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  1. #1
    dan orourke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Dan
    I don't have the IRC at home, but from memory. The interior swing door is not required to have a landing outside.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Dan,

    No photo?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by dan orourke View Post
    The agent said the rear door NEEDED a landing, I said it did not as the door opened inward AND there was a landing for the front entry door for emergency exit.
    If I ignore the rest, I think I get what you are saying from the above.

    First, a "landing" is needed, sometimes, but, define "landing".

    The ground outside can serve as a "landing".

    So, the question becomes, are you referring to a landing level with the interior floor, or a landing one step down?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Jerry
    I gotta say, you think beyond the obvious.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Rick,

    Well, you certainly do not want to step out into a black hole and step out the other side in China, do you?

    So, 'how far down' is that step Dan and the agent are talking about? Could it be one and the same?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Thats what I mean. I read it and think, inswing door no landing needed(stop). Whereas you read it and think, inswing door, what is (or is not) out there.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by dan orourke View Post
    I'm refering from the threshold to the first step below the threshold, I don't think a landing is needed there, am I correct?
    "am I correct?

    Nope.

    But there are more problems there than just that.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    (bold and underlining are mine)
    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
    - - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 73/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
    - - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 73/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.
    - - The width of each landing shall not be less than the door
    served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of
    36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.


    There are three (3) risers at that stair, which means it does not meet the exception and landing is required.

    The risers are of different heights and exceed the allowable variation between riser heights.

    I doubt that handrail will withstand the loads it is required to withstand. Plus, the lower end juts out and is not returned properly.

    That should be a pretty good start.


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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Dan,

    In your picture what is that rectangle in the corner at the foundation ?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by dan orourke View Post

    I didn't go under the house as there was a zillion ants under there
    Dan,

    I'm with you on not going under. We have fire ants in our area. If you are in a confined space with those it could cost you your life.

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    however, I consider the foundation "ledge" to be a tread that is less than 8 inches which is a defect. Am I correct in my assessment?
    Looks like that 'ledge' is the same level as the floor inside, hence not a 'tread' ... but not a 'landing' either (actually, it is a 'landing', just not a 'code landing').

    Not sure I like it, but not sure I would write it up either - is the floor inside the same level?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    would you not want a vertical offset to prevent water from getting in?
    "would I want" versus "is it required"?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    Ha!

    Is it "required"?

    If not required, would you recommend?
    No and no, it is way too late on an existing house. For new homes under construction, I always recommended it (seldom was done, though).

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    Jerry,

    Why wouldn't you consider the ledge to be a tread?
    There is no riser above it. Thus, if anything, it would be a landing, and, as long as the door swings in, no landing is required there, so it is just (for lack of a better term) 'floor'.

    What would you say if the door was set back 2" or so like most doors are instead of about 8"? Would that be a tread?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Eastman View Post
    Interesting!

    Would you consider it a riser , though?
    A riser goes up, it 'rises' from one tread to the next, so I'm not following that question.

    Are you asking about the second riser up, from the tread to the floor above? If so, yes, that is a riser, and a riser goes from landing to landing (one riser), landing to tread (for two more risers), tread to tread (for two more risers), or tread to landing (for two more risers).

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    House with no "front door", rather two exterior doors, one on each side, both exiting to walkways along their respective sides of the building.

    Both exterior "landings" are walkways at grade.

    Door A is off living room.

    Door B is off kitchen.

    The tops of both thresholds are 2.5" above their landings.

    Have I got this right:

    1) Door A is the "required exit door".

    2) The 2.5" from top of threshold to landing height of the required exit door is non -compliant with R311.4.3 (too high).

    3) Door B is "
    other than the required exit door".

    4) As "
    two or fewer risers" are located on the exterior side door B, it falls under exception 1, no "landing" is required, and the 1.5" maximum does not apply.

    5) However, at door B,
    the distance from the top of the threshold to the walkway must be less than or equal to 7.75" .



    Michael Thomas
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    I think you have it down pretty good.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Door A is off living room.

    The tops of both thresholds are 2.5" above their landings.

    Have I got this right:

    1) Door A is the "required exit door".

    2) The 2.5" from top of threshold to landing height of the required exit door is non -compliant with R311.4.3 (too high).
    You've missed Exception 2 (assuming the door swings inward and not outward).

    From the 2006 IRC. (bold and underlining are mine)
    - R311.4.3 Landings at doors. There shall be a floor or landing on each side of each exterior door. The floor or landing at the exterior door shall not be more than 1.5 inches (38 mm) lower than the top of the threshold. The landing shall be permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal (2-percent).
    - - Exceptions:
    - - - 1. Where a stairway of two or fewer risers is located on the exterior side of a door, other than the required exit door, a landing is not required for the exterior side of the door provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the stairway.
    - - - 2. The exterior landing at an exterior doorway shall not be more than 7 3/4 inches (196 mm) below the top of the threshold, provided the door, other than an exterior storm or screen door does not swing over the landing.
    - - - 3. The height of floors at exterior doors other than the exit door required by Section R311.4.1 shall not be more than 7 3/4 inches (186 mm) lower than the top of the threshold.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Now here's one more twist... according to this diagram:

    InterNACHI Message Board

    the 1-1/2" does not include the "compressible element" of an air-seal atop the threshold....

    Michael Thomas
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  21. #21
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Now here's one more twist... according to this diagram:

    the 1-1/2" does not include the "compressible element" of an air-seal atop the threshold....
    Michael,

    The link bring up a message which says:

    You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
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    However, what you measure to is the height at which you foot lands when stepping up, and, if that 'compressible element' is dried out and does not compress, then, yes, it would be measured, otherwise, no.

    Think of it this way (although it is not for this purpose): The 1/2" maximum height in the path of a wheelchair, with sides slope 2:1 if over 1/4" high: that 1/2" height if the height the wheel chair had to roll over, so, you could have a 'compressible element' which would compress under the weight of the well chair and the person in the wheel chair would not have to go over anything greater than 1/2", nothing extra is needed on their part to go over it.

    Likewise, if you had a compressible element and you stepped over it, if your shoe hit the compressible element, the element would compress and not be a hazard either.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Diagram is as follows:

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Michael,

    Thank you for that drawing, it is from the IRC commentary, however ...

    ... that drawing is incorrect. I have attached a corrected drawing which actually depicts what the code is saying and what it is meaning.

    To understand my drawing difference, first you must think about thresholds which have "different profiles" - not all profiles are that 'high saddle' type. My drawing takes into consideration that other profile thresholds exist (and they do, and are used with great frequency).

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    My wife's comment, over my shoulder:

    "I see you are looking at that Home Inspection porn again..."

    Michael Thomas
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Jerry,

    BTW, I really like he idea of having both door swings on the same diagram in different colors; makes the interpretation very clear.

    Michael Thomas
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  26. #26
    Jerry Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    makes the interpretation very clear.
    Michael,

    I was also showing the it is acceptable for the outdoors side to step down up to 1-1/2" below the interior floor level (depending on threshold height) if the door swings in or outward.

    1) If you used a 1/2" high bumper threshold with an out-swing door, the outdoor floor or landing could only be 1" lower than the interior floor level as you measure down from the top of the threshold.

    2) If the door did not have a threshold under it on the floor but instead had a 'sweep' mounted to the bottom of the out-swing door (which would serve the same purpose as a threshold), then the exterior floor or landing could really be that 1-1/2" down. I have seen this on expensive home with marble/granite/saturnia/travertine/etc. (stone) floors where the stone flooring continued out to the edge of the slab and stepped down to the 'porch floor' outside. Yes, the sweep does eventually wear into the stone, especially softer stone, but it is what they want and meets code minimums.

    Things to consider before writing up step downs outside the door.

    It was hard to show that in one drawing, probably should have made two or more drawing details showing those possibilities and put them on one larger drawing.

    As long as what I was showing was easily understood, then that one drawing worked out okay. Was it easily understood?

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    Thank you for that drawing, it is from the IRC commentary, however ...

    ... that drawing is incorrect. I have attached a corrected drawing which actually depicts what the code is saying and what it is meaning.

    To understand my drawing difference, first you must think about thresholds which have "different profiles" - not all profiles are that 'high saddle' type. My drawing takes into consideration that other profile thresholds exist (and they do, and are used with great frequency).
    Jerry,

    I just posted the diagram.

    Frankly I find your diagram a bit more confusing.

    The main points are:

    1-1/2" max from the top of the non compressible threshold to the floor.

    7-3/4 " max from the step/landing to the top of non compressible portion of the threshold.


    Please correct me if needed.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    The main points are:

    1-1/2" max from the top of the non compressible threshold to the floor.

    Michael,

    To "which floor" is the 1-1/2" measured?

    THAT is what I was showing in mine as it is not shown correctly in the IRC drawing.

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Michael,

    To "which floor" is the 1-1/2" measured?

    THAT is what I was showing in mine as it is not shown correctly in the IRC drawing.
    Jerry, I think I found your diagram confusing because the scale changes from one side of the door to the other.

    The original diagram probably should have had the 1-1/2" dimension on the door swing side for clarity but I just looked beyond that.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Larson View Post
    Jerry, I think I found your diagram confusing because the scale changes from one side of the door to the other.
    I should have removed the scale shown on their drawing.

    I had to either change the scale or do several different details for various thresholds, I choose to ignore the scale, I should have then removed the scale shown in the drawing and shown it as Scale = NTS (Not to Scale).

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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    For those on the left coast (CA) the max height for thresholds at doorways shall not exceed 0.5 and for sliding glass doors 0.75 as of Jan. 1, 2008. CBC 1008.1.6.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)


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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Stratton View Post
    I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)
    .
    Welcome Larry,


    Yes.
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: Exterior Door Landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Stratton View Post
    I would like to make sure I understand this correctly. We have and outswing 2-6 door which is actually the 4th means of egress from the first floor of a home. It would step out to a landing that is 44in in the direction of travel and 50 inches wide. I would step down 6 1/2 inches. From what I read above, this may be a code issue. Is the maximum step down for any outswing door 1 1/2in? (east coast)
    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Welcome Larry,

    Yes.
    .

    I agree with Billy as long as you are not referring to a screen door or storm door.


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