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  1. #66
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Do you not read what you type? See bold red text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgeta Danila View Post
    Unbelievable! I told you that I am going to hire a contractor and an architect. Do I speak Chinese?
    And *I* told you the association should be doing the work, not you.

    I told you from the beginning that I am going to work with the management company, with the contractor, with the architect.
    That's not what you stated at first, not for a while, and then you still wanted the association to pay for the work or at least kick in some money.

    FYI I know a a lot of things about construction, architecture.
    I thought so based on your intelligent responses to the responses to your questions.

    I am from Europe and English is my second language. I asked the questions to understand the terminology in English. I know what means grade lumber in my language but not in English. Now I know. ...I know about the joists, the lath, the bridging, the blocking, ....but I am still learning the English terminology. You guys came like hyenas and jump over me and A.D.
    Nope - we came like intelligent people telling you that you should NOT be working on the STRUCTURE YOU DO NOT OWN, that is up to the association.

    I am disgusted about your behavior.
    Sigh ... try to help someone to not make a major screw-up and this is what you get?

    I do believe this horse has drowned itself refusing to drink from the well of knowledge.

    Inspection Referral SOC
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  2. #67
    David Bell's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    There are times that a student fails a teacher. More often than not the teacher fails the student, whether it be the teachers vanity,or just his attitude that he is superior to whom he is attempting to "enlighten". These people in good faith came to this forum to learn the best way to proceed with thier problem. What they recieved was an education as to what to expect when they contact a "professional". You guys have instilled about as much confidence in your profession as Toyota has in gas pedals. I personally am embarassed for you.


  3. #68
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    These people in good faith came to this forum to learn the best way to proceed with thier problem. What they recieved was an education as to what to expect when they contact a "professional". You guys have instilled about as much confidence in your profession as Toyota has in gas pedals. I personally am embarassed for you.
    This is an interesting topic.
    On the otherr side of the coin, these people did ask the best way to proceed.
    I suspect some of the answers given may very well be based on prior experience from the guys that responded.
    From what I've read, if JP and others just went ahead and answered the questions the persons are asking and if something went wrong, the next step could very well be , your honor, I don't know what went wrong, I did it exactly the way the professionals at Inspection News told me.

    Or when they go to sell the property many inspectors will advise the new home buyer to obtain any permits on any work that was completed on the property.

    Last edited by Dan Harris; 03-01-2010 at 09:29 PM.
    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
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  4. #69
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bell View Post
    There are times that a student fails a teacher. More often than not the teacher fails the student, whether it be the teachers vanity,or just his attitude that he is superior to whom he is attempting to "enlighten". These people in good faith came to this forum to learn the best way to proceed with thier problem. What they recieved was an education as to what to expect when they contact a "professional". You guys have instilled about as much confidence in your profession as Toyota has in gas pedals. I personally am embarassed for you.
    David,
    I have read most if not all of your post, so I know you are very knowledgeable. I am surprised at this post, it sounds like some Confucius BS. If you had followed this resurrected thread from it's new beginning I don't think this would be your stance. Of course you can not go back and read through all the post because she has deleted most of her post. Think there might be a reason for that?

    If you have been following all along then I am really confused!


  5. #70
    Georgeta Danila's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    David,
    I have read most if not all of your post, so I know you are very knowledgeable. I am surprised at this post, it sounds like some Confucius BS. If you had followed this resurrected thread from it's new beginning I don't think this would be your stance. Of course you can not go back and read through all the post because she has deleted most of her post. Think there might be a reason for that?

    If you have been following all along then I am really confused!
    Let's put it in this way: I deleted the posts because I didn't want to participate anymore in this rude discussion. Actually I am thinking not to use this website because of your rude and despotic behavior. Sorry guys, but you seem pretty limited in sharing your knowledge in a polite way. Now, you are making me think about what I heard when I came in US 4 years ago. East coast and West Coast are very different than middle and south of US. You guys show this in your behavior. I design gardens in NY and CT and I never met in those areas such close minded people.


  6. #71

    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    "After that, they will bury you with hyper-detailed, jargon-encrusted blather to the point that even the most competent general contractor would run from your job wringing his hands and chanting in tongues. "

    Well said AD.
    Sometimes I will "learn" something from this site, other times it provides comic relief from the day to day grind.

    Identify the minimum code which is adopted, get a reputable contractor, secure your permits and call for the required inspections.


  7. #72
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Sistering or shimming the joists (assuming you even have joists) or floating a floor leveling compound won't cure the problem, if for example the ledger for the joists has pulled out, beam pockets crumbling, etc., the beam or girder has slipped, or the girder's or Beam support is under-engineered, damaged, is failing or missing (posts/columns supporting & transfering load every x feet, etc.).

    More often than not that is the problem. As described by "the husband" the floors slope DOWN to the beam/girder. Band-aids and extra weight may well just make the "real problem" worse. Residential occupancies in 1925 didn't incorporate the furniture & use loads that we minimally use today. If some idiot below removed supports (hubby mentioned columns are every 10 feet) to "open up the space" THAT also could explain the sagging/sloping floors. (post & beam squares IS the most likely construction condition based upon what had been previously described, and is now deleted!). A four (plus?!) story brick structure isn't and wasn't built like a 1-2 story structure.

    Note also plans to "expose brick" - thus negating existing fireblocking/draft stopping already present; and no remediation/protection to the structure.

    Those that followed the posts real-time know that this "condo" building has at least four occupied floors - how many more than that, or its overall size and type of construction we do not know - only supposedly that the building was constructed circa 1925, and was apparently brick construction with steel floor support let in on 10' squares.

    The latest "excuse" for deleting HER OWN posts doesn't make the least bit of sense - its a TROLL tactic (as "she" continues to post inappropriate, rude, untrue, complaining, American-bashing, "biting the hands that feed" commentary). IN participants owe this person nothing. The time to discover the sloping floor, examine the causes and explore/consider options, including to NOT purchase, was long before they closed on the Condo. If they "missed" the defects - shame on them for not getting an HI and/or following up on the report. They "bought" vintage, bouncy, noisy, sloping floors, expecting the HOA to take the slope out of the floors, make structurally stiffer/stronger, for their tastes, if there is no structural failure, to 21st century "standards" is unrealistic.

    Finally, I wouldn't put much faith/rely upon 1925 blueprints accurately representing the seen & unseen converted Condo, nor their limited, mostly nonsensical (now mostly deleted) descriptions/assumptions of the structural components. Your 1925 building "Condo" wasn't built as a "condo" in 1925 in NYS, I guarantee you that. Plywood structural subfloor wasn't used in 1925. A qualified structural Engineer review/report comes before your architectual/ "decorating" vision. I've come across quite a few posts by similar names & topic, they change the neighborhood/village location (Sunnydale, Bronxville, etc.) slightly and the vintage of the "Condo" or "Apartment" (1925, 1930s) but it gets down to Romanians wanting to take down two walls, fix floor slope and remodel DIY with unlicensed illegals, no permits, no permission from the HOA, hiding the work & work products (secreting debris in containers and flydumping) while neighbors are away at work. When their self-justifications are questioned they get ugly.

    Examples: Remodeling Rules - Condo (Bronxville, Fine: real estate, apartments, insurance) - New York City - New York (NY) - City-Data Forum

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-02-2010 at 10:48 AM.

  8. #73
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Allen View Post
    Identify the minimum code which is adopted, get a reputable contractor, secure your permits and call for the required inspections.

    Bruce,

    You are completely missing the main course of the discussion - the fact that she is desiring to work on a structure she does not own.

    Would you like her to be your neighbor and start tearing into your wall because it was blocking her view?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #74
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    David Bell "There are times that a student fails a teacher. More often than not the teacher fails the student, whether it be the teachers vanity,or just his attitude that he is superior to whom he is attempting to "enlighten". These people in good faith came to this forum to learn the best way to proceed with thier problem. What they recieved was an education as to what to expect when they contact a "professional". You guys have instilled about as much confidence in your profession as Toyota has in gas pedals. I personally am embarassed for you."

    Well said David Bell.

    Nobody on this thread knows anything about this building.How can anyone give an opinion on the structure of a building that they have never seen?


  10. #75
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Sigh ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    Nobody on this thread knows anything about this building.
    If you are a home inspector you should know about CONDOS, and that is the center element in this discussion.

    How can anyone give an opinion on the structure of a building that they have never seen?
    By virtue of knowing about CONDOS.

    If you are not aware of the differences between CONDOS, single-family, and other structures, you should not be a home inspector.

    If you are aware of those differences ... you would know about the discussion and the reason for it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #76
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    You do not know any thing about this building or where it is located.I thought you were the legal man.You give opinions on buildings that you know nothing about.I could give an opinion about you but then I have never met you so I could be wrong.Any respect that you had on this site is quickly eroding.You can talk and talk but your not saying much just the usual verbal diarrhea.


  12. #77
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    You do not know any thing about this building or where it is located.
    I, and you, know what we were TOLD ... for crying out loud, Michael, grow up and READ THE FRIGGIN' posts, then RESPOND to what was written, not to what you think you thought you wanted it to say.

    The rest of your post was just as lame as that part.

    At least Aaron answered her question on HOW, you guys have added nothing to the discussion.

    The problem with answering her question as to HOW is that the answer should have included "HOW" followed by "BUT IT IS NOT YOUR STRUCTURE" followed by "so don't YOU do it" ending with "the ASSOCIATION WHICH OWNS THE STRUCTURE is the one to do it".

    *WE* *ALL* *KNOW* (should KNOW if one has been reading and paying attention instead of hanging around in ones own world of make believe) that she stated it was a *CONDO*. Jeez, man, can't you even read?

    And, as soon as we (supposedly we are all knowledgeable and experienced home inspectors here) KNOW a structure is a CONDO we should also KNOW that the UNIT OWNER ... IS NOT ... the owner of the STRUCTURE ... that the ASSOCIATION ... is the owner of the STRUCTURE, and the STRUCTURE is what she was going to be working on - WE WERE TOLD THAT MUCH.

    Get a grip and get hold of yourself. Allow your head to shrink back to its normal size, let that wet matter in there work for once, THINK man, THINK, surely you know what a CONDO is ... don't you?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #78
    Mihai Danila's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Hey everyone,

    I'm sorry we've stirred up so much stuff around here.

    There's still a disconnect, as Jerry Peck consistently points out. He feels that by hiring a contractor to do structural work, we're doing it ourselves in a certain way. He continues by pointing out that the association should do the work (presumably by hiring a contractor themselves). Well, that's not how things go around here. The association gets a plan signed off by a licensed architect and says "yes, this structural work is go". They then give the green light to a contractor chosen by us. The contractor must be properly licensed in the state of New York, yadda yadda. In other words, our contractor does the work per the legal requirements set forth by our association. I hope this settles that point.

    I must apologize for a few things: barging in the middle of a thread instead of starting our own (you could have told us to move to a different thread sooner, you know). Anyway, I apologize. What else? I don't think there's anything else to apologize for, really. I'm not planning to do any work myself. I'll hire a licensed contractor as mandated by our association. No aplogy for this.

    As Romanians, we're not bypassing any rules. We'll do this by the book. But that doesn't mean we'll throw our money at whomever and wait for the work to be complete. No. We want to know every little detail. We want to be fully aware if somebody is bypassing necessary work or doing work improperly. We don't want to be featured on Holmes on Homes, if you get my drift. I couldn't care less if that will offend the contractor. If they don't like it, I'll look for another contractor. If no contractor wants to do it, I will leave the floor be and spend my money on something else. This desire of ours is non-negotiable -- you may well decline to answer, but we'll ask somewhere else if you do.

    We have a neighbor here in the complex who's a contractor -- we've checked him out as part of our effort. He's renovated his apartment, he's even moved pipes in his bathroom. He asked the super about moving the pipes; the super suggested not to report to the association that he would move the pipes, because that would require a licensed plumber and that would raise his costs. So he didn't report it. Now, may I say "friggin americans trying to bypass the rules and do a shitty job"? That bit about Romanians trying to bypass the rules was unwarranted.

    Now, I understand spirits can get excited, but let's relax for a change, and cut this short. We'll open a new thread if we have any more questions.

    Thank you all very much for your input.

    Last edited by Mihai Danila; 03-02-2010 at 11:12 PM.

  14. #79
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    You sound so upset Gerry. Maybe you should renew your prescriptions Gerry, continue with the meds and don't sit out in the sun for too long.So go ahead and have the last word Gerry,I know you like to flap your gums.


  15. #80
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihai Danila View Post
    There's still a disconnect, as Jerry Peck consistently points out. He feels that by hiring a contractor to do structural work, we're doing it ourselves in a certain way. He continues by pointing out that the association should do the work (presumably by hiring a contractor themselves). Well, that's not how things go around here. The association gets a plan signed off by a licensed architect and says "yes, this structural work is go". They then give the green light to a contractor chosen by us. The contractor must be properly licensed in the state of New York, yadda yadda. In other words, our contractor does the work per the legal requirements set forth by our association. I hope this settles that point.

    It does answer that point.

    Just keep in mind that even if the association does sign off on it, and you have an architect and a contractor, and everything is permitted and inspected, that you still 'are buying' the repair as it is at your discretion and choice. I would take extra special care with a 3rd party inspector to make sure that all fireblocking and firestopping needed as per TODAY'S CODE is done as the work on the existing structure is required to be done to the current code in effect at the time of the work - so don't let your contractor say 'I don't need to do that, we do that now-a-days, but back-then it was not required so it is not required now' - if your contractor says that they are incorrect.

    Then it gets back to the other posts - that of Aaron showing one method of repair. And, as I stated, that method can be used to take the sagging out of the floor, and do so with care as you can install new floor joists to support the floor while leaving the existing floor joists to support the ceiling below (rather than trying to straighten out years of deflection in the joists and crack the ceiling below - but I pointed that out above too). You don't want to fix something for your unit and in the process damage something in the adjacent units, which should have been able to have gone without saying, but that too was stated in posts above when the discussion veered in that direction.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 03-04-2010 at 05:35 PM. Reason: now-a-says should have been now-a-days - dang speelin'
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #81
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    You sound so upset Gerry. Maybe you should renew your prescriptions Gerry, continue with the meds and don't sit out in the sun for too long.So go ahead and have the last word Gerry,I know you like to flap your gums.
    Michelle,

    I have no problems and am not in need of any meds.

    I find it truly inconceivable that any home inspector would continue telling someone to do something they should not do even after it has been pointed out that it should not be done that way.

    Not sure if that is ignorance or arrogance, but it is a stupid course of action either way.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #82
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mihai Danila View Post
    We were considering having a third party inspector come up, even throughout the work. I'm not sure how that will go with the contractor.
    That goes like this with the contractor (having been third party inspector before):

    You (to contractor): I am having a 3rd party inspector on-site during the work to make sure it is all done properly.

    Dumb Contractor (responding to you): No way! Not on MY JOB!

    You: Maybe not on YOUR job at YOUR house, but this is MY JOB at MY house and *I* am paying you, so you have two choices: a) YOU WILL make whatever corrections my 3rd party inspector wants; b) Good bye. YOUR CHOICE, which is it? (Actually, those contractors are the ones I would give only one choice to, and it is not really a choice: b) Good bye. Then find a good contractor.)

    Smart Contractor (responding to you): Sure, no problem, I'm always glad to have another set of eyes that someone else is paying for, makes the overall job better. (I've worked with several contractors of this type before, and it does make the entire job turn out better. Takes a little longer, sure, but the end result is worth it.)

    That might create a trust issue, more so than our intent to be informed on every little detail.
    No trust issue created when you are working a Smart Contractor.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #83
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That goes like this with the contractor (having been third party inspector before):

    You (to contractor): I am having a 3rd party inspector on-site during the work to make sure it is all done properly.

    Dumb Contractor (responding to you): No way! Not on MY JOB!

    You: Maybe not on YOUR job at YOUR house, but this is MY JOB at MY house and *I* am paying you, so you have two choices: a) YOU WILL make whatever corrections my 3rd party inspector wants; b) Good bye. YOUR CHOICE, which is it? (Actually, those contractors are the ones I would give only one choice to, and it is not really a choice: b) Good bye. Then find a good contractor.)

    Smart Contractor (responding to you): Sure, no problem, I'm always glad to have another set of eyes that someone else is paying for, makes the overall job better. (I've worked with several contractors of this type before, and it does make the entire job turn out better. Takes a little longer, sure, but the end result is worth it.)



    No trust issue created when you are working a Smart Contractor.
    Make that an honorable and honest as well as smart and agree 100%.

    Who has the gold rules. Your way or the highway. (Et cetera, etc.).


  19. #84
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Make that an honorable and honest as well as smart and agree 100%.
    That was inherent in my definition of a Smart Contractor as any contractor who is not honorable and honest simply cannot be, at least in my book, a "Smart Contractor".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #85
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Georgeta Danila View Post
    Let's put it in this way: I deleted the posts because I didn't want to participate anymore in this rude discussion. Actually I am thinking not to use this website because of your rude and despotic behavior. Sorry guys, but you seem pretty limited in sharing your knowledge in a polite way. Now, you are making me think about what I heard when I came in US 4 years ago. East coast and West Coast are very different than middle and south of US. You guys show this in your behavior. I design gardens in NY and CT and I never met in those areas such close minded people.

    I have tried to follow this and have difficulty in understanding what happened. I'm disappointed that you are pulling the "I am new here.." card, In my travels I have found politeness is the same in Europe as it is here in the US.

    (1) You made some statements-----be Man/Woman enough to stand behind them--right or wrong. If wrong, accept corrections if applicable and move on. Don't ever be afraid to say "I've screwed up---I did it." That's how you learn.

    (2) Based upon your spoon feeding of information, suggestions were made for resolution. You'll have to understand that sometimes there are different solutions to an issue, and each will have its stout defender.

    (3) This is not a fluffy BS site as others on the Internet or on TV. This site has real experienced people who actually do the work----not actors. Some are contractors, Home Inspectors, and others in the construction field. They come from all over the country and have seen many different solutions to an issue. There may be differences. And, consequently some responses may be gruff. Live with it. Remember, you elected to visit this site and ask a question.

    (4) It is really disappointing that you spoon fed the people here, then became indignant when the folks found out and demonstrated their disapproval at being lead down the primrose path by you.

    (5) I take exception to your statement about areas in the the US being fluffy or harsh. How you treat others dictates how you are are treated. From your use of English in your posts (I did read some of the others before you deleted them)-----shame on you for trying to hide behind "I don't speak good English".

    Your English is excellent. But let me suggest a few things when you interface with people. Remember, English at its best is a hazardous language.

    When communicating with people by writing, explain what you want at the start. You are not talking, you are writing-----tell everything. The first short paragraph should be a summary of the problem followed by detail in the remaining message. If you say something---stand by what you have said-----do not delete it and skulk off in the night. Apologize when necessary.

    You need to bite the bullet and apologize to the folks in this group who tried to help you.


  21. #86
    Georgeta Danila's Avatar
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I have tried to follow this and have difficulty in understanding what happened. I'm disappointed that you are pulling the "I am new here.." card, In my travels I have found politeness is the same in Europe as it is here in the US.

    (1) You made some statements-----be Man/Woman enough to stand behind them--right or wrong. If wrong, accept corrections if applicable and move on. Don't ever be afraid to say "I've screwed up---I did it." That's how you learn.

    (2) Based upon your spoon feeding of information, suggestions were made for resolution. You'll have to understand that sometimes there are different solutions to an issue, and each will have its stout defender.

    (3) This is not a fluffy BS site as others on the Internet or on TV. This site has real experienced people who actually do the work----not actors. Some are contractors, Home Inspectors, and others in the construction field. They come from all over the country and have seen many different solutions to an issue. There may be differences. And, consequently some responses may be gruff. Live with it. Remember, you elected to visit this site and ask a question.

    (4) It is really disappointing that you spoon fed the people here, then became indignant when the folks found out and demonstrated their disapproval at being lead down the primrose path by you.

    (5) I take exception to your statement about areas in the the US being fluffy or harsh. How you treat others dictates how you are are treated. From your use of English in your posts (I did read some of the others before you deleted them)-----shame on you for trying to hide behind "I don't speak good English".

    Your English is excellent. But let me suggest a few things when you interface with people. Remember, English at its best is a hazardous language.

    When communicating with people by writing, explain what you want at the start. You are not talking, you are writing-----tell everything. The first short paragraph should be a summary of the problem followed by detail in the remaining message. If you say something---stand by what you have said-----do not delete it and skulk off in the night. Apologize when necessary.

    You need to bite the bullet and apologize to the folks in this group who tried to help you.
    I never said that I don't speak good English. I speak very well but the English terminology in certain fields is not common for me. Although, I know the architecture field pretty well. Actually I speak 2 languages and my husband 4. Yes, you are right about the fact that I didn't explain from the beginning very well. But from a simple question people got very excited and started to talk to much with a certain superiority. Just to let you know guys. I just met the structural engineer and he told me that he never met such prepared, educated and informed people in the renovation area like us. I will not apologize to somebody who was rude with me.

    Last edited by Georgeta Danila; 03-08-2010 at 01:55 PM.

  22. #87
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    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Here's my suggestions/repair options.

    #1 Provide temporary support, replace damaged joists from pocket to support beam.

    #2 Provide temporary support, cut damaged joists back 4-6 feet from pocket, splice and sister so that joist lines up with original pocket. Sister both sides of joist splices, use construction adhesive along with carriage bolts to make a strong secure splice.

    #3 If practical widen joist pocket so that you can simply sister the joist.

    #4 Install a ledger and/or support posts along foundation wall. Typically the foundation footing will have a curb that you will allow you to install a support post right against foundation wall. If you do this make sure to use treated lumber, and consider installing tar paper as a moisture barrier between wood and concrete.

    #5 Hire a licensed and qualified contractor is all of this seems to confusing.


  23. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Lansdale, PA
    Posts
    876

    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by michael coffey View Post
    The house I just bought has some serious floor joist issues. first of all the footprint of the house is about 30X60. There are pillars running every 10' or so that break the crawlspace up into two seperat 15X60 areas. The center beam of the house spans these pillars. The joists run 15' from the main support beam to a brick pocket in the foundation wall. Each of these pockets is just big enough for one joist to fit into.

    Now the problem is that this house had water damage in the past and about 30 of the floor joists are rotted at the outside foundation wall. Thankfully there was no plate in this design, so the rot was confined to the floor joists, but the floor joists have rotted so much in these brick pockets that the joists have crumbled and the floor has fallen 2'' in some places.

    I would sister new joists onto the old ones but there is no room in the pocket to support a second joist. A friend told me to cut all the bad joists back three feet to the good wood, then add a three foot section of new joist from the pocket up to the old joist, by sandwiching both the new and old joist on each side with long metal plates using 12 to 16 bolts.

    Will this work or will it sag? I tend to think it will sag. If i'm right and it won't work, how do i fix the problem? The joists are only 2X8 and they are on 16'' centers. I really don't want to have to add another support beam at the seam of the old and new joists.

    Please help this poor idiot.
    I design repairs for problems like this quite often. The designs vary depending upon conditions. In many cases where joists are pocketed into a masonry foundation wall the rot is only very close to the FW. In cases like that the ledger is a possible option, but usually when I see this condition the foundation walls are stone or block. Attaching a ledger to either is typically not practical. One common approach I take is to construct a frame wall adjacent to the foundation wall. If a footing projects out from the FW or if there is a good slab then the wall can typically rest on the footing or FW. The joists then rest on the top plate of the wall.

    Sistering is also an option, but this can involve more work. you need to enlarge the pockets for the sister joist. The problem in many cases with sister joists is that you need long sisters and many fasteners to transfer the shear and moment. I have sometimes used steel angles for sistering when the damage is limited to near the end. You do not need to enlarge the pocket as much, but the steel will corrode is not protected properly.

    As others have stated, 2x8s at 15 feet are over-spanned. Sistering full length with 2x10s woul;d be best. With full length sisters you do not need many fasteners (only enough to hold the joist in place) since the new joist is supported at both ends (and I am assuming the sister joists bear against the sub-flooring). Otherwise more fasteners are needed, but typically less than with partial length sisters. You can notch the ends up to 1/4 of the depth, so using the larger joists is not a problem.

    If you are using full length sisters with a frame wall adjacent to the foundation, then you can get the new joists in place before building the wall. If pocketing in the FW then you need to slide the new joists back over the main beam and then into the pocket. With a sagging floor that is not easy. Sometimes the joists can be over-notched and then shimmed back up or can be taper cut at the top edge. Another option is to add a ledger at the main beam to support the joists. Most old main beams are undersized or have deflected quite a bit anyway, so this can serve to reinforce the beam.

    Its best to have an engineer who is familiar with repair design to design the repair. I seldom see repairs designed by contractors that are correct. In many cases the repairs are inadequate. In some cases the repairs are fine, but are over-designed and way more expensive than needed.


  24. #89
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    34

    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Georgeta and Mihai:

    The folks here are so paranoid about litigation that they will direct you to cover your asses with everyone from the Latino blowing the leaves in your yard to the Department of Homeland Security, before you even consider changing the locks on your doors.

    After that, they will bury you with hyper-detailed, jargon-encrusted blather to the point that even the most competent general contractor would run from your job wringing his hands and chanting in tongues.
    I know this is a really old thread but, the above is exactly why I send time here reading and thinking about the different opinions. Once you have been around the block a few times over a few years , the only way your still around is by being paranoid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Georgeta and Mihai:

    The folks here are so paranoid about litigation that they will direct you to cover your asses with everyone from the Latino blowing the leaves in your yard to the Department of Homeland Security, before you even consider changing the locks on your doors.

    After that, they will bury you with hyper-detailed, jargon-encrusted blather to the point that even the most competent general contractor would run from your job wringing his hands and chanting in tongues.
    I know this is a really old thread but, the above is exactly why I send time here reading and thinking about the different opinions. Once you have been around the block a few times over a few years , the only way your still around is by being paranoid.


  25. #90

    Default Re: how do i fix floor joists when sistering isn't an option?

    Just to add to all the doom and gloom........ no one has specifically mentioned the use of lead base paint and coatings and the use of asbestos in many products of the 1920's. Add two specialists to your list of contractors to address those concerns. Lowe's just coughed up 500K to settle an EPA suit on lead abatement procedures. Have you considered selling and moving after all of this?


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