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  1. #1
    Denise DuLac's Avatar
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    Default "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Re: Egress--per permit:
    EGRESS: Every sleeping room, basement, loft, mezzanine or room or area that can be used as a sleeping room and contains a closet shall have at least one openable window or door that complies with Section R310.1 2000 IRC

    This "room" does not have a closet. Do we still need to have an egress window in addition to the egress window that is in the adjoining bathroom (without a door).

    Thanks for the help.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denise DuLac View Post
    Re: Egress--per permit:
    EGRESS: Every sleeping room, basement, loft, mezzanine or room or area that can be used as a sleeping room and contains a closet...
    Anyone dumb enough to sleep in a room that doesn't have a closet deserves to die by fire/smoke, I guess.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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  3. #3
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denise DuLac View Post
    Re: Egress--per permit:
    EGRESS: Every sleeping room, basement, loft, mezzanine or room or area that can be used as a sleeping room and contains a closet shall have at least one openable window or door that complies with Section R310.1 2000 IRC

    This "room" does not have a closet. Do we still need to have an egress window in addition to the egress window that is in the adjoining bathroom (without a door).

    Thanks for the help.
    Denise:

    No window required if it is not to be used as a bedroom (sleeping room), and if you have artificial lighting.


  4. #4
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    I thought that sounded strange.
    My copy - 2000 IRC, 310.1 doesn't read like that.
    There is no mention of a closet.
    What is posted may be from a HI school somewhere.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Denise, that wording has is not in the more recent IRC codes, my copy of the 2003 has it marked as a change from the previous version and there is no mention of closets.
    I believe the intent there was to qualify the "room or area that can be used as a sleeping room and contains a closet shall" not to provide a loop hole so that a person could eliminate closets from bedrooms to avoid having to provide emergency egress. That is likely why it was reworded in the newer versions, to remove any ambiguity.
    Your inspector has it right and is trying to keep you from killing yourself or another. Either provide the proper emergency egress in the bedroom or remove the bathroom and wall that blocks the egress through the larger window.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  6. #6
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
    A.D. Miller Guest

    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    You may want to identify which code applies to your area:

    http://www.iccsafe.org/government/map/co.htm

    The 2000 version reads:

    310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required. Basements with habitable space and every sleeping room shall have at least one openable emergency escape and rescue window or exterior door opening for emergency escape and rescue.

    The 2003 version reads:

    R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required. Basements with habitable space and every sleeping room shall have at least one openable emergency escape and rescue opening.

    The 2006 version reads:

    R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue required. Basements and every sleeping room shall have at least one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Such opening shall open directly into a public street, public alley, yard or court.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denise DuLac View Post
    Re: Egress--per permit:

    I believe Denise is posting what the permit says, not what a code says.

    Thus ... *in addition to* ... the requirements of the code will be the requirements of the permit, or vice versa.

    In this case the permit includes that "and a closet" whereas the code does not, the code simply states "basements and every sleeping room," (2006 IRC), "basements with habitable space and every sleeping room" (2003 IRC).

    The closet only comes into the dissuasion when trying to identify the ultimate intended purpose of the room, as in: no closet and it was "most likely" not ultimately intended or designed to every be used as a sleeping room (bedroom). That a den or an office as an example of those rooms.

    Now add in a closet and it becomes obvious that the ultimate intent is that at some point in the future the room could be changed from a den or office into a sleeping room and therefore is required to have an EERO.

    Per the wording on the permit (if that is where Denise's wording is from) you could have a living room with a coat closet and that now fits the definition of "and a closet" and is now required to have an EERO. Or even a dining room, had a closet, say for silver, dishes, extra chairs, whatever reason ... that room "CAN" be used for sleeping so it now requires an EERO.

    I think someone made an attempt to clarify the intent and stop builders from trying to maneuver out of installing EEROs, but that attempt appears to have exceeded their wildest dreams as I am sure they had no intent to include a living room with a coat closet.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Would we define an armoire as a portable closet, making any room it is in a bedroom? Or is that OK?

    I check any basement room for egress and describe it in my report, ie, window too small or too high for safe egress. A den with a hide-a-bed is a bedroom in my book, with or without the armoire.

    In fact, if you can fall asleep in that room, then it should be made safe.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    In fact, if you can fall asleep in that room, then it should be made safe.

    A "sleeping room" and "a room you can sleep in" are two entirely different things.

    However, I understand what you are saying and agree with it to the point just short of requiring an EERO in "any room you can sleep in", heck, under that definition one *could* "sleep" in the bathroom, therefore the bathroom requires an EERO, or, one *could* sleep in the clothes closet, therefore that clothes closet requires an EERO ... ? I think not, and that logic needs to be transferred to other room in which "one can sleep" but which is not a "sleeping room".

    Heck, under the right conditions a person could fall asleep in an attic or crawl space, therefore an attic or crawl space requires an EERO?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    AHeck, under the right conditions a person could fall asleep in an attic or crawl space, therefore an attic or crawl space requires an EERO?
    Jerry, not all of us camp out long enough in the attic or crawl to need to take a nap. Is that why you did those multi day inspections?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  11. #11
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Luttrall View Post
    Jerry, not all of us camp out long enough in the attic or crawl to need to take a nap. Is that why you did those multi day inspections?

    Yeah, after the first couple of hours in the attic I had to rest ... ... next thing I knew it was time to head home ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    You say that there's an egress window in the adjoining bathroom. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall an ICC interpretation that allowed an egress window in an adjoining bathroom to qualify as the required bedroom emergency egress provided, of course, that it meets the dimensional controls.


  13. #13
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    A "sleeping room" and "a room you can sleep in" are two entirely different things.

    However, I understand what you are saying and agree with it to the point just short of requiring an EERO in "any room you can sleep in", heck, under that definition one *could* "sleep" in the bathroom, therefore the bathroom requires an EERO, or, one *could* sleep in the clothes closet, therefore that clothes closet requires an EERO ... ? I think not, and that logic needs to be transferred to other room in which "one can sleep" but which is not a "sleeping room".

    Heck, under the right conditions a person could fall asleep in an attic or crawl space, therefore an attic or crawl space requires an EERO?
    JP: I believe your myopic obsessions may well have their origins in all of those nights you fell asleep on the kitchen island (has a closet - pantry) after one too many Bordeauxs.


  14. #14
    dsuser896's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Would we define an armoire as a portable closet, making any room it is in a bedroom? Or is that OK?

    I check any basement room for egress and describe it in my report, ie, window too small or too high for safe egress. A den with a hide-a-bed is a bedroom in my book, with or without the armoire.

    In fact, if you can fall asleep in that room, then it should be made safe.
    Well, technically, I don't think those are not portable closets. Portable closets are usually made of thinner material, and have wheels. This site has everything about portable closet u'd wanna know, Portable Closets ยป Portable Closet


  15. #15
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    This topic reminds me of an early 1900's cigar factory building converted to "Tony lofts" that I inspected earlier this summer in Tampa, FL. Guest bedroom, accessed off foyer with a closet had no window at all. Door opening to room was 4 foot wide on roller hardware (like a bi-pass closet door) and had no lock. I knew the unit rehab had recently been CO'd. So what did I do? I wrote it up of course which infuriated the builder who immediately produced the AHJ CO to the buyer. Realtor was upset too. Do I care? Of course not. I did my job. So now in the future, if someone gets hurt or, God forbid, dies, it's not my problem. Call em like you see em.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Was the unit vacant and you assumed that it was a guest bedroom, or was it actually being used as a bedroom at the time? If it was being used as a bedroom, it should also have had a smoke detector, and the use was probably in violation of the original plans, permit and C.O.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: "Room" without a closet - egress window needed?

    Unit was vacant. Never occupied since the renovation. Renovations included interior build out of prior open warehouse space, new electrical, plumbing and AC systems. Yes- there was a smoke detector in the room. And yes-I assumed it to be a bedroom because it could definately be used for that purpose (room had a closet).


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