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  1. #1
    John Stephenson's Avatar
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    Default Stairway bottom landing

    Last edited by John Stephenson; 12-21-2007 at 01:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Healdsburg, CA
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    Cool Re: Stairway bottom landing

    That's not a landing, but rather a large tread.
    2006 IRC R311.5.4 Landings for stairways: There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.
    Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
    A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
    The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction
    of travel.
    (Highlighted for emphasis)

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    25,304

    Default Re: Stairway bottom landing

    While it seems that West Coast Jerry feels the same way I do about 'that type of tread', the code is not so clear ...


    R311.5.3.2 Tread depth.
    The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches (254 mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the treadís leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12 inches (305 mm) from the side where the treads are narrower. Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any point. Within any flight of stairs, the largest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).


    I know, what about tread depth variation ...

    the largest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).

    My interpretation is that, while winders are allowed in a means of egress, they are not allowed 'within' a flight of straight stairs.

    Also, going back to landings ...

    R311.5.4 Landings for stairways.



    There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.

    - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.
    - A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
    - The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    My interpretation, which seems to also be that of West Coast Jerry, is that the landing must be in the direction of travel, straight down the stairs, i.e., the direction in which one would most likely fall.

    HOWEVER, ...

    Many, many, many, many (did I say "many"?) building officials and inspector say that winders ARE allowed 'within' a straight flight of stairs.

    Those same building officials and inspectors (may I say "many") also treat "the direction of travel" as being a radius from the top corner of the first riser ascending or the last riser ascending. I.e., you can have a straight flight of stairs, a semi-circular landing, then another straight flight of stairs.

    *I* say you need a straight landing, THEN you can make the semi-circular landing turning to the next flight of stairs.

    *Some* building officials, inspectors, architects, etc., agree with that, many, many, many more do not.

    When calling that out, check with your AHJ and see what they allow, and if they are one of the ones who allow those trip and fall hazards ... try to get them to change their mind (it is extremely difficult to get them to change their mind).

    Besides, if you refer to the book which many HIs provide for a Visual Interpretation of the IRC, you will find ... winders shown in a otherwise straight flight of stairs, with winders taking the place of a proper (in my opinion) landing.


    http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2003%20...C%20SCREEN.pdf

    Look at pages 6 and 8.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: Stairway bottom landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    While it seems that West Coast Jerry feels the same way I do about 'that type of tread', the code is not so clear ...


    R311.5.3.2 Tread depth.
    The minimum tread depth shall be 10 inches (254 mm). The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the treadís leading edge. The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm). Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 10 inches (254 mm) measured as above at a point 12 inches (305 mm) from the side where the treads are narrower. Winder treads shall have a minimum tread depth of 6 inches (152 mm) at any point. Within any flight of stairs, the largest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).


    I know, what about tread depth variation ...


    the largest winder tread depth at the 12 inch (305 mm) walk line shall not exceed the smallest by more than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm).

    My interpretation is that, while winders are allowed in a means of egress, they are not allowed 'within' a flight of straight stairs.

    Also, going back to landings ...

    R311.5.4 Landings for stairways.




    There shall be a floor or landing at the top and bottom of each stairway.


    - Exception: A floor or landing is not required at the top of an interior flight of stairs, including stairs in an enclosed garage, provided a door does not swing over the stairs.

    - A flight of stairs shall not have a vertical rise larger than 12 feet (3658 mm) between floor levels or landings.
    - The width of each landing shall not be less than the width of the stairway served. Every landing shall have a minimum dimension of 36 inches (914 mm) measured in the direction of travel.

    My interpretation, which seems to also be that of West Coast Jerry, is that the landing must be in the direction of travel, straight down the stairs, i.e., the direction in which one would most likely fall.

    HOWEVER, ...

    Many, many, many, many (did I say "many"?) building officials and inspector say that winders ARE allowed 'within' a straight flight of stairs.

    Those same building officials and inspectors (may I say "many") also treat "the direction of travel" as being a radius from the top corner of the first riser ascending or the last riser ascending. I.e., you can have a straight flight of stairs, a semi-circular landing, then another straight flight of stairs.

    *I* say you need a straight landing, THEN you can make the semi-circular landing turning to the next flight of stairs.

    *Some* building officials, inspectors, architects, etc., agree with that, many, many, many more do not.

    When calling that out, check with your AHJ and see what they allow, and if they are one of the ones who allow those trip and fall hazards ... try to get them to change their mind (it is extremely difficult to get them to change their mind).

    Besides, if you refer to the book which many HIs provide for a Visual Interpretation of the IRC, you will find ... winders shown in a otherwise straight flight of stairs, with winders taking the place of a proper (in my opinion) landing.





    http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2003%20...C%20SCREEN.pdf

    Look at pages 6 and 8.
    I don't disagree Jerry, but most often winders are built because of space limitations. If you had space for a landing, most times winders wouldn't even be considered.

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    25,304

    Default Re: Stairway bottom landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    I don't disagree Jerry, but most often winders are built because of space limitations. If you had space for a landing, most times winders wouldn't even be considered.
    Not having space for a landing is *not* a reason to put winders in a straight stair. It may be an "excuse", but it is not a "reason".

    Not having space means someone put the stairs at the bottom of the design-for-this-space list instead of at the top of the design-for-this-space list.

    Stairs are far and away the greatest fall hazard in a dwelling, and for anyone to allow, or install, winders in a straight stair without a landing separating the winders from the straight stair is just *designing in* the greatest fall hazard in the dwelling and should, in my opinion, be totally held liable for all damages when someone falls down those stairs, even if it means they go broke - because they should not have installed winders there in the first place and thus should not have been in the business of designing/construction which resulted in that condition being created.

    It is one of my hot button pet peeves ... there is simply no "reason" for do that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    249

    Default Re: Stairway bottom landing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Not having space for a landing is *not* a reason to put winders in a straight stair. It may be an "excuse", but it is not a "reason".

    Not having space means someone put the stairs at the bottom of the design-for-this-space list instead of at the top of the design-for-this-space list.

    Stairs are far and away the greatest fall hazard in a dwelling, and for anyone to allow, or install, winders in a straight stair without a landing separating the winders from the straight stair is just *designing in* the greatest fall hazard in the dwelling and should, in my opinion, be totally held liable for all damages when someone falls down those stairs, even if it means they go broke - because they should not have installed winders there in the first place and thus should not have been in the business of designing/construction which resulted in that condition being created.

    It is one of my hot button pet peeves ... there is simply no "reason" for do that.
    Boy I guess it is your hot button. Geeezz, I shouldn't ask how you feel about spiral stairs...

    Here in Michigan we have our own code, patterned after IRC. However, we have a very lax stairway code. Max rise is 8-1/4" and min tread in 9! How would you like a 42.5 degree angle stairs in your home?

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

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