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  1. #1
    John Jeffries's Avatar
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    Default Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Help me out with your persepctive, guys. We've had a transient condition in the house with a sulfur smell. We haven't been able to trace it down . . . and no, it's not the dog.

    While checking out some other issues with our drywall, we noticed that the drywall doesn't have any printing on the back. While reading about the Chinese drywall problem, we read that some of the bad drywall doesn't have a name on it.

    We also read that the Chinese drywall problem was first identified in Florida due to the damp air that accelerated the problems. However, the Chinese drywall problem has been expanded to include lots of other areas including the Southwestern states. We're in the Southwest with a house built in the years when Chinese drywall was used.

    We've read that the consequences haven't been as acute in the Southwest because much of the region is dry. The compounds take longer to leach from the drywall in dry environments and cause the associated problems in the house.

    Pending an official evaluation, I was wondering what everyone thought about an unofficial experiement to help give us an idea if our drywall is the defective product from China.

    Remembering that we're in a dry area where the product doesn't as readily outgass the sulfur, here's what we thought about doing. We'd place a piece of drywall in a small tupperware container without a lid. The container would then be placed within a larger one without a lid that containes a small amount of water in the bottom. Then both containers would be slipped inside of an airtight bag and placed in a sunny window.

    The intent would be to keep the drywall, dry, but allow the water to evaporate within the bag. It would create a humid environment of the kind that accelerates the distinctive sulfur smell described in Chinese drywall infected houses. We would then see if the smell is apparent before we go ahead with further testing.

    What does everyone think about our unofficial test? Do you think it would work?

    Thanks for your insight.

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  2. #2
    Daniel Leung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    I think you need a quick inspection, not an experiment. The best experiment is the full scale condition in your home. Combined with many inspectors' suggestion, here is a toxic drywall inspection do-it-yourself:
    * Was your home built after 2000?
    * Have a strong sulfur smell (like a rotten-egg smell)?
    * Have breathing irritation or headaches while at home?
    * Have corroded copper coils in air-conditioner or discolored copper waterpipe (or copper electrical wires in receptacle)?
    * Have "KNAUF" in black ink, or "CHINA" in red ink, or "ASTM36C" stamp on the back or edge tape of your drywall? (if no visible drywall back in house, look inside the attic to see the back of ceiling)

    If none of above, sleep well!

    For more information, please read www.ChineseDrywall.com
    Florida Dept of Health - Hazard Assessment of Copper Corrosion and Air-Conditioner Evaporator Coil Failures Possibly Associated with Imported Drywall / Premature Copper Corrosion in Residences Possibly Associated with the Presence of Imported Drywall from China

    Last edited by Daniel Leung; 10-27-2009 at 09:15 AM. Reason: updated the affected year from 2000

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Wondering if you took a drywall sample and crushed it up and mixed in a bit of warm water if you would notice a more prevalent odor. It would be an easy experiment if you got a hold of some Chinese drywall... just compare it to an American made sample.


  4. #4
    John Jeffries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Daniel,

    Thanks for the links and info.

    Matt,

    Good idea. I'm trying the system I described right now. I thought I'd leave it for a week and see what happens.

    The problem for me is getting the "control" sample of the known chinese stuff. I don't have any as a "known" quantity, so I'll just have to see if I get any stink from the stuff in the house and then go from there. If I don't get any smell, then maybe things will be okay.

    Last edited by John Jeffries; 04-08-2009 at 07:59 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Leung View Post
    * Was your home built between 2004 and 2006?
    I believe the dates have now been stretched out to around 2000 (when the first shipments may have arrived) to 2009 (as some of that stuff is still in warehouses, and you know how much business people hate to throw things away).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    John,

    I am curious if you had a third party home inspection for your behalf on the new home you bought and have the web site about?

    If not, why?

    Rick


  7. #7
    Daniel Leung's Avatar
    Daniel Leung Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I believe the dates have now been stretched out to around 2000 (when the first shipments may have arrived) to 2009 (as some of that stuff is still in warehouses, and you know how much business people hate to throw things away).
    Jerry, thank you for the suggestion. I will update my blog.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Good morning, John

    I think Daniel Leung’s thought process was the most practical approach, and one that was the most defensible.

    As a scientist, I would say there is nothing intrinsically “wrong” with your “experiment.” The validity of the “experiment” would be incumbent on how you described your “experiment.”

    If you made the statement up front that the “experiment” was for fun only and the results could not be used with confidence, then you are at liberty to do whatever you want, no matter how invalid.

    However, if you wanted to use the data from your “experiment” to make a statement that will stand up in court, or stand up to any kind of challenge at all, then you will not succeed in your endeavors.

    Experiments are exclusively an hypothesis testing process by which a question is answered in a controlled fashion, with known limits of confidence, characterized error, precision, and accuracy. Each of these parameters must be established before the experiment takes place.

    So in this case, we look at your presumed question, and ask does the proposed work answer the question. From your post, we see that your question becomes:

    Do I have Chinese Drywall in my subject house?

    This is a question about point of origin, and nothing in the proposed experiment addresses the point of origin of the products tested. So, then the alternate question posed by your post becomes: “Is the drywall causing the objectionable odor in the house?

    Then we look at the proposed experiment, and we see that nothing in the experiment addresses that question either.

    So let’s turn it around and based on the proposed experiment, let’s ask what question does the experiment answer? The experiment exclusively answers the following question: “Can one detect a sulphur odor from a specific piece of drywall, that is placed into three plastic containers, one of which holds water, and which is then set in the sun?

    That question does not address the fundamental problem in the house. Since regardless of the results of the test, you still don’t know anything about the objectionable odor in the house.

    For your “experiment” to be valid you need to make sure it specifically address this question: “What is causing the sulphur odor in the subject property?” Then establish an hypothesis involving the drywall, being careful that it does not seek to prove a negative: “We hypothesize that the drywall in the house has the potential to contribute to the odor of sulphur in the house.

    To answer the question, we begin by establishing Data Quality Objectives (DQOs). DQOs are ALWAYS established before performing environmental sampling such as this. Here is how the US EPA describes DQOs in the SW846 methodology:

    Data quality objectives (DQOs) for the data collection activity describe the overall level of uncertainty that a decision-maker is willing to accept in results derived from environmental data. This uncertainty is used to specify the quality of the measurement data required, usually in terms of objectives for precision, bias, representativeness, comparability and completeness. The DQOs should be defined prior to the initiation of the field and laboratory work. The field and laboratory organizations performing the work should be aware of the DQOs so that their personnel may make informed decisions during the course of the project to attain those DQOs. More detailed information on DQOs is available from the U.S. EPA Quality Assurance Management Staff (QAMS).

    OK so we need to establish our “P.A.R.C.C.” parameters, and these in turn would be the questions one would face in interrogatories upon challenge.

    Precision:
    How reproducible are measurements? 1) How many pieces of dry wall from the entire house will need to be collected to ensure that a representative sample of each of the possible types of drywall used in construction have been included in the house? How do you know that answer is correct? 2) How many pieces of the SAME piece of drywall need to be included in the process to determine the precision of our test? How do you know that answer is correct? What is the sampling error associated with the test? (My guess is that you are going to have to sample about 20 pieces of drywall, and your replication set will be no fewer than ten samples from the same drywall).

    Accuracy:
    How close is the observation to the true evolution of sulphur? How do we know? Since the test is subjective, and H2S is known to quickly degrade the phasic olfactory receptors, rendering the receptors incapable of detecting H2S, how have we ensured that our ability to assess both character and intensity of the odor does not change from sample to sample? How have we guarded against false positives?

    Relevancy:
    Do the data speak to the a priori question being asked? Yes – if we can detect the odor (within the limitations set forth above). Does the test determine if the drywall is responsible for the odor? – No. Does the test determine if the drywall is a contributing factor? – No. The test only determines if, under specified conditions the drywall gives off an odor.

    Comparability (Points of reference):
    Can decisions be based by comparing the results against nationally accepted guidelines or at least arbitrary guidelines that we established before we sampled? No. Therefore to meet this qualification, we are going to have to prepare both positive controls (as mentioned in your post) and negative controls. We are going to have to perform essentially the same thing in a few homes known to have a problem due to stinky drywall, and in a few homes known to not have a problem with stinky drywall. The controls will need to be performed under the same DQOs and procedures.

    In all, we will have about 120 samples. We then need to see if there is a correlation between odor due to our test and odor in the house – if there isn’t we need to stop, since the rest of the process now lack validity.

    Completeness:
    Have the DQOs been met? Have we characterized sampling error? Have we characterized analytical errors? Have we confidently established comparison criteria?

    One of the reasons the NAS, in a recent report (2009 - Strengthening Forensic Science in the United States: A Path Forward) was so critical of forensic experts in the US was that so many of those who are claiming to be “experts” in scientific fields, entirely lack even the most rudimentary understanding of science. We have particularly seen a lack of science in EMFs, global warming, “toxic moulds,” and radon. Wherein tautology and misinformation under the guise of “human compassion” has trumped sound science, and resulted in a plethora of bogus information parading as fact.

    Of course, that's just me. But I would be particularly interested in hearing from Jerry Peck and Son-of Swamp on my comments ... well and of course Rick Hurst, but just cuz I love his sense of humor, and sometimes wish I could see the world like him ... If so, I may have been able to retain my hair.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG

    Last edited by Caoimhín P. Connell; 04-09-2009 at 08:41 AM. Reason: Italics problems

  9. #9
    John Jeffries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    John,

    I am curious if you had a third party home inspection for your behalf on the new home you bought and have the web site about?
    Hi Rick,

    Yes, we had two seperate HI's inspect the house before we bought it. We paid for both. We wanted to be extra careful because we wanted it to be our last house. We needed people to look at it for us since our construction experience was zero. We didn't know what to look for or look at.

    Another thing that caught our eye and confirmed our need to hire a second HI, was the behavior of the first HI. He was really friendly with the builder rep. To us he seemed overly friendly, like they were golfing buddies or he had some relationship with the builder. It made us question his loyalties, so we paid him and hired a second guy.

    Then we had one radon inspection in addition to the two home inspections. That covers it.

    I can't and won't blame the HI's for not catching much of the serious defects. There are a lot that are hidden. However, there are some significant problems that should have been caught but were missed by both.

    I can think of our roof tile problem as one. Some aren't nailed down while others aren't nailed in complaince with the installation instructions. Another is the lack of 1/8" expansion seperation throughout the entire roof sheathing. It's visible when they're in the attic space.

    I also can't blame them for not commenting on the cut/modified engineered joist. They didn't have the building plans and for all they knew it could have received approval from a structural engineer (it wasn't reviewed or approved).

    However, the extra small workplace in front of the HVAC equipment in the attic, placed in the modified truss area, and the ceiling entrance so small that it will require modification of permanent construction to access the equipment are a couple things that were missed.

    They also missed the missing ceiling insulation in approx 25% of the attic. It is an engineered attic space, so it's tight to get around, but each of the HI's told us that they had gone through the entire area. If they had, they would not have missed the missing insulation. It amounted to about 700 sq feet of space over two bedrooms.

    Severly split engineered joists were also missed. There are some so over-nailed and split down the length that the structural support is compormised.

    So, yes, we had the home inspected. Each of the HI's were affiliated with their professional trade association, so we felt acted appropriately for a homebuyer unschooled in the building industry.

    We have come to new conclusions because of this experience. Although we will get a HI if we ever inspect another house, we'll require that he be from out-of-town and we'll require a statement from him that he has no current or past professional or personal relationship with the builder, any of their employees or the seller of the house.

    We'll then follow-up with a structural engineer, roofer, electrician and a plumber at the minimum for additional inspections. We'll rely on the HI report for the small stuff or direction on other things to look for, but we'll depend on tradesmen for the in-depth evaluation.

    As we've been forced into a learning experience, we will also forego any of the new building materials. It will probably necessitate the purchase of an older home, or require us to contract our own house, but we're not going to stand for any more engineered products. OSB and things like engineered joists will never again be used in anything we buy, that is if we're ever able to get out of the quagmire our builder has caused for us.

    It all comes down to "once burned, twice shy" and subsequently being forced to learn about building materials, components and the industry in general. Needless to say we were surprised to find the lack of ethics and minimal care across the industry and the poor state of consumer protection throught this nation, with some states being really bad.

    I hope that provides some insght, Rick. I really shouldn't pull out my soapbox like that, but I just got in the mood. I promise I'll put it away now.

    Last edited by John Jeffries; 05-03-2009 at 11:50 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    John,

    Not wanting to get into who did what and what should have been reported, but ...

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jeffries View Post
    I can think of the roof tile problem as one. It's shown on our roofing page. Another is the lack of 1/8" expansion seperation throughout the entire roof sheathing. It's visible when they're in the attic space.
    That 1/8" space is an INSTALLATION space, it is designed and likely intended to close up as it is for expansion of the roof sheathing. Thus, when the roof sheathing expands ... as it was expected to do ... there will be no 1/8" gap.

    Remember also that a 1/8" gap on each side only means that the 48" x 96" pieces of wood (that is what plywood and OSB are made of) only need expand 1/32" all the way around to close that gap up ... 1/32" all the way around isn't much at all, and it isn't going to expand much at all, and those two "much at all" are designed such that one compensates for the other, meaning you should not expect to be able to measure that 1/8" gap.

    That expansion could be thermal or from humidity.

    Not having reviewed or read your entire post, but scanned it and that stood out, I will not comment on any of the other items (I have not checked your web site out yet either, other than a cursory quite look-see at the first page).

    Even on this board we have had the discussion regarding 'spacing of no spacing - what should we see and write up' and the answer is: If you are there watching them install it and there is no spacing, write it up, but after it has been installed, who knows what spacing was, or was not, used during installation - there is no way to know.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 04-09-2009 at 07:09 AM. Reason: speelin'
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    That sulphur smell may be from you thinking too hard about who to sue next
    Good one. Very good one.


  12. #12
    John Jeffries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Holy cow Caoimhín, Thanks for the insightful and time consuming reply. I appreciate your hard work!

    BTW, my little experiment is for my peace of mind and not for court puposes. As it stands, I checked it today and there's no odd smell present.

    That's a good thing for me.

    Thanks again for your thoughtful and constructive reply.

    That goes for you too Jerry. I appreciate your insight, too.

    . . . and fritzkelly, I guess it's just good natured ribbing. One thing I can't stand are lawyers, but I can't stand fraud and deceat even more. I spent too many years holding people accountable for their actions to quit now.

    Sometimes you're forced into a partnership with someone you don't like so a greater evil doesn't get away with their despicable acts. That's the way I view it.



    Last edited by John Jeffries; 04-09-2009 at 12:50 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Jerry,
    Even with expansion of the sheathing, if clips are visible then you could be able to "assume" that the spacing was there in the beginning. Unless they banged the clips with a hammer to imbedd them in the sheathing.

    Caveat- I have not looked at his site to see pictures.

    Jeff Moore AZ Cert#49250
    Level II Thermographer
    http:www.quantumhomeinspections.com

  14. #14
    John Jeffries's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    There are no clips between the sheets of sheathing. None are visible anywhere.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    The typical method of spacing I see is placing two nails between the sheathing panels as spacers, then removing the nails. Clips are not required, and really do not do much good either.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    I think the more important question is: Is there a problem that has resulted from the possible improper spacing?
    Fritz,

    That is only one part of the question, the second part of the same question is: And if there is a problem, do we KNOW it was installed without proper spacing?

    THAT is going to be a VERY DIFFICULT question to answer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    I guess my point is (and your's also I think), is this something the home inspector "missed" or is it a non-issue?

    Fritz,

    It is definitely not something the home inspector "missed" as there is no way to know if it was done with spacing or not (unless clips were installed and then the obvious answer is that the clips created a spacing).

    As to whether or not it is a "non-issue" would depend on if there was any bulging joints showing through the roof covering, and those joints would not be the long joints between the rafters/trusses which are still visible, those would be the end joints on each rafter/truss, which no one except the framer and subsequent code inspector would have been able to have seen - *IF* the code inspector even looked.

    I say *IF* the code inspector even looked because when in South Florida and in Central Florida we (as code inspectors) ALWAYS did a roof sheathing nailing inspection, while when I was in the Florida Panhandle the code inspectors NEVER did a roof sheathing or nailing inspection - the reason I was given NOT TO INSPECT the roof sheathing was "We recognize that the roof sheathing sheathing should be covered and protected *as soon as possible*, so we tell the builders to have their roofer cover the sheathing with felt as soon as the sheathing is installed."

    Bull crap, the roof sheathing does not need to be covered THAT quickly, it is made so it can be exposed *up to* 6 months, meaning even one month is not going to be a problem, much less 2-3 days between sheathing, inspection, then covering up - *IN MY OPINION* they just *did not want to* inspect the roof sheathing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
    Philippe Heller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    My wife had me install some Roman blinds yesterday. They are made of wood strips, and were of course made in China.

    We immediately smelled sulfur after isntalling them. Could it be some other new item in the house that could be off-gassing?

    It is my understanding that the Chinese drywall was confined mostly to the Southeast US (Georgia, Florida). Has any turned up in Nevada?

    Philippe Heller
    The San Diego Real Estate Inspection Co.
    Home Inspector San Diego - The San Diego Real Estate Inspection Company


  19. #19
    Damon Sagehorn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Hello John J,

    Are you trying to find out the cause of the smell or are U figuring out drywall? The smell likely comes from your water.

    Damon


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    I thought clips where mandatory with 24" spacing. I have seen where they where forgotten (yeah right) and the ahj made them put blocking at all joints. If the clips fit tight to the plywood like they suppose too they also help keep the plywood from deflecting/offset.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  21. #21
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    I thought clips where mandatory with 24" spacing. I have seen where they where forgotten (yeah right) and the ahj made them put blocking at all joints. If the clips fit tight to the plywood like they suppose too they also help keep the plywood from deflecting/offset.
    Yes they are needed or When you walk the roof and step on that joint and not straddle it you damage the shingles along with mnay reasons. Clips or solid nailing or 16 on center rafters or tongue and groove for the roof which is never used and or and or and or.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Thanks Ted,

    Reason for my comment was because of this post

    The typical method of spacing I see is placing two nails between the sheathing panels as spacers, then removing the nails. Clips are not required, and really do not do much good either.
    I know they use nail spacing when 16" on center because you don't have to use clips, Save a buck right, but do not do much good threw me.

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    I thought clips where mandatory with 24" spacing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Yes they are needed

    All depends on the thickness of the sheathing ... HIs making a blanket statement that clips are required is what has been going on for decades, and was wrong back then and is still wrong today.

    Depends on the span, the span rating, and the thickness (which also relates to span rating, etc.).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Delete his link while you are at it.
    * so when Brian deletes his posts his link will not linger.
    .
    I've reported all of those posts to Brian, as I am sure others have, and, hopefully, Brian will delete the posts which quote those posts.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  25. #25

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Thanks for the head-up, Jerry!

    Caoimhín


  26. #26
    Steven Meyer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    That sulphur smell may be from you thinking too hard about who to sue next
    YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!! Think he is hopeing there is at least one sheet of that drywall, large law suite, house paid off!!

    I would BET he NEVER smelled sulfer, that was until he heard of "chinese drywall" and its potential of big bucks!

    Typical of attorneys, put the seed in the mind of a consumer, and all of a sudden, he has that "problem"!!

    Think he suffers from to much TV. Attorney adds, "do you auffer from ??, call us at 1-800-get-rich, you may have a claim!

    His chance, in his ares, of having chinese drywall is almost nill, just "trying" to get something for nothing.

    From his "gripes" about his building contractor, this guy is not the sharpest kinfe in the drawer, and I only say that if he ever got as far as the drawer.


  27. #27
    Steven Meyer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jeffries View Post
    Help me out with your persepctive, guys. We've had a transient condition in the house with a sulfur smell. We haven't been able to trace it down . . . and no, it's not the dog.

    While checking out some other issues with our drywall, we noticed that the drywall doesn't have any printing on the back. While reading about the Chinese drywall problem, we read that some of the bad drywall doesn't have a name on it.

    We also read that the Chinese drywall problem was first identified in Florida due to the damp air that accelerated the problems. However, the Chinese drywall problem has been expanded to include lots of other areas including the Southwestern states. We're in the Southwest with a house built in the years when Chinese drywall was used.

    We've read that the consequences haven't been as acute in the Southwest because much of the region is dry. The compounds take longer to leach from the drywall in dry environments and cause the associated problems in the house.

    Pending an official evaluation, I was wondering what everyone thought about an unofficial experiement to help give us an idea if our drywall is the defective product from China.

    Remembering that we're in a dry area where the product doesn't as readily outgass the sulfur, here's what we thought about doing. We'd place a piece of drywall in a small tupperware container without a lid. The container would then be placed within a larger one without a lid that containes a small amount of water in the bottom. Then both containers would be slipped inside of an airtight bag and placed in a sunny window.

    The intent would be to keep the drywall, dry, but allow the water to evaporate within the bag. It would create a humid environment of the kind that accelerates the distinctive sulfur smell described in Chinese drywall infected houses. We would then see if the smell is apparent before we go ahead with further testing.

    What does everyone think about our unofficial test? Do you think it would work?

    Thanks for your insight.
    NOT MUCH

    If that "possibility" exists, hire someone who is qualified to determine the correct results. You will come up with results that you are predetermined to expect.

    Are you qualified, or have a "at home" test for cancer, heart/high blood pressure problems?

    Clean out the refer, may solve your problem.


  28. #28
    John Jeffries's Avatar
    John Jeffries Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Meyer View Post
    YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!! Think he is hopeing there is at least one sheet of that drywall, large law suite, house paid off!!
    Nope, just expecting the developer to deliver what he promised, like "superior" construction as he advertises, or at least one that meets the minimum standards of habitability established by the building codes.

    I would BET he NEVER smelled sulfer, that was until he heard of "chinese drywall" and its potential of big bucks!
    You should try not to "assume" too much. Actually, we did have a smell of rotten eggs that came and went. We think we traced it to the town water supply. Other houses have experienced it, so the town came out and put chlorine through the house pipes in multiple houses. They don't put chlorine in the water supply when it's pulled from the wells around here.

    Typical of attorneys, put the seed in the mind of a consumer, and all of a sudden, he has that "problem"!!

    Think he suffers from to much TV. Attorney adds, "do you auffer from ??, call us at 1-800-get-rich, you may have a claim!

    His chance, in his ares, of having chinese drywall is almost nill, just "trying" to get something for nothing.
    It's more like, the builder has screwed up sooooo much, building a house with multiple serious building code violations like cut/modified engineered trusses, leaving out plan-dictated structural components, failures to follow installation instructions for the siding and roof, and multiple other things, that it makes sense he could have participated in the drywall problem.

    It's issues like that which put questions in people's minds. It's the old concept of, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

    From his "gripes" about his building contractor, this guy is not the sharpest kinfe in the drawer, and I only say that if he ever got as far as the drawer.
    Computer bravado is an interesting psychological concept. It allows people to say things that they wouldn't otherwise say to one's face. I would hope that this poster isn't normally so rude in public.

    BTW, if anyone is interested, my little experiement showed nothing. I didn't get any sulfur smell. It just smelled like damp paper.

    However, it has been determined that the builder messed-up the drywall in other ways and violated a code section. They didn't use the proper drywall in the damp areas like the bathrooms.

    So I guess that by this guy's logic, a homebuyer should just accept shoddy construction, even those acts that violate minimum standards established by the building codes. When the builder refuses to properly fix their cruddy workmanship that they thought was hidden inside the walls, under the paint or deep in the attic, the homeowner should just walk away with their tail between their legs.

    Under those conditions, the homeowner has no recourse. They have no power. They're in possession of the defectively constructed product while the builder has their money and just denies anything that requires an expensive fix to make right. The homeowner is left with no choice but to pursue the only avenue left open to them.

    If this poster still doesn't think a homeowner should stand up for what is right, there's nothing I can say. I don't know if he's one of them, but some people are just shills for the building industry. Nothing will change their mind, including discussions about ethical business practices, trade competence, and pride in workmanship that seem increasingly missing from the construction industry.

    For the vast majority that posted constructive comments, thank you. For anyone else that felt the need to cower behind their computer screen, I feel sorry for you.

    Last edited by John Jeffries; 05-03-2009 at 11:04 PM.

  29. #29
    Gary Cox's Avatar
    Gary Cox Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Hi John,

    There are so many questions...where to begin.


    1. Do you have a water softener system with a newer water heater? This is often a bad combination and can cause extreme sulphur smell in hot water supply. Caused by rod being particular type of metal. It can be changed out.
    2. Has the house or any sink in the house been out of use for a period of time allowing P-traps to dry out (the curved white plastic/metal pipe under a sink. When they dry out..sewer gas seeps into home.
    3. Are you on septic? Perhaps your smelling sewer.
    on and on and on and on.

    I'm betting it ain't chinese drywall.

    GC


  30. #30
    John Jeffries's Avatar
    John Jeffries Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Cox View Post
    Hi John,

    There are so many questions...where to begin.


    1. Do you have a water softener system with a newer water heater? This is often a bad combination and can cause extreme sulphur smell in hot water supply. Caused by rod being particular type of metal. It can be changed out.
    2. Has the house or any sink in the house been out of use for a period of time allowing P-traps to dry out (the curved white plastic/metal pipe under a sink. When they dry out..sewer gas seeps into home.
    3. Are you on septic? Perhaps your smelling sewer.
    on and on and on and on.

    I'm betting it ain't chinese drywall.

    GC
    Hi Gary,

    I'm betting it isn't Chinese drywall, too. Although it has been identified in Nevada, we may not have it.

    It probably is water related. Thank you for the direction with the questions, but it actually appears to be the town-provided water. They told us they don't sanitize the water with chlorine when it's pulled from the water company wells and they have run into this problem with other houses.

    Interestingly enough, the multiple houses that have experienced the problem have all been built by our builder, according to the water company workers. They conjectured that there might be some plumbling component that contributed to the issue.

    For someone's benefit who might be expereincing the same problem, here's the answers to your questions:

    1) The water heater was brand-new and came with the house. It's a 75 gallon A.O. Smith and is about 1 1/2 years old. It's connected to a PEX piping system in the walls with copper stubouts. There is no water softener system on the house.

    We've tried to keep on top of the maintenance with the water heater. It consists of turning off the gas and draining/rinsing-out the water heater. We've done it twice so far, once in the Fall and once in the Spring.

    2) The P-traps all have water in them. None have been out of use to dry-out and allow sewer gas entry to the property.

    3) We're on city sewer, not on a septic system.

    Again, thanks for your suggestions. Perhaps if someone else runs across this thread while seeking answers to a similar situation in their house, they may be able to eliminate or confirm some possibilities.


  31. #31
    Steven Meyer's Avatar
    Steven Meyer Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Jeffries View Post
    Nope, just expecting the developer to deliver what he promised, like "superior" construction as he advertises, or at least one that meets the minimum standards of habitability established by the building codes.



    You should try not to "assume" too much. Actually, we did have a smell of rotten eggs that came and went. We think we traced it to the town water supply. Other houses have experienced it, so the town came out and put chlorine through the house pipes in multiple houses. They don't put chlorine in the water supply when it's pulled from the wells around here.



    It's more like, the builder has screwed up sooooo much, building a house with multiple serious building code violations like cut/modified engineered trusses, leaving out plan-dictated structural components, failures to follow installation instructions for the siding and roof, and multiple other things, that it makes sense he could have participated in the drywall problem.

    It's issues like that which put questions in people's minds. It's the old concept of, "Where there's smoke, there's fire."



    Computer bravado is an interesting psychological concept. It allows people to say things that they wouldn't otherwise say to one's face. I would hope that this poster isn't normally so rude in public.

    BTW, if anyone is interested, my little experiement showed nothing. I didn't get any sulfur smell. It just smelled like damp paper.

    However, it has been determined that the builder messed-up the drywall in other ways and violated a code section. They didn't use the proper drywall in the damp areas like the bathrooms.

    So I guess that by this guy's logic, a homebuyer should just accept shoddy construction, even those acts that violate minimum standards established by the building codes. When the builder refuses to properly fix their cruddy workmanship that they thought was hidden inside the walls, under the paint or deep in the attic, the homeowner should just walk away with their tail between their legs.

    Under those conditions, the homeowner has no recourse. They have no power. They're in possession of the defectively constructed product while the builder has their money and just denies anything that requires an expensive fix to make right. The homeowner is left with no choice but to pursue the only avenue left open to them.

    If this poster still doesn't think a homeowner should stand up for what is right, there's nothing I can say. I don't know if he's one of them, but some people are just shills for the building industry. Nothing will change their mind, including discussions about ethical business practices, trade competence, and pride in workmanship that seem increasingly missing from the construction industry.

    For the vast majority that posted constructive comments, thank you. For anyone else that felt the need to cower behind their computer screen, I feel sorry for you.
    If all you have listed as problems, drywall seems to be the least of your problems.

    You say the house was inspected by 2 inspectors, and they missed all this?? Also, some or much was "hidden" or not eaisly accessable. If that be the case, just how was all of this discovered?

    You imply that the 2 inspectors were "favorable" toward the builder. I find that hard to believe, especially considering the seriousness of the problems you list. The liability is just to great for the inspector.

    None of this was caught by the state building inspector?

    If, in fact, all these problems exist and are proovable, then you would have a civil action against the builder. So there is a remedy available to you to hold him responsible. so there is an avenue for you to pursue. I am not defending the builder, there are many out there that cut corners, buy the cheapest materials, and care more about their bottom line than a quality product

    Hiding behind a computer screen, hardly. I just question how so many defects can get past the building inspector AND 2 home inspectors.

    This just may be a lesson learned. One, check out the reputation of the builder. If there were this amount of problems with house, there had to be others in his background.

    There is nothing wrong with enginered trusses, nor osb (I personall;y don't like osb, and don't use it) butit is used extensively in new construction.

    Your best bet, would be to have a house built for you, where you can "oversee" the construction, and spec. the materials and methods of construction you want.

    When you buy a spec. home, what ya see, is what ya get. Buyer beware!


  32. #32
    Steven Meyer's Avatar
    Steven Meyer Guest

    Default Re: Chinese Drywall - Experiment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I believe the dates have now been stretched out to around 2000 (when the first shipments may have arrived) to 2009 (as some of that stuff is still in warehouses, and you know how much business people hate to throw things away).
    I would think if any of that is still hanging around a warehouse, most would refrain from selling it. Most law suites goes after the builder, supplier, manufacturer, and just for the heck of it, the trucking company that delivered it. Shotgun law suit, sue everyone involved, no matter how small their "responsability" is.

    If anyone is still selling this stuff, they are dumber than a rock.


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