
I state sealing is needed to prevent rodent and scorpion entry.. That seems to have a little more effect with the customer when fighting with the builder to get it corrected.

A while back I tried for a customer to get it sealed in the bedroom wall for crickets... the builder didn't buy that one, guess he figured out they entered thur the weep holes.

The other thing that I found that helps get it sealed, if there is wood sheathing or if the bottom plate is exposed above the weep I state that they need to be protected from moisture and pest damage.

Jerry ..two or three coats on wood framed...Heck all they do here is apply just enought [sometimes] to cover the metal lathe.

Jerry Peck · #5 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Harris

Jerry ..two or three coats on wood framed...Heck all they do here is apply just enought [sometimes] to cover the metal lathe.

Dan,

Then that does not meet the requirements for stucco installations.

BARRY ADAIR · #6 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

One-coat stucco system?

I am aware of two-coat stucco systems on masonry, and three coat stucco systems on masonry, even three coat stucco systems on frame (as described and specified in the ASTM Standard C-926), but ... a one-coat system?

To what standard is it applied?

Standard F-666
AKA: As little as we can get away with around here

All the one-coat on wood frame that I see is 5/8", not stucco in my book or any other that I'm aware of.

BARRY ADAIR · #7 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 05:20 AM

Thom Walker gave me this tip and I've had occasions to use it.

When the builder/applicator asks, “Why are you making a big deal over 1/8”?”

Ask him/her to stretch their arm as far as they can across an island countertop or the hood of their truck.
Now here is the fun part.
Place a $100 bill 1/8” beyond their reach and ask, “What’s the big deal now?”
As they stutter and stammer for a reply mine is, “You’ve left hundreds of these off of this project.”

Clients love the fact that they just got caught and you very clearly made this point.

Jeff Euriech · #8 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 07:15 AM

Dan and I both see a lot of different one coat stucco applications in Arizona. Most are install at a thickness of 3/8 inch if done correctly. Sometimes they install a 1/8 inch second coat over the base coat for decoration.

Western 1-Kote Stucco at Western Blended is one of the main companies out here. See ES-Report at http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...BO-ES/3899.pdf

Stonewall One Coat Stucco is another one used out here: STONEWALL PRODUCTS

The UltraKote Stucco ES-Report makes reference to the gap Fred is talking about by saying: Exterior Sheathing Must Be Protected From The Elements By Whatever Means Is Deemed Adequate For Geographical Region By Design Professional http://www.ultrakoteproducts.com/reports/4658.pdf

We have one builder out here that will normally seal the gap at the weep screed. Another one charges extra to fill it in. The rest for the most part will not do anything.

Jeff Euriech
Peoria Arizona

BARRY ADAIR · #9 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Euriech

Dan and I both see a lot of different one coat stucco applications in Arizona. Most are install at a thickness of 3/8 inch if done correctly. Sometimes they install a 1/8 inch second coat over the base coat for decoration.

Western 1-Kote Stucco at Western Blended is one of the main companies out here. See ES-Report at http://www.icc-es.org/reports/pdf_fi...BO-ES/3899.pdf

Stonewall One Coat Stucco is another one used out here: STONEWALL PRODUCTS

The UltraKote Stucco ES-Report makes reference to the gap Fred is talking about by saying: Exterior Sheathing Must Be Protected From The Elements By Whatever Means Is Deemed Adequate For Geographical Region By Design Professional http://www.ultrakoteproducts.com/reports/4658.pdf

We have one builder out here that will normally seal the gap at the weep screed. Another one charges extra to fill it in. The rest for the most part will not do anything.

Jeff Euriech
Peoria Arizona

Jeff,

I see a lot of crap also.

Just like there is faux stone, brick...there is faux stucco; which IMHO one-coat is. Thin shet is not stucco and will/does not hold up. Every job I walk onto is cracked and leaks to hell before they sell. They finally find a sucker that buys the B.S. from the realtors and builders "All stucco cracks that's part of the appeal."

Correct Thickness of Stucco FAQ | Portland Cement Association (PCA)

I found it sad that HD is or will be marketing the product. Homeowners have their own button Western Blended On the next Barb the Builder Show we'll learn how to make any home stucco!

John Carroll · #10 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 09:26 AM

Sounds like Jerry & Barry need to move out of the State of DE Nile.
What is typically called "one-coat" stucco is and has been the standard of the production home industry for more than 20 years. As in hundreds of thousands of units.
Properly installed, it will hold up quite well, is an efficient and effective cladding for most locations here in the desert Southwest, where prolonged rain and moisture is much less an issue than Fla. or lately, TX.
I have for years advocated using the term Plaster to describe 3-coat work and Stucco for 1-coat just to avoid confusion, but have had little luck in convincing others to adopt this simple clarification.
While, you may not like 1-coat for personal reasons that have no bearing on the facts, you do a disservice to the uninitiated in promoting those views here.
Local codes here require caulking of all visible gaps at the sill/stem connection. Bugs are a fact of life that is not going away. Deal with it without advocating total sealing of the wall. this will lead to other structural and more serious problems in the long run.

BARRY ADAIR · #11 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Carroll

Sounds like Jerry & Barry need to move out of the State of DE Nile.
What is typically called "one-coat" stucco is and has been the standard of the production home industry for more than 20 years. As in hundreds of thousands of units.
Properly installed, it will hold up quite well, is an efficient and effective cladding for most locations here in the desert Southwest, where prolonged rain and moisture is much less an issue than Fla. or lately, TX.
I have for years advocated using the term Plaster to describe 3-coat work and Stucco for 1-coat just to avoid confusion, but have had little luck in convincing others to adopt this simple clarification.
While, you may not like 1-coat for personal reasons that have no bearing on the facts, you do a disservice to the uninitiated in promoting those views here.
Local codes here require caulking of all visible gaps at the sill/stem connection. Bugs are a fact of life that is not going away. Deal with it without advocating total sealing of the wall. this will lead to other structural and more serious problems in the long run.

John,

Only replying for Barry.

No denial here but we do have very expansive clay soil and a different climate to consider. Some of the most expansive in the country as a matter of fact and some of the heaviest rains also as of late. Nothing like where you're at.
A cheaper, thinner, faster wall does not work very well, here anyway.
If soil heave may be pulling gas line compression connections apart imagine what happens to a home with a one-coat system not properly installed.

I understand proper installation is the key to any system. Maybe proper is just a lost art.

Dan Harris · #12 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 01:16 PM

Local codes here require caulking of all visible gaps at the sill/stem connection. Bugs are a fact of life that is not going away. Deal with it without advocating total sealing of the wall. this will lead to other structural and more serious problems in the long run.

John... Do you have a code reference for this?
The non- enforcement that I refered to was a complaint filed by a customer with the ROC.

Jerry Peck · #13 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Carroll

Sounds like Jerry & Barry need to move out of the State of DE Nile.
What is typically called "one-coat" stucco is and has been the standard of the production home industry for more than 20 years. As in hundreds of thousands of units.
Properly installed,

"Properly installed"

There is no "properly installed" to a stucco application which does not meet the minimum requirements of the standard to which it is supposed to be installed.

That's like saying that "properly driving at 90 mph on a 70 mph speed limit road is okay as most of the time, it works out okay".

I've got a news flash here, 90 mph is only "okay" and "properly driving" on roads with a 90 mph speed limit ... or on a race track. Otherwise, it's just a case of 'everyone does it' when you get stopped and are chatting with the officer.

BARRY ADAIR · #14 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"Properly installed"

There is no "properly installed" to a stucco application which does not meet the minimum requirements of the standard to which it is supposed to be installed.

That's like saying that "properly driving at 90 mph on a 70 mph speed limit road is okay as most of the time, it works out okay".

I've got a news flash here, 90 mph is only "okay" and "properly driving" on roads with a 90 mph speed limit ... or on a race track. Otherwise, it's just a case of 'everyone does it' when you get stopped and are chatting with the officer.

Jerry,

I get your point but in the case of one-coat I think it would be 35 mph in a 70mph limit.

Dan Harris · #15 (**permalink**) 07-20-2007, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Dan,

Then that does not meet the requirements for stucco installations.

Jerry ...I'm sure it's installed properly..
The contractors fill out a form "certifing" that the stucco was installed in accordance to the manufactures instructions.

Francis Primeaux · #16 (**permalink**) 07-21-2007, 07:22 AM

See following link for the National One Coat Stucco Association.
National One Coat Stucco Association

Seems to me that improper flashing details are the bane of all exterior claddings, stucco is not the exception.

Dan Harris · #17 (**permalink**) 07-21-2007, 08:46 AM

Taking a little turn on this subject.

I am currently fighting a builder[ on a new home customers 1/2 ] where 20' of the stucco wall is installed directly on top of stem wall, all the other walls have the proper clearances with weep installed...

Three or four other times that I identified this the builder corrected it with no questions, by me simply stating the clearance requirements and the need for proper venting /drainage.

This builder is challanging this, and is refusing to make any correction with out code references..

I got a copy of clearance requirements, diagram showing 2" clearance from concrete , 4" form dirt, and the IRCcode [ 703.6.2.1 ] UBC 2506.5] references from another post here, are there any other references that can help on this with having to purchase an installation manual?

Jerry Peck · #18 (**permalink**) 07-21-2007, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Primeaux

See following link for the National One Coat Stucco Association.
National One Coat Stucco Association

Seems to me that improper flashing details are the bane of all exterior claddings, stucco is not the exception.

Frank,

First off, using the name "one coat stucco" is a misnomer as "stucco" has a specific standard to which it is *required* to be applied, thus, apply anything called "stucco" to any other standard is incorrect.

One coat stucco should be called "one coat decorative cementitious coating", which has *no standard* to which it is applied in accordance with.

Then there is the problem with code approved wall coverings and weatherproofing. Does (I don't know and have not checked) this one coat decorative cementitious coating meet the requirements for impact resistance of the structural exterior walls, wind load resistance, water penetration resistance, et al?

I checked the link provided and noticed the following (see anything wrong?):

7. What are the components of the One-Coat System?

The components of a one-coat system always include a weather resistive membrane, metal reinforcement and the fiber reinforced or one-coat stucco. The product may be installed over a wide variety of substrates including foam plastic insulation board, exterior gypsum sheathing, oriented strand board (OSB), exterior plywood, asphalt impersonated sheathing and almost any other code approved exterior sheathing. A substrate is always required; it is not designed for installation over open framing. It may also be applied to concrete and concrete masonry units with or without metal reinforcement.

Then there was this, do you see anything wrong here?

One Coat Stucco

The term One Coat Stucco refers to a blend of Portland cement, sand, fibers, special proprietary chemicals and water. One Coat Stucco combines the scratch and brown coat into a single application of 3/8" to 1/2" thick.