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  1. #1
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    Default Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Seems like I remember a requirement for multiple handrails for stairs greater than 4 feet wide.

    I rummaged around IRC chapter 3 and found lots of information about rails or guards but could not find the "4 foot rule".

    Am I dreaming or did I just make up the rule because it sounded neat?

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Am I dreaming or did I just make up the rule because it sounded neat?

    Bruce,

    Could be either.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    I believe it says when you can't get to a handrail within 30" then you must install an intermediate handrail.

    With that, then any stairway over 5 feet would require an additional handrail in the center.


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Seems like I remember a requirement for multiple handrails for stairs greater than 4 feet wide.

    I rummaged around IRC chapter 3 and found lots of information about rails or guards but could not find the "4 foot rule".

    Am I dreaming or did I just make up the rule because it sounded neat?

    Thanks!
    I have the very same memory/delusion. Ya mean it ain't true?

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Carlisle View Post
    I believe it says when you can't get to a handrail within 30" then you must install an intermediate handrail.

    With that, then any stairway over 5 feet would require an additional handrail in the center.
    I looked in the 2006 IRC and didn't see this, either.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Seems like I remember a requirement for multiple handrails for stairs greater than 4 feet wide.

    I rummaged around IRC chapter 3 and found lots of information about rails or guards but could not find the "4 foot rule".

    Am I dreaming or did I just make up the rule because it sounded neat?

    Thanks!
    Bruce Ramsey,

    I think you might be remembering a requirement for continuous handrail on at least one side when there are four or more riserson a continuous run of treads or flight (IRC 2003 R311.5.6; IRC 2001 required with two or more risers). Note: IBC requires 2 handrails some "residences" IBC applies not IRC.

    Four risers = four climbing or decending foot steps up or down from one elevation to the next.....four foot/feet/feets (as in "feets don't fail me now!")?

    IRC (2003+): Four or more foot-steps continuous handrail required, could that be your "four foot (step) rule"?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-31-2009 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    That requirement, or should I say one similar, is in the IBC, however, there is no requirement for such in the IRC.

    The requirement in the IBC is that no part of the required width be greater than 30" from a handrail.

    Thus the IBC part of the answer is: It depends on the "required width" and the width of the stairway.

    The IRC part of the answer is: No such requirement.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    The requirement that I have, If it is wider that 44 inches then a additional handrail must be provided. common sense can you reach farther than 44 inches to hold onto a handrail , not unless you are king kong.


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    checkout the Illustrated home edition 2 on page 318 illustration 1847 it shows if width is wider than 44 inches the additional handrail is needed.


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel nantell View Post
    The requirement that I have, If it is wider that 44 inches then a additional handrail must be provided. common sense can you reach farther than 44 inches to hold onto a handrail , not unless you are king kong.
    Quote Originally Posted by daniel nantell View Post
    checkout the Illustrated home edition 2 on page 318 illustration 1847 it shows if width is wider than 44 inches the additional handrail is needed.

    But to what *code* does that refer to?

    Are handrails on both sides and/or intermediate handrails ...

    Practical? Yes.

    Good/better/best construction practice? Yes.

    Required? No. Not by "minimum codes", not for dwelling units.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    I knew it was something out there somewhere! IBC....not IRC....brain fart here guys. Sorry!


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    But to what *code* does that refer to?

    Are handrails on both sides and/or intermediate handrails ...

    Practical? Yes.

    Good/better/best construction practice? Yes.

    Required? No. Not by "minimum codes", not for dwelling units.
    Depends on if constructed to IBC or IRC. Some "dwelling units" fall under IBC construction rules (one riser+ two continuous min.).

    However, back to the "four foot or feet rule" and the OP, you might have recalled something from a class about a singular continuous handrail and the four foot-steps (four risers) rule - and when said stair path also requires a guard on one side for part of the path and this is constructed with hand grip/rail - the continuous singular rail is required for the entire path - and may be on the opposite side, so that might have been where the memory connection short circuited thinking two required. Some instructors in explaining the four risers - mention four foot steps from one elevation to the next...notes, brain glitches, (I get them more these days) was offering a possible explanation for the short circuit translation


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    P.S. I don't know if they've put out a newer version, but you might find this link (free download) helpful.

    "Visual Interpretation of the International Residential Code 2003 Stair Building Code" from the Stairway Manufacturers Association (SMA).

    http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2003%20...C%20SCREEN.pdf

    If your stairway is straight, see page 8 of 16, drawing/figure 20.

    HTH,

    H.G.




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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Depends on if constructed to IBC or IRC. Some "dwelling units" fall under IBC construction rules (one riser+ two continuous min.).
    *THE dwelling unit itself*, even under the IBC, does not require more than one handrail.

    *THE common areas* outside the dwelling units themselves, yes, that would apply, and is what I pointed out to Bruce where he originally asked the question.

    However, back to the "four foot or feet rule" and the OP,
    The original posted did not say that, you added your thinking to what he said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Seems like I remember a requirement for multiple handrails for stairs greater than 4 feet wide.

    I rummaged around IRC chapter 3 and found lots of information about rails or guards but could not find the "4 foot rule".
    and the four foot-steps ... rule
    Your first post in this thread was the first I have ever heard of anything such as a "four foot-steps" rule, i.e., when you posted "four foot/feet/feets".

    Might be something from "up there" in your area, never heard it where I've been.

    Of course, in Georgia, they "mush" the button instead of "push" the button, at least from Georgia Crackers I knew many decades ago, so there is a lot of terminology out there which is unknown to others in other places.

    Just never heard that rule before. Four risers, four steps, yes.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    "in Georgia, they "mush" the button instead of "push" the button"

    Jerry
    Ain't you got no sence? Aryone nos dat " Mush" is soming dey eats up north, ana burton is soming you "Mash".

    Eyes still recollect my O pappy telling me
    " Mash dat dar burton, an tarn on da TV"

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 04-01-2009 at 10:30 AM. Reason: coreted bad spellng
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "in Georgia, they "mush" the button instead of "push" the button"

    Jerry
    Ain't you got no sence? Aryone nos dat " Mush" is soming dey eats up north, ana burton is soming you "Mash".

    Eyes still recollect my O pappy telling me
    " Mash dat dar burton, an tarn on da TV"
    Rick,

    My apologies for you y'all Georgia Crackers, you are absolutely correctly .. it twre "mash" da burton!

    I was only 10 when I first heard that, and after moving (a true Georgia Cracker was our neighbor, taught my dad about swamp cabbage, hush puppies, et al) I did not hear it much, if ever, again ... ah yes ... "mash" it were.

    I also heard it under extreme and dire circumstances: I was driving his son's go kart down the dirt road we lived on and the mail truck turned onto the road and proceeded to deliver the mail. As I approached the mail truck at an alarming and rapid "wide open throttle" speed, I removed my foot from the gas and tried the brake, to no avail. He is yelling 'Mash da burten.' or something like that and I had no idea what he was yelling, so, at full speed ahead I tried turning, only to have the go kart raise dirt from the now turned front wheels as I continued going straight ahead, I ducked down as low as I could and went in under the rear of the mail truck, only to finally have the front tires grab and out between the left side tires I came!

    Back down at his house (next to our house) him, my dad, and everyone was yelling something different (that sure helped) I finally heard someone say "push" and someone said "red", and ... lo and behold there was a "red" button on the steering column - so I pushed it ... turned out to be a "kill switch" ... Hey, I was only 10, I didn't know what "mash" was! Later in life I learned that "mash" was used to make bootleg liquor ... but that is an entirely different kind of "mash".

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    I personally named it the "4 foot rule" in my own venacular to help me remember. The problem seems to be that I taught myself to remember a rule that does not exist! Oh well.

    On another forum a suggestion was offered regarding stairs approximately 78 inches wide or more that might need mulitple railings. A single railing down the middle would suffice and eliminate the need for mulitple railings.

    I have inspected several houses in a neighborhood and had called out railing issues before. The builder called me and we discussed why he felt he did not need a railing based on code. I wanted to find the specific code reference before I called it out in my report so when the builder called, I would be prepared.

    The stairs in question are a single flight from the entrance foyer to the second story. They are 49+ inches wide at the narrowest point. They do have a secure handrail attached with the ends returned to the wall. The opposing side of the stair is a solid wall. IRC apparently does not have a requirement for multiple stair rails.

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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    On another forum a suggestion was offered regarding stairs approximately 78 inches wide or more that might need mulitple railings. A single railing down the middle would suffice and eliminate the need for mulitple railings.
    A single "intermediate" railing in addition to the two required handrails, one on each side, meaning three handrails would be installed, this would be in a non-dwelling unit installation, such as a common area in a condo/apartment building or in an non-residential occupancy building.

    They are 49+ inches wide at the narrowest point.

    Bruce,

    The proper way to measure the width of a stairway is from wall-to-wall, wall-to-railing, or railing-to-railing at handrail height and above. Thus that stairway would be approximately 50"+/- wide.

    Also, a stairway is not allowed to decrease in width in the direction of travel (to the egress), thus the narrowest 49" should be at the top of the stairs which leads down to an egress.

    By the way, looks like a filled nail hole at the 48" mark on your tape, hope that does not work loose and project up above the surface of the tread.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    "The proper way to measure the width of a stairway is from wall-to-wall, wall-to-railing, or railing-to-railing at handrail height and above. Thus that stairway would be approximately 50"+/- wide."

    Yeah, I knew my measurement method was incorrect. I was working on the premise stairs GREATER than 4' needed multiple railings. So I measured the narrowest part of the stairs, the treads, at the narrowest location to show it exceeded my made up 4 ft rule. But since there is no 4 ft rule, my measurement technique is doubly invalid.

    "Also, a stairway is not allowed to decrease in width in the direction of travel (to the egress), thus the narrowest 49" should be at the top of the stairs which leads down to an egress."

    The stairway in question was one size from the top down to the open railings where it increased a couple of inches. The stair system was installed correctly in this instance.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post


    Your first post in this thread was the first I have ever heard of anything such as a "four foot-steps" rule, i.e., when you posted "four foot/feet/feets".

    Might be something from "up there" in your area, never heard it where I've been.

    Of course, in Georgia, they "mush" the button instead of "push" the button, at least from Georgia Crackers I knew many decades ago, so there is a lot of terminology out there which is unknown to others in other places.

    Just never heard that rule before. Four risers, four steps, yes.
    Four risers, three steps (treads), four foot-steps (foot falls) from one elevation to the next mezzanine/platform/landing.

    You've never heard "feets don't fail me now"?

    Mash iz wot yahz gets dah licker frum. . hic


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    P.S. I realize now my link might not be working to well.

    Try this page, Stairway Manufacturer's Association - SMA: Codes and Standards

    and you'll see on the right margin (yellow) links to both the

    IRC 2006 Visual Code Interpretation and the 2003 IRC version.

    Demonstrates the "proper ways" to make all of the various measurements of stairways (including winders).


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Four risers, three steps (treads),

    Four riser, four steps.

    one "step" = one riser and one tread or landing

    Thus:

    1) floor landing and first riser = "one step"

    2) first tread and second riser = "one step"

    3) second tread and third riser = "one step"

    4) third tread and fourth riser = "one step"

    5) top landing is the next higher floor

    There are "four risers" and "four steps".

    Every time you "step up" (or "step down) from one surface (landing or thread) you are making "one step" (up or down), thus each "riser" = one "step".

    From the IBC: "STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers." That becomes a "one step stair" which consists of bottom landing, one riser, top landing, there are no "treads" per se, there are but two "landings".

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    You'll argue about anything including adding in your own words to quoted code and definitions. *sigh*

    Four foot-steps (foot FALLS) to travel FROM ONE elevation TO the next.
    Four risers
    THREE "steps" (treads).

    "STEPS" as in INTERMEDIATE LANDINGS BETWEEN LEVELS.

    STEPS as in a FLIGHT OF STEPS, we are afterall speaking of a stair. Your not flying when your landing. The landing or elevation is not the stair/stairs/flight of steps. You do need a footstep to LAND there but it doesn't make the floor or ground a step as in a step in the flight of stairs. The elevation you begin at is not a stair either - start at zero, count the steps (as in treads, as in flight of stairs) there are THREE. The fourth footstep is your LANDING onto the next elevation or ground, it is OFF the stairs.


    stair
    noun 1.one of a flight or series of steps for going from one level to another, as in a building.2.stairs, such steps collectively, esp. as forming a flight or a series of flights: I was so excited I ran all the way up the stairs. 3.a series or flight of steps; stairway: a winding stair.
    Origin:
    bef. 1000; ME stey(e)r, OE stǣger; c. D, LG steiger landing

    stair (stār) Pronunciation Key
    n.
    1. A series or flight of steps; a staircase. Often used in the plural.
    2. One of a flight of steps.
    [Middle English, from Old English stǣger; see steigh- in Indo-European roots.]

    stairs
    nouna flight of stairs or a flight of steps Dictionary.com: Cite This Source

    Sheesh!

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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You'll argue about anything including adding in your own words to quoted code and definitions. *sigh*

    Four foot-steps (foot FALLS) to travel FROM ONE elevation TO the next.
    Four risers
    THREE "steps" (treads).

    "STEPS" as in INTERMEDIATE LANDINGS BETWEEN LEVELS.

    STEPS as in a FLIGHT OF STEPS, we are afterall speaking of a stair. Your not flying when your landing. The landing or elevation is not the stair/stairs/flight of steps. You do need a footstep to LAND there but it doesn't make the floor or ground a step as in a step in the flight of stairs. The elevation you begin at is not a stair either - start at zero, count the steps (as in treads, as in flight of stairs) there are THREE. The fourth footstep is your LANDING onto the next elevation or ground, it is OFF the stairs.


    stair
    noun 1.one of a flight or series of steps for going from one level to another, as in a building.2.stairs, such steps collectively, esp. as forming a flight or a series of flights: I was so excited I ran all the way up the stairs. 3.a series or flight of steps; stairway: a winding stair.
    Origin:
    bef. 1000; ME stey(e)r, OE stǣger; c. D, LG steiger landing

    stair (stār) Pronunciation Key
    n.
    1. A series or flight of steps; a staircase. Often used in the plural.
    2. One of a flight of steps.
    [Middle English, from Old English stǣger; see steigh- in Indo-European roots.]

    stairs
    nouna flight of stairs or a flight of steps Dictionary.com: Cite This Source

    Sheesh!
    So

    In your diagram I see 4 risers and four steps.

    If you are standing on the top floor you need to step down 4 times or as you say 4 foot falls. Going up the same thing. 4 steps up or four foot falls and there are four risers. Until you stop stepping down or you make you last step up you count the foot falls as you say.

    4 risers, 4 steps


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    However, back to the "four foot or feet rule" and the OP,
    The original posted did not say that, you added your thinking to what he said.
    Why do you argue such things? I'll let a quote of the OP speak for itself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    but could not find the "4 foot rule".

    I suggested the IRC four foot-step (four risers) rule requiring a (as in SINGULAR) continuous handrail.

    four foot/four feet; First you debate it exists, then you debate what I meant when I said "Four risers, three steps (treads), four foot-steps (foot falls) from one elevation to the next mezzanine/platform/landing."

    "Tow-may-toe/tah-ma-tah; Po-tay-toe/Pah-tah-tah; Ee-ther/Aye-ther; Nee-ther/Nigh-ther! Lets call the whole thing off!!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Four risers, three steps (treads), four foot-steps (foot falls) from one elevation to the next mezzanine/platform/landing.

    Four riser, four steps.

    one "step" = one riser and one tread or landing

    Thus:

    1) floor landing and first riser = "one step"

    2) first tread and second riser = "one step"

    3) second tread and third riser = "one step"

    4) third tread and fourth riser = "one step"

    5) top landing is the next higher floor

    There are "four risers" and "four steps".

    Every time you "step up" (or "step down) from one surface (landing or thread) you are making "one step" (up or down), thus each "riser" = one "step".

    From the IBC: "STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers." That becomes a "one step stair" which consists of bottom landing, one riser, top landing, there are no "treads" per se, there are but two "landings".
    Nope, four risers, three steps (treads), and four foot-steps (foot falls). Landings, floors, platforms, ground, etc. are not steps not part of the stair and not treads. Your contortions would require a handrail for a elevated threshold .


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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    The old 1997 Uniform Building Code required handrails on each side of a stair and if more than 88 inches in width it shall be provided with not less than one intermediate handrail for each 88 inches. What's interesting is I've never seen that code complied with at high schools, universities and government buildings?
    I don't believe the IBC ever addressed that issue, but I'll defer to EC Jerry.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    So

    In your diagram I see 4 risers and four steps.

    If you are standing on the top floor you need to step down 4 times or as you say 4 foot falls. Going up the same thing. 4 steps up or four foot falls and there are four risers. Until you stop stepping down or you make you last step up you count the foot falls as you say.

    4 risers, 4 steps
    You SEE four steps (funny I drew three!)? A "step" in a stair is a tread. The "up" (or down) direction is accomplished by the riser.

    Noun: step. plural noun: steps.

    Verb is action word. as in TO step, I step, you step, he/she steps, we step, they step, in this case denoting MOVEMENT. The stair does not move.

    There are four risers in that diagram, there are three steps (treads), grass/ground is the lower elevation and a platform/floor elevation. The stair is the transition between the two elevations. As in the DEFINITION of STAIR.

    You are confusing a noun with a verb. Can't see any action in my diagram.

    Want to really blow a gasket? ask yourself what this means:

    "Landings for Stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs."

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-02-2009 at 05:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    I think that code section is abundantly clear. What is your problem in understanding it, and I'm not being snot, but truly interested?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Its the impostion of others on what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair

    versus a stairway.

    JP and TM are imposing stairway inclusions upon a stair and hung up on what a step (tread) is versus a foot-step.

    I understand it completely . I was directing that to Ted Menelly .


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    WC Jerry,

    Watson always has his shorts all hitched up, keeps in a continuous wedgie I suppose.

    Hey, Watson, NOT MY definition of "STAIR" I posted - it came from just where I said it did - the IBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Its the impostion of others on what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair

    versus a stairway.
    Seems as you, Watson, have an inability to read, among your other foibles, so I will repeat it again for you: (bold red text is mine to make sure that you understand, if at all possible, that *STAIR* is the IBC word the IBC is defining)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the IBC: "STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers."
    So, are you YET AGAIN going to do your little dance where you misdirect, obfuscate, duck and run, and try to twist what you said into something you did not say ... AGAIN?

    Here are some of you whimsical OPINIONS stated as though they actually came from someplace they did not:
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    IRC (2003+): Four or more foot-steps continuous handrail required,
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    However, back to the "four foot or feet rule" and the OP, you might have recalled something from a class about a singular continuous handrail and the four foot-steps (four risers) rule
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Four risers, three steps (treads), four foot-steps (foot falls) from one elevation to the next mezzanine/platform/landing.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Four foot-steps (foot FALLS) to travel FROM ONE elevation TO the next.
    Four risers
    THREE "steps" (treads).

    "STEPS" as in INTERMEDIATE LANDINGS BETWEEN LEVELS.

    STEPS as in a FLIGHT OF STEPS, we are afterall speaking of a stair. Your not flying when your landing. The landing or elevation is not the stair/stairs/flight of steps. You do need a footstep to LAND there but it doesn't make the floor or ground a step as in a step in the flight of stairs. The elevation you begin at is not a stair either - start at zero, count the steps (as in treads, as in flight of stairs) there are THREE. The fourth footstep is your LANDING onto the next elevation or ground, it is OFF the stairs.


    stair
    noun 1.one of a flight or series of steps for going from one level to another, as in a building.2.stairs, such steps collectively, esp. as forming a flight or a series of flights: I was so excited I ran all the way up the stairs. 3.a series or flight of steps; stairway: a winding stair.
    Origin:
    bef. 1000; ME stey(e)r, OE stǣger; c. D, LG steiger landing

    stair (stâr) Pronunciation Key
    n.
    1. A series or flight of steps; a staircase. Often used in the plural.
    2. One of a flight of steps.
    [Middle English, from Old English stǣger; see steigh- in Indo-European roots.]

    stairs
    nouna flight of stairs or a flight of steps Dictionary.com: Cite This Source

    Sheesh!
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I suggested the IRC four foot-step (four risers) rule requiring a (as in SINGULAR) continuous handrail.

    four foot/four feet; First you debate it exists, then you debate what I meant when I said "Four risers, three steps (treads), four foot-steps (foot falls) from one elevation to the next mezzanine/platform/landing."

    "Tow-may-toe/tah-ma-tah; Po-tay-toe/Pah-tah-tah; Ee-ther/Aye-ther; Nee-ther/Nigh-ther! Lets call the whole thing off!!"

    Nope, four risers, three steps (treads), and four foot-steps (foot falls). Landings, floors, platforms, ground, etc. are not steps not part of the stair and not treads. Your contortions would require a handrail for a elevated threshold .
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You SEE four steps (funny I drew three!)? A "step" in a stair is a tread. The "up" (or down) direction is accomplished by the riser.

    Noun: step. plural noun: steps.

    Verb is action word. as in TO step, I step, you step, he/she steps, we step, they step, in this case denoting MOVEMENT. The stair does not move.

    There are four risers in that diagram, there are three steps (treads), grass/ground is the lower elevation and a platform/floor elevation. The stair is the transition between the two elevations. As in the DEFINITION of STAIR.

    You are confusing a noun with a verb. Can't see any action in my diagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Its the impostion of others on what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair

    versus a stairway.

    JP and TM are imposing stairway inclusions upon a stair and hung up on what a step (tread) is versus a foot-step.

    I understand it completely . I was directing that to Ted Menelly .
    Watson, after all of your above baloney, chest puffing righteousness, Watson knows and everyone else is wrong, did you read how the IBC defines "STAIR"?

    I'll finish off with the IBC definition again.

    From the 2006 IBC: (yet again) (bold red text is mine)
    - STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers.

    NOT "tread" ... "RISERS".

    Jeez, Watson, you really have no concept of what you look like to the rest of us when you insist on it being 'Watson's Way even when Watson is Wrong', and then refusing to acknowledge those so obvious and so specifically explained reasons why you are wrong. Couple that with you going back and changing your posts later to make it look like you were not wrong, ... you just have no shame, do you?

    (sigh)

    (at least I've got the quotes above for evidence after he goes back and changes his posts to try to reflect something different)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    EC Jerry, If I may: you're wasting your time with such nonsense. Watson sounds like the classic jerk-off who's in love with the sound of his own voice and spends his days twisting all confirmed facts and basic logic to justify his opinions, which are usually wrong-footed in the main. The world needs people like him so we have something to laugh at when times are tough.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    EC Jerry, If I may: you're wasting your time with such nonsense.

    WC Jerry,

    The problem is, Watson tried to control this board to his way of doing things since he came on board, and you know me, Brian has a successful board has it has been operating, so I had to counteract the boorish acts of the Viking trying to take over England and the Colonies.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Seems like I remember a requirement for multiple handrails for stairs greater than 4 feet wide.

    I rummaged around IRC chapter 3 and found lots of information about rails or guards but could not find the "4 foot rule".

    Am I dreaming or did I just make up the rule because it sounded neat?

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Bruce Ramsey,

    I think you might be remembering a requirement for continuous handrail on at least one side when there are four or more riserson a continuous run of treads or flight (IRC 2003 R311.5.6; IRC 2001 required with two or more risers). Note: IBC requires 2 handrails some "residences" IBC applies not IRC.

    Four risers = four climbing or decending foot steps up or down from one elevation to the next.....four foot/feet/feets (as in "feets don't fail me now!")?

    IRC (2003+): Four or more foot-steps continuous handrail required, could that be your "four foot (step) rule"?
    Selective quoting aside, I quoted correctly from the code (RISERS) then explained what it meant and suggested a possible connection to the OP's mysterious remembered "four foot rule" and the subject of required continuous handrail (not foot or feet pertaining to distance - but foot or feet as in foot steps or movement path while one navigated the stairs and specified it had to do with four risers).

    Despite JERRY PECK's insistance that I created the phrase four foot rule or injected it into the string, Sprinkled with digs, ad hominem, and pecking any issue to death, I did not. The original post contained the phrase.

    The original poster even came back and said it came from him on a subsequent post. Thank you Mr. Ramsey, but as usual returns from an OP are oft ignored when the PECK frenzy is whipped up on a string.

    Ignored, PECK continues pecking, pecking, striving to provoke a frenzy, including twisting the words of others, sprinkled incomplete post quotes with just a bit more manure and a further twisted editing of selective partial post quotes, more twisted logic, and more digs.

    Driven like a bored chicken looking to establish/assert a PECKING ORDER, hoping to draw blood from the target so as to stir up the rest of the chicken yard into a blood-frenzied swarm pecking gang and drive off a member/perceived threat.

    Unlike some I actually read all of the contributions of a post string that I participate in. I notice things like his quotation marks on some of JERRY PECK's posts where he is self quoting or supposedly quoting another and it is not a quote, it is an altered phrase or one that he has invented, that does not come from the code or other I-codes or the dictionary, or the actual authored post of another, or other legitimate source, its not a quote at all, its an invention.

    Quoting IBC Stair definition but going on to impose the definition of a STAIRWAY (not the same thing) in JP's 'justification' diatribe which followed included dozens of "self quotations" was not correct. JP's justification/defense was explaining a STAIRWAY, not a STAIR. To one not clear on the distinction/difference it is a significant one, hence the two distinctively and significantly different definitions in the IBC.

    This is why they stopped referring to steps in the older model (source) codes and in the HUD/VA inspection and appraisal, etc. - just that type of twisted crud that JP and TM threw in confusing the noun with the verb (step/s) the distinction between stair and stairway is current, been around for a few cycles and a "codeman" should know better.

    Funny there was NOTHING unclear about my posts, I made the distinction each and every time. I referenced the correct section, indicated if IRC section applied cited it, indicated a second handrail was not required, and suggested a possible origin of the "four foot rule" phrase and relationship to A continuous handrail requirement (one from NC would know if when they adopted the 2009 NC codes they reverted back to language from a prior ICC edition with their ammendments (they back-peddled on quite a few sections) and not being in NC I haven't kept up on what they did for this years.

    Seeing and reading that there was confusion on how measurements were made to apply said code I proffered materials from the SMA (free to download and view) and when I realized the older saved direct link might not work quickly/efficiently for everyone, I posted a better direct link to a page with instructions to view/download including the more recent edition. Frankly reading others bashing or directing the only "proper" way to measure as though it was definitive, finite and absolute I let slide, and simply posted the link (and later posted a better general gateway link with instructions).

    Now a second Jerry "Jerry McCarthy" starts up with a "not being snot" question and returns with a personal attack. Right, not snot, right.

    There are some who live to fight, some who live to peck, and some who have no life except to do either or both. I am not one of them.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There are some who live to fight,...
    Your posting the above post contradicts what you say at the end of your rant, the only purpose of your post was to continuing fighting, i.e., making a fool of yourself.

    Your above post does the same thing your other posts do when you are PROVEN WRONG ... instead of admitting you are wrong, you try to misdirect, side step, and obfuscate the issue.

    THE ISSUE, Watson, is that you (how many times did you insist on it ... ? ... simply count the number of times in my last post with your quotes above) ... IS THAT YOU *INSISTED* that a "STAIR" (yep, that is the word YOU used) *IS* a "TREAD" (again, yep, that is the word YOU used) ... you said "what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair" and i continued to point out to you, to no avail, that THE CODE DEFINES A "STAIR" as a "RISER".

    Yet, here you are ONCE AGAIN trying your misdirection move, a move which has not worked in the past and does not work now, nor will it work in the future.

    and some who have no life except to do either or both. I am not one of them.
    Watson, you are the epitome of BOTH, meaning "an ideal example" (as there are a couple of meanings of that).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the IBC: "STAIR. A change in elevation, consisting of one or more risers." That becomes a "one step stair" which consists of bottom landing, one riser, top landing, there are no "treads" per se, there are but two "landings".
    Nope. A STAIR does not necessarily contain/include a bottom landing or a top landing.
    A IBC one-riser stair does not necessarily have any "steps" (as in the NOUN) per se, and a "STAIR" does not necessarily have two "landings".

    Now a STAIRWAY on the otherhand DOES (IBC Definition).

    In the unammended IBC (and the unammended IRC which defers to definitions in the other I-codes): Stair and Stairway are NOT the same thing. The former is part of the later


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Watson,

    I was thinking of what your actions look like and here is the best description I have come up with:

    WWE match between Rufus and Dufus, Dufus hits Rufus with a low blow causing Rufus to roll to the canvas in apparent agony, Dufus, just like in all the practice sessions and just like he is told, climbs the ropes in the corner and stands on the top rope, waving his clasped hands above his head in his apparent victory ... yet Dufus knows, with out a doubt, that, just like in practice, Rufus will miraculously recover at the last possible second and roll to one side, allowing Dufus to splat head first into the canvas ... Dufus knows that will happen, without a doubt, no question, it is like knowing that nighttime follows daytime ... yet, there he is, thumping his chest as instructed, all the while allowing that Charlie Brown glimmer of hope that Lucy 'finally ... finally, just this once, will not pull the ball away' ... so Dufus jumps and ...

    ... Rufus miraculously recovers and rolls to one side yet again, allowing Dufus to once again splat head first into the canvas ...

    Watson, do you just not get it? You are the trained seal catching and throwing the red ball back and forth to your trainer, you are the monkey doing tricks while the organ grinder grinds away, you are the ... (sigh) ... Dufus ... er ... Watson just does not "get it".



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  37. #37
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Back to the ad hominem again.

    Proper? Its the code, man!

    Can't see forest for the trees? Started this "attack" and "argument" and he can't see where he stuck proverbial foot in mouth (x4).

    CHICKEN YARD.....Bored and threatened Chicken ..... resorts to pecking order activity.....PECK PECK PECK.

    Expect a multitude of off-topic and ad hominem rants so as to bury it in manure, AS USUAL.


  38. #38
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    THE ISSUE, Watson, is that you (how many times did you insist on it ... ? ... simply count the number of times in my last post with your quotes above) ... IS THAT YOU *INSISTED* that a "STAIR" (yep, that is the word YOU used) *IS* a "TREAD" (again, yep, that is the word YOU used) ... you said "what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair" and i continued to point out to you, to no avail, that THE CODE DEFINES A "STAIR" as a "RISER".

    .
    No where, not one place did I ever say a STAIR IS A TREAD.

    That is your problem, you cannot read what is written you are too busy putting your spin on things.


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    The crowd is ready, jump anytime you are.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  40. #40
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    .
    The crowd is ready, .
    .
    ....
    .

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Jerry Peck, guilty of creative editing again.

    There is a complete sentance in the below, I have bolded and colored it red so it can be found, it reads:

    A "step" in a stair is a tread.
    A step (subject)
    in a stair (prepositional phrase)
    is (verb)
    a tread.

    Any idiot knows that I was saying a "step" is a TREAD and qualifying that said "step" IN A STAIR is a tread.

    Deleting part of a sentance and fliping words, removing a preposition, is not a quote, distorts, twists the meaning and it is a blatant LIE for Jerry Peck to state as he did a post or two above that I ever said "A STAIR *IS* a tread". STAIR was NEVER the subject of that sentance!

    Not true. I actually said "A STEP IN A STAIR IS A TREAD." A complete sentance. When you divide a prepositional phrase and drop the begining of the sentance which includes the SUBJECT you have twisted and contorted and made something which wasn't. STAIR was NOT the subject of the sentance it was a part of a prepositional phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You SEE four steps (funny I drew three!)? A "step" in a stair is a tread. The "up" (or down) direction is accomplished by the riser.

    Noun: step. plural noun: steps.

    Verb is action word. as in TO step, I step, you step, he/she steps, we step, they step, in this case denoting MOVEMENT. The stair does not move.

    There are four risers in that diagram, there are three steps (treads), grass/ground is the lower elevation and a platform/floor elevation. The stair is the transition between the two elevations. As in the DEFINITION of STAIR.

    You are confusing a noun with a verb. Can't see any action in my diagram.

    Want to really blow a gasket? ask yourself what this means:

    "Landings for Stairways. There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway. Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs."
    SO NOW YOU'VE BEEN OUTTED COMPLETELY JERRY PECK.

    YOU'RE GUILTY OF SELECTIVE EDITING SELECTIVE QUOTING AND TWISTING OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, OF THE WRITTEN WORD IS EXPOSED.

    YOU ARE A SLANDERER AND A LIAR.


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Your posting the above post contradicts what you say at the end of your rant, the only purpose of your post was to continuing fighting, i.e., making a fool of yourself.

    Your above post does the same thing your other posts do when you are PROVEN WRONG ... instead of admitting you are wrong, you try to misdirect, side step, and obfuscate the issue.

    THE ISSUE, Watson, is that you (how many times did you insist on it ... ? ... simply count the number of times in my last post with your quotes above) ... IS THAT YOU *INSISTED* that a "STAIR" (yep, that is the word YOU used) *IS* a "TREAD" (again, yep, that is the word YOU used) ... you said "what constitutes a step (tread) in a stair" and i continued to point out to you, to no avail, that THE CODE DEFINES A "STAIR" as a "RISER".

    Yet, here you are ONCE AGAIN trying your misdirection move, a move which has not worked in the past and does not work now, nor will it work in the future.



    Watson, you are the epitome of BOTH, meaning "an ideal example" (as there are a couple of meanings of that).
    You're a liar, I never said that, I said

    A STEP in a stair is a TREAD.

    Post #27 in this string.

    I didn't need YOU to point out a dang thing about what the code defines a stair as.

    I SPELLED THAT OUT IN THE FIRST POST I MADE IN THIS STRING (post #6). I cited the code IRC way back and stated it was a four riser rule. I explained where the "step" language of the OLDER MODEL CODES was still incorporated and in use and that the RULES (older IRC was 2-riser), Other model codes used step/steps references and up until this decade FHA appraisal materials still referred to STEPS and not risers in the stair/s which required a continuous handrail (FHA its 3-riser).

    When I first posted and cited the code section that required A continuous handrail IRC when four or more risers in a stair, your first response was to claim that code section "rule" didn't exist(post #7).

    So enough with your babble, your lies, your twisting, mis-quoting, selective editing, manure, and further justifications.

    You are a prevaricator, you are disingenuous, your motives and true character are HEREIN EXPOSED.

    Furthermore I insisted nothiing until you "INSISTED" that had insisted anything. Your claim (false) that I said something that I did NOT say (selective editing of a short sentance) was a LIE. NOW I AM INSISTING SOMETHING, that YOU are a small excuse for a man who has a PERVERTED CONCEPTION THAT INVOLVES DISTORTION OF REALITY.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    As expected, but as always with the greatest anticipation and suspense ... Dufus jumped ...

    ... and Rufus miraculously recovered at the last second and leaned to one side, resulting in the always expected, but always leaving that one Charlie Brown chance of it not happening ... the head first splat onto the canvas of Dufus.

    The crowd knows better than to think the ending would be otherwise, but, ... there is always that one sliver of hope that keeps all dreams alive, ... and is what gives each repeat performance the same anticipation factor.

    The crowd is now on their feet once again to see if Dufus can recover and stand ... waiting with the ever present anticipation ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    JERRY PECK in your warped distored diatribes you have confused a STAIR with a STAIRWAY.

    YOUR INSISTANCE that a STAIR includes the elevations being transitioned to is INCORECT.

    As usual you miss the forest for the trees.

    LOOK UP STAIRWAY then look again at your "STAIR" posts.


    Then EAT CROW.


    Fodder for voir dire. The internet has an elephant-like memory.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: Multiple Handrails for stairs >4 ft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The crowd is now on their feet once again to see if Dufus can recover and stand ... waiting with the ever present anticipation ...
    With waning interest, the crowd begins to leave as the referee looks on waiting on Dufus to get up, but alas ... wait, there is movement, he is stirring, he is again on his feet and walking toward the railing as though he will never learn ... doomed to repeat the act for eternity ... or until all interest wanes, the lights have gone out, and the janitor leaves a fresh pail and mop and says 'Next time, mop it up yourself, I'm leaving.'



    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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