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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Fire Rated Door?

    This door was located at the top of a staircase which is accessed via the garage. The space above the garage is finished, it's a family room. This appears to be a knotty alder door, only a little thicker than average. However, I could not locate any fire rating on the door.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    a paneled door would generally not be fire rated as it is not solid. I would just recommend a fire rated door due to lack of stamp at door and move on


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    "Re: Fire Rated Door?"

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    However, I could not locate any fire rating on the door.
    Quote Originally Posted by wayne soper View Post
    a paneled door would generally not be fire rated as it is not solid. I would just recommend a fire rated door due to lack of stamp at door and move on

    AAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

    It does not have to be a "fire rated door".

    From the 2006 IRC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

    Does that door meet ANY of the above. Wayne is close here.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    and it should be noted that they moved Section 309.1 Opening Protection in the 2006 IRC to 302.5.1 in the 2009 IRC. I still don't understand the removal of the "self-closing" requirement, but there's lots I don't understand?

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  5. #5
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    The door was solid. They had the room set up as a game room but there is "kinda" a bedroom at one end. Anyway, the door is solid alder.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Double Arrrrrhhhggg - The person who sleeps in that "kinda bedroom" can some day wake up "kinda dead." BTW, the 3/8 inch solid thickness is measured at the door's narrowest points.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

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    Post Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Based on the metal threshold I would have to say that the door is either rated for exterior use and/or is considered a "fire rated" garage-house door.


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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    I still don't understand the removal of the "self-closing" requirement,
    WC Jerry,

    Because it is not a "fire door". Now, when one installs that 20-minute fire-rated door, that will be self-closing as that is one of the requirements fire-rated doors ... that they be self-closing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  9. #9
    Ray Norton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    What am I missing here? Where is the requirement that a 20-minute fire-rated door be self-closing?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    The door was solid. They had the room set up as a game room but there is "kinda" a bedroom at one end. Anyway, the door is solid alder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry McCarthy View Post
    BTW, the 3/8 inch solid thickness is measured at the door's narrowest points.
    That is what I was trying to get people to think about above, and Wayne was close.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    Based on the metal threshold I would have to say that the door is either rated for exterior use and/or is considered a "fire rated" garage-house door.
    Trent,

    That could be one deadly mistake on your part.

    Why on earth would you ASSUME that door is "or is considered a "fire rated" garage-house door"?

    If it is a "fire-rated" door it will have a label stating so.

    If it is 1-3/8" you KNOW it is not an "exterior type" door.

    And, as WC Jerry stated, the only 1-3/8" "solid wood" doors are flat slab doors made from ... "solid wood". I have seen a few ... A VERY FEW ... of those in my life, they are not your everyday "wood slab door".

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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Trent,

    That could be one deadly mistake on your part.

    Why on earth would you ASSUME that door is "or is considered a "fire rated" garage-house door"?

    If it is a "fire-rated" door it will have a label stating so.

    If it is 1-3/8" you KNOW it is not an "exterior type" door.

    And, as WC Jerry stated, the only 1-3/8" "solid wood" doors are flat slab doors made from ... "solid wood". I have seen a few ... A VERY FEW ... of those in my life, they are not your everyday "wood slab door".
    Once again I am not telling any one that the door is a "fire rated" door or door that may be allowed as a garage-house door. It just has the appearance from the photo that it very well could be. If you go down to your local building supply store you will find that the majority of pre-hung exterior rated doors and "fire-rated" garage-house doors all have the metal threshold at the bottom like the one in the photo. Which once again leads me to believe that the door in the photo may actually be approved as a garage-house door. Of course without actually seeing the door or having more info. none of us can make the call either way.


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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    If you go down to your local building supply store you will find that the majority of pre-hung exterior rated doors and "fire-rated" garage-house doors all have the metal threshold at the bottom like the one in the photo.
    Once again, my point is that no one should presume, or even think, that door is a fire-rated door.

    First and foremost because it is a panel door like that.

    Second, addressing going do to your local building supply store ... I doubt you will find a "fire-rated" door there.

    I think there are many people who make many presumptions, and this is not addressed at you , Trent, but in general, based on "the way things look".

    You are correct in that if one was there and one did find a label on that door which said it was a 20 minute fire-rated door ... then it would be so, otherwise it would not.

    As far as the other options the code gives, it is definitely not those EITHER.

    And to presume that one can take an door made for exterior use and use it as a garage door is presuming way more than is fact. The exterior door would also have to meet the code's requirements, and a "solid or honeycomb core steel door" which was also an exterior door, would meet those requirements as that exterior door would be 1-3/4" and the garage door only needs to be 1-3/8".

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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    The door may not be a true panel door. Most likely it's solid core door that has been milled to replicate a panel door. Which still of course makes the recessed areas not as thick as the rest of the door.


  14. #14
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Ok the door is solid wood, there is no question. So I believe it is acceptable. Is this the case.


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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Is this the case.
    No.

    How thick is that door?

    Needs 1-3/8" of wood to burn through, does that door have 1-3/8" if wood?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Crap I did not measure it but I think it was around 2 inches.


  17. #17
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Looking at the latch and deadbolt the door is at least 1 3/4" thick.If 2in thick then the thinness part of the panel could be 1 3/8", but no label = not rated = no fire door.And it is not just the door but the door and frame which has to be rated.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Thanks. I am going to mention it.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Crap I did not measure it but I think it was around 2 inches.
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    Looking at the latch and deadbolt the door is at least 1 3/4" thick.If 2in thick then the thinness part of the panel could be 1 3/8", but no label = not rated = no fire door.And it is not just the door but the door and frame which has to be rated.
    No, the thinnest part of the door would be the thin part of the panels where the panels taper down, which is probably 1/2" maximum.

    Typically, if that is not an exterior door, the door stiles and rails will be 1-3/8", with the panels being 3/4" to 1" thick at the thick part of the panels.

    If that is really an exterior door, the door stiles and rails will be 1-3/4" thick, with the panels still being 1" thick at the thick part of the panels still being 3/4" to 1" thick at the thicker parts of the panels.

    The panels are shaped down to maybe 1/2" maximum as the shaped tapered edges of the panels are set into a recess with the shaped inside edges of the stiles and rails.

    Thus those panel doors are, at most, 1/2" thick (you have to consider the thinnest part of the door). My office has similar panel doors and I'd be reluctant to even say those panel edges are 1/2" thick, probably more like 1/4".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    2009 IRC - 302.5.1 Opening protection: Openings from a private garage directly into a room for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 1-3/8 inches thick, or 20 minute fire-rated doors.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  21. #21
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Jerry.Your office doors might look like that but they do not come close.That door is an exterior door min. thickness 1 3/4".Look at the edge of this door and the edge of your interior doors,look at the hardware.The panels on an interior door are probably no more the 3/8" thick at the outside.The thicker the door,the thicker the panel.On a 2 in thick door it's a safe bet to say it's more than 1/2".

    Do we know if the jambs are wood or metal?Maybe the label was removed.

    Knotty Alder Fire Rated 20 Min :: Fire Rated 20 Min Doors :: The #1 Source for Mahogany Doors :: Louver :: Exterior Mahogany :: Interior Mahogany :: Solid Oak Doors :: Entry Doors :: Custom Doors :: Discount Doors


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    Jerry.Your office doors might look like that but they do not come close.That door is an exterior door min. thickness 1 3/4".Look at the edge of this door and the edge of your interior doors,look at the hardware.The panels on an interior door are probably no more the 3/8" thick at the outside.The thicker the door,the thicker the panel.On a 2 in thick door it's a safe bet to say it's more than 1/2".

    Do we know if the jambs are wood or metal?Maybe the label was removed.

    Knotty Alder Fire Rated 20 Min :: Fire Rated 20 Min Doors :: The #1 Source for Mahogany Doors :: Louver :: Exterior Mahogany :: Interior Mahogany :: Solid Oak Doors :: Entry Doors :: Custom Doors :: Discount Doors

    Micheal,

    My office doors are 1-3/8", the exterior door is going to be 1-3/4", that is only 3/8" greater in thickness. If you take 1-3/4" and subtract the minimum allowable thickness of 1-3/8" you only get a recess or 3/8" divided by 2 or 3/16" recess on each side of the door.

    If you have ever worked with doors you will KNOW that the panels are recessed more than 3/16".

    Okay, because you keep harping on that door being thick enough, I went and measured my FRONT DOOR, a full 1-3/4" thick door with panels.

    I measured the panels as being recessed back from the face of the door by 5/8" as best I could measure, that means the panels at the thinnest part is 1-3/4" - 1-1/4" (5/8" + 5/8" - 1-1/4") = 1/2" thick at the narrow part of the panel.

    Go back and read my posts as to what I guess that thickness would be ... 1/2".

    Okay, let's assume that I could not get a good measurement on the panel and they were only recessed 1/2" instead of 5/8", okay, that means the panels at that location are 1/8" + 1/8" = 1/4" thicker, or 3/4" thicker than the 1/2" I guessed at.

    Okay, now here is the tricky part: The panel doors, giving the best possible thickness, are 3/4" thick at the recessed areas of the panels and the minimum code thickness is 1-3/8", so, are those panel doors 1-3/8" thick?

    Hint: No.

    *IF* that is a fire-rated door (such as you linked to) the label is required to be a PERMANENT LABEL ... and if the label fell off, then the door is not a listed fire-rated door. That is giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was ever labeled.

    Now, you ask, how can a panel door which is less than 1-3/8" thick be a 20 minute fire-rated door when a similar door (same style and thickness) is not allowed? Simple: because one was TESTED and PASSED and one was not tested.

    I you were familiar with doors at all you would KNOW without even having to look at a panel door that the recessed edges of the panels ARE NOT 1-3/8" thick.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  23. #23
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fire Rated Door?

    Re: Fire Rated Door?
    Looking at the latch and deadbolt the door is at least 1 3/4" thick.If 2in thick then the thinness part of the panel could be 1 3/8", but no label = not rated = no fire door.And it is not just the door but the door and frame which has to be rated.

    Jerry,as usual your opening your mouth without thinking.If and could are the key words in my post above.If 2ins and could be 1 3/8".Walk into any store and buy an exterior pre hung door and it will be 1 3/4" and they are all pretty much standard,buy a custom door and the make up of the door can be anything but standard.For a man who claims to have installed many hundreds of doors,you really do give the impression of knowing very little about the subject.I could have told you your door was 1 3/4" thick.As for the picture at the beginning of the post,we can only guess as with any picture on this site. Look at the latch and deadbolt in relation to the thickness of the door{in the picture}then go to any door and compare.You can make a good guess as to the thickness.
    As for the link,people can take what they want from that,it is just there for information.
    Pictures are great.Pictures with lots of details are even better.Go ahead Jerry have the last word.Bye




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