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  1. #1
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    Default Garage to house fire separation

    Obviously, the gaps between the drywall and this beam need to be sealed. But, what about the beam itself? Does it have to be wrapped in drywall?

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    I say yes, according to current requirements. See
    2008 Oregon Structural Specialty Code

    R309.2 for details.

    Who knows what they "required" when that place was built.


  3. #3
    Jeff Remas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    yes it does.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Thanks guys.... it was 2001 built. I was 99% sure it did... I just thought I'd throw it out there.

    Since a +/- 2" thick wood door qualifies as separation, why not a beam with a depth of 4+ inches extending below the surrounding ceiling? That was what got me thinking anyway.


  5. #5
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Thanks guys.... it was 2001 built. I was 99% sure it did... I just thought I'd throw it out there.

    Since a +/- 2" thick wood door qualifies as separation, why not a beam with a depth of 4+ inches extending below the surrounding ceiling? That was what got me thinking anyway.
    Like this one.

    Best

    Ron

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Is there living space above it?

    If so, then the ceiling needs to be at least 5/8" Type X.

    If so, then the beam and its supporting members (that column) also need to be protected by at least 1/2" gypsum board.

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - R309.2 Separation required.
    The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side. Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than 5/8-inch (15.9 mm) Type X gypsum board or equivalent. Where the separation is a floor-ceiling assembly, the structure supporting the separation shall also be protected by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board or equivalent. Garages located less than 3 feet (914 mm) from a dwelling unit on the same lot shall be protected with not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area. Openings in these walls shall be regulated by Section R309.1. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.



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  7. #7

    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Since a +/- 2" thick wood door qualifies as separation, why not a beam with a depth of 4+ inches extending below the surrounding ceiling? That was what got me thinking anyway.
    I've got a degree in Structural Fire Science. I used to deal with this stuff, but that was years ago.

    I would say that there are several reasons. The first one is that there will not be much of a heat load up against the door (who stores a bunch of crap next to a door?). Heat rises, so there will be much more heat on the ceiling than the walls. Also, a door is a non structural member, while if the beam fails, there are other problems. Keep in mind, I think the whole house will be toast before that solid beam fails, but....


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    If the beam is a nominal 6X10 or greater, than no, it doesn't have to be protected.

    It would be classified as 'heavy timber' which is required for type IV construction.

    Darren www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    If the beam is a nominal 6X10 or greater, than no, it doesn't have to be protected.

    It would be classified as 'heavy timber' which is required for type IV construction.

    They typical dwelling unit is Type V construction, one large beam does not make it Type IV construction.

    That is still a "beam" in the garage and needs to be protected as there is living space above it.

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Jerry,

    I never said the garage was type IV construction; I said the beam was HT and doesn't need protection.

    Let's look at it this way; the beam is now a Steel I beam, would you protect that? No, it's rating is already greater than that which is required for garage separation.

    Last edited by Darren Miller; 01-28-2009 at 11:06 AM. Reason: spelling
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    I never said the garage was type IV construction; I said the beam was HT and doesn't need protection.

    Let's look at it this way; the beam is now a Steel I beam, would you protect that? No, it's rating is already greater than that which is required for garage separation.
    Darren,

    You will need to show me where that does *not* need to be protected.

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining is mine)

    - R309.2 Separation required. The garage shall be separated from the residence and its attic area by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the garage side. Garages beneath habitable rooms shall be separated from all habitable rooms above by not less than 5/8-inch (15.9 mm) Type X gypsum board or equivalent. Where the separation is a floor-ceiling assembly, the structure supporting the separation shall also be protected by not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board or equivalent. Garages located less than 3 feet (914 mm) from a dwelling unit on the same lot shall be protected with not less than 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) gypsum board applied to the interior side of exterior walls that are within this area. Openings in these walls shall be regulated by Section R309.1. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Read starting at the bottom of page 2

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Darren www.aboutthehouseinspections.com
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    Let's look at it this way; the beam is now a Steel I beam, would you protect that? No, it's rating is already greater than that which is required for garage separation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    Read starting at the bottom of page 2

    Me thinks you need to read that too.

    "If the girder is smaller than three 2-inch by 10-inch members, of engineered lumber or of steel construction, it must be encased in a minimum of two layers of 1/2-inch thick, Type X gypsum wallboard. "

    Do I hear an "Oops." from up there? It sure sounded like one.

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  14. #14
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Come on folks.

    A beam in a garage or exposed wood or metal support in a garage. I don't care if it is a 1/2 thick steel I beam 16 inches high. If the garage is attached to the home and it is exposed in the ceiling or wall of the garage attached to the home and it is not wrapped I write it up. Whether it has one, two or six layers on it I could care less. I cannot see the layers unless I watched them wrap it.

    You know. I never built a garage that was attached to a home that I did not completely drywall and between the home and garage at the minimum I ran 5/8 drywall. Usually the whole garage in 5/8 fire code. Why wouldn't I. Most of the time I used sound board and then 5/8 or just 2 layers of 5/8 between the home and garage. Overkill ? Maybe!


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Come on folks.

    A beam in a garage or exposed wood or metal support in a garage. I don't care if it is a 1/2 thick steel I beam 16 inches high. If the garage is attached to the home and it is exposed in the ceiling or wall of the garage attached to the home and it is not wrapped I write it up.

    Ted,

    Yes, but ...

    Some people just look for ways to find the bottom, then they feed there, not understanding that the bottom they found was not what they thought it was.

    Not saying anyone is a bottom feeder, mind you, only that some look for every way they can to come up with a lower bottom.

    Code is minimum to start with, when there are gray areas, why on earth try to interpret that to something less, and why there is no gray area, why try to make it a gray area just so you can try to interpret it to be less than is stated ... just boggles my mind, I tell you.

    Code is minimum, and the code itself comes right out and states that if there is a conflict "the most restrictive shall apply". That clearly means the code knows it is minimum (it is intended to be) and that if there are any conflicts, for heavens sake, the most restrictive shall apply.

    It really is that simple.

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    If the beam is a nominal 6X10 or greater, than no, it doesn't have to be protected.

    It would be classified as 'heavy timber' which is required for type IV construction.

    Here's what I said in the original post.

    You know Jerry, I'm almost surprised you didn't attack the attachment, I mean it was only supplied by a code administration authority.

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    If the beam is a nominal 6X10 or greater, than no, it doesn't have to be protected.

    It would be classified as 'heavy timber' which is required for type IV construction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    Here's what I said in the original post.
    That's precisely my point ... YOU SAID "It would be classified as 'heavy timber' ... " - I SAID "That is still a "beam" in the garage ... ".

    It would not be classified as heavy timber.

    - 602.4 Type IV. Type IV construction (Heavy Timber, HT) is that type of construction in which the exterior walls are of noncombustible materials and the interior building elements are of solid or laminated wood without concealed spaces. The details of Type IV construction shall comply with the provisions of this section. Fire-retardant-treated wood framing complying with Section 2303.2 shall be permitted within exterior wall assemblies with a 2-hour rating or less. Minimum solid sawn nominal dimensions are required for structures built using Type IV construction (HT). For glued-laminated members the equivalent net finished width and depths corresponding to the minimum nominal width and depths of solid sawn lumber are required as specified in Table 602.4.

    - Table 602.4
    - - Minimum Nominal Solid Sawn Size
    - - - (the following are listed sizes) 8x8, 6x10, 6x8, 6x6, and 4x6

    Are you saying that any/every 4x6 is a "heavy timber"?

    You know Jerry, I'm almost surprised you didn't attack the attachment, I mean it was only supplied by a code administration authority.

    No need to. They can adopt what they want for their state, most states know better.

    Besides, YOU stated that steel did not need to be protected, yet the document which governs YOUR state and which YOU linked to stated otherwise. Which was fitting as you were trying to show that I was wrong (when referencing OTHER states too) and ended up showing that you were wrong in your own state.

    Hey, not to worry, I've done it too, but then I say so. You have not, you are still trying to deflect all eyes to me - which is okay, I can handle that - I've "been there, done that" , looks like you cannot.

    I find it interesting that you and Roland are in the sand box kicking sand, telling me you do not want me to come into your sand box, while all the time I am outside the sandbox having a good time with the others.

    Scott, again, sorry about that sand going your way, I just cannot block it being kicked by both at the same time. Jus' got ta git me dat "faster horse" da man kept talkin' 'bout.


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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Jerry,

    In my post above, I was simply stating what is indeed fact here in NJ; a beam that is composed of at least 3, 2x10ís does not need additional Ďfire protectioní.
    So, if a home inspector here in NJ called it out as a defect, he/she would look incompetent when in fact, it got Ďover-ruledí by the local township. By the way, the FTO posted is directed at private garage located below living space in single family home construction. Here in NJ, 2 layers of 5/8 type X is required on ceilings of garages when living space is above.
    Should the beam be covered; sure, it would then be hidden and the garage would look much better; but it doesnít have to be (at least here in NJ). You and others can criticize NJís code all you want; but other states have used ours as a model.

    Can I admit my mistakes; sure, Iíve made plenty of them through-out my 50 years. Of course, one of them was posting about the steel I beam. I mis-read it; I honestly thought I read where steel & Engineered lumber did not need protection. Of course I also thought I hit the reply button and in fact, I hit the report button.

    As far as playing in a sandbox; I have no idea what your talking about. Iím too old to be playing in sand; it works its way up my butt cheeks.

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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    As far as playing in a sandbox; I have no idea what your talking about. Iím too old to be playing in sand; it works its way up my butt cheeks.
    That's one of the reasons I'm outside the sandbox with the others. Maybe the sand was just some Roland kicked and it came by you, looking like you kicked it.

    Either way, my apologies to Scott for him getting sand kicked on him.

    Your post above was informative and well written.

    The original question was from Matt in Oregon, and to the discussion about that beam in that garage, you stated:
    Quote Originally Posted by Darren Miller View Post
    If the beam is a nominal 6X10 or greater, than no, it doesn't have to be protected.
    Your post above explains why it would need protection in NJ. Thank you for explaining that.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Assuming that the beam is in the garage and not a part of the fire separation wall, I would say that the exposed beam is fine AS LONG AS there is a proper 5/8 type x barrier between the garage and the house all the way up to the roof deck. Technically, that's all you need. Garages are not required to have any drywall on the ceiling or walls that don't abut another occupancy classification. However, if there is not a barrier as described above, the ceiling drywall is part of the fire separation and the beam should be covered.

    Last edited by Wayne Price; 01-30-2009 at 09:59 AM. Reason: Added clarification

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    With the beam exposed, how as inspectors are we sure the beam-drywall intersection is not somewhere for CO to come in?


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    With the beam exposed, how as inspectors are we sure the beam-drywall intersection is not somewhere for CO to come in?

    You mean combustion air?

    Because the way the gypsum board would be attached to the beam (supported along the edges at the beam) would make that very highly unlikely (there likely is a 2x4 or 2x2 running along the beam the gypsum board is attached to).

    Regardless, though, you are asking about "the space" between the gypsum board and we are talking about "protecting the beam" - the beam would need protection regardless, and, if those spaces are actually "openings", then those openings create their own problems - see other thread regarding combustion air duct through garage ceiling - those "openings" along the beam would be doing the same thing - violating the separation.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Darren,
    I am surprised that the door between the garage and the interior living space doesn't need to have a closer attached. This doesn't seem correct to me or am I missing something?

    Jeff Moore


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by J Moore View Post
    Darren,
    I am surprised that the door between the garage and the interior living space doesn't need to have a closer attached. This doesn't seem correct to me or am I missing something?

    Jeff Moore
    Jeff,

    Unless the door is in an actual fire-resistance rated assembly, the door does not need a closer.

    Garage separation from living areas are not (unless a specific area requires it) "fire resistance rated assemblies", they are simply walls with Gypsum board on them - not even Type X gypsum board.

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Thanks Jerry for the reply. My confusion exists because here in Arizona our Board ( Bureau of Technical Registration" refers to garage to interior doors as "fire separation doors".


    Jeff


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Jeff,

    You need to check and see if they are requiring "fire-resistance rated assemblies" for the wall, if so, there could be a lot more you would need to look at.

    I doubt you will find that requirement, thus there is no reason to call those doors "fire separation doors". Do they require "fire-resistance rated doors"? Or are solid wood, foam filled metal, etc., doors acceptable too?

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  27. #27
    Wayne Price's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    We're getting a little off topic here but. . . The self-closing door requirement does depend greatly upon where you are located. Here in CA, garage doors have to be self-closing. However, I have seen codes, especially in the South, which do not have that requirement. It is even common practice to have a screen door in the garage to allow ventilation between the two occupancies. That's one of the many reasons that CA has not yet adopted the IRC, and we'll probably modify it when we do.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Price View Post
    However, I have seen codes, especially in the South, which do not have that requirement. It is even common practice to have a screen door in the garage to allow ventilation between the two occupancies.
    That may be common practice, but it certainly is not allowed by code.

    That's one of the many reasons that CA has not yet adopted the IRC, and we'll probably modify it when we do.
    If you are referring to screen doors, the IRC *DOES NOT ALLOW THAT*, if you are referring to self-closing doors, correct, the IRC does not require that.

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Thanks for the clarification, Jerry. As I said, I'm not very familiar with the IRC because we don't use it here yet. We're supposed to start using it with the 2010 code cycle, which means it will be in effect in 2011. I'm still learning my way around the 2007 code.

    Anyway, is the original poster satisfied with the answers he has received?


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Price View Post

    Anyway, is the original poster satisfied with the answers he has received?

    Yep... more than satisfied.

    It's amazing how a fleeting thought in a garage I'm inspecting can turn into an in depth education. The longer the threads are with questions I ask, the better I feel about having thrown it out there.


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Jerry, you talk about that 'no closer for garage/house door, **** are you serious!? is there no code there for a door closer on garage to house, door?


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Jerry, you talk about that 'no closer for garage/house door, **** are you serious!? is there no code there for a door closer on garage to house, door?
    Yep. Serious.

    The IRC does not require it, remember *IT IS NOT* a "fire rated wall assembly".

    There are a few places which have amended the IRC (such as CA) to require the garage/house door to be self-closing.

    The old South Florida Building Code (both the Dade County Edition and the Broward County Edition required it), but they are long gone now, supplanted by the Florida Building Codes.)

    Check you area to make sure it is a "requirement" if you think it is, it most likely 'is not'. If it is, also check to see what the requirement for the door is - does the door have to be a 20 minute rated door? If not, why bother self-closing it? Does the wall have to be a fire-rated wall assembly - if not, why bother self-closing the door?

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Oh, there's no doubt it's a fire rated door required, in fact I know it is, just surprised to hear that it's not the case down there. Weird hun, seems like a no brainer to me.


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Oh, there's no doubt it's a fire rated door required, in fact I know it is, just surprised to hear that it's not the case down there. Weird hun, seems like a no brainer to me.
    Is that wall a fire-rated wall?

    If not, the fire-rated door is a waste. That's a no brainer.

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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Oh yeah, the wall is fire rated too, doesn't seem weird to you does it? Only makes sense I'd say, the whole garage is protected by codes to ensure safety, but then you can have non fire rated and non self closing doors between garage and house, no way, makes no sense! I don't mean to be crazy but no way!!!


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    Default Re: Garage to house fire separation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Oh yeah, the wall is fire rated too,
    How is the wall constructed? (wood which has been fire-retardant treated? metal studs?)

    Of what? (1/2" gypsum board both sides? 5/8" Type X both sides?)

    What restrictions are placed on electrical boxes in that wall?

    Is the electrical panel allowed in that wall?

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