Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    brianmiller's Avatar
    brianmiller Guest

    Default garage door to living space

    I did a 1970 home today. the garage door that leads into the utility room is doubled keyed. Would you guys write this up , mention in your report? I know egress doors can't be doubled-keyed but I think this is okay. Stupid in my opinion, but not a defect.

    br

    Similar Threads:
    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #2
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
    Richard Stanley Guest

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    "I know egress doors can't be doubled-keyed"
    You answered your own question.
    What if the house was built last week?
    What would you tell the next of kin?


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    There are two types of "egress" doors: 1) those which are required; 2) those which are not required but will be used anyway.

    Okay, the door from the garage to the utility to (I am presuming here, you did not say) the house - that door had a double keyed dead bolt.

    By the way any door *CAN* be double keyed (double dead bolt), they just are not *ALLOWED* to be ... which brings us to the term for that locking device ... "dead" bolt ... yes, that is another meaning of what will happen when you install double dead bolts.

    As Richard said: What will you tell the next of kin? Or, as I've always said it, "the surviving spouse"?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    I think he is describing a door that opens to a utility room only, not a door that opens into a utility room that leads to the house. If so, then that is not an egress door, so no restriction on dbl cylinder dead bolts.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    I think he is describing a door that opens to a utility room only, not a door that opens into a utility room that leads to the house. If so, then that is not an egress door, so no restriction on dbl cylinder dead bolts.
    That's why I was clarifying what was being discussed, because, if it was only for a utility room ... why would you need a keyed lock, or any lock for that matter, on the utility room side? To lock yourself into the utility room? That did not make sense, so I am guessing he is talking about a utility room which connects the living space with the garage.

    We shall see when he clarifies what is being described.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Jerry
    I have seen utility rooms that have windows in them. Having windows gives access to the room, in turn allowing access to the garage. If the door is DBL keyed, access is limited, making the home safer.
    If no window, I dont think it wise to have the DBL key lock there.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  7. #7
    brianmiller's Avatar
    brianmiller Guest

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    sorry, let me clarify:

    there is the hallway in the living space (in the house) that leads into a utility room,. There is no door between the hallway and the utility room. The opposite side of the utility is the door, which is keyed on the utility room side and the garage side. There is no other entrance into the garage, other than the car garage door.

    Sounds like you guys would write it up.


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by brianmiller View Post
    Sounds like you guys would write it up.
    I would because, even though that door to the garage is not "considered" an acceptable door to egress out through as one is "not allowed" to count the egress out through the garage as the garage is a different occupancy and not "outdoors", if there is a fire blocking access out of the utility room, the only way out will be that door into the garage and then out the garage, meaning one would also need to open the garage vehicle door, which means that garage vehicle door needs to be able to open easily ... and if the counter balances are set properly, it will (provided that door is not locked shut with a lock and key).

    As home inspectors, we can write that up, as code inspectors we could not.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    2006 IRC
    R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch.
    All egress doors shall be
    readily openable from the side from which egress is to be

    made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

    If there is no personnel door in the garage, there is debate as to if the garage is an egress.


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    If there is no personnel door in the garage, there is debate as to if the garage is an egress.
    Rick,

    With or without a pedestrian door from the garage to the outdoors, the garage IS NOT ALLOWED to be counted as an egress as one is NOT ALLOWED to egress from one occupancy into another and then outdoors, and a garage is a different occupancy than the dwelling is.

    Now, being NOT ALLOWED is not the same thing as 'will not be used as', we all know that everything will be used as whatever someone wants or needs to use it, but the code is only minimum and is only addressing minimum requirements.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space


    Good morning Jerry

    The code does not define what an egress door is, but common usage suggest it means a door to exit the dwelling.

    Looking at the codes it does say that egress doors are not to have DBL keyed locks on them.

    R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch.
    All egress doors shall be
    readily openable from the side from which egress is to be

    made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort

    But is the garage an egress?
    For that we need to look elsewhere.

    E3803.3 Additional locations.
    At least one wall-switch-controlled
    lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways,
    attached garages, and detached garages with electric power. At
    least one wall-switch-controlled lighting outlet shall be installed
    to provide illumination on the exterior side of each outdoor
    egress door having grade level access, including outdoor egress
    doors for attached garages and detached garages with electric
    power. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an

    outdoor egress door.

    So clearly, the codes DO consider a door in the garage exiting to the outside an EGRESS door. A garage is not required to have a door to the outside, but if one is there, it must meet the requirements of the codes.

    But that still leaves some question as to if the door from the dwelling to the garage is an egress.
    I question, why would there be a code that requires egress doors not to have dbl keyed locks, if the route to the egress door can have doors that can only be opened with a key? Same as having dbl key locks on the bedroom doors, or any other door that would serve as a route of egress.

    Now for the clincher.
    After reading the code and thinking about this, I see something that I did not see before.
    There IS NOT a code that prohibits an egress door from having a dbl cyl deadbolt installed in them.
    I gotta go, and will leave it at that, for now.


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    So clearly, the codes DO consider a door in the garage exiting to the outside an EGRESS door.


    Rick,

    That door from the garage to the outdoors is an EGRESS DOOR FROM THE GARAGE ... NOT an egress door from the house.

    We have been discussing egress doors FROM THE HOUSE LIVING SPACE.

    - R311.4 Doors.
    - - R311.4.1 Exit door required. Not less than one exit door conforming to this section shall be provided for each dwelling unit. The required exit door shall provide for direct access from the habitable portions of the dwelling to the exterior without requiring travel through a garage. Access to habitable levels not having an exit in accordance with this section shall be by a ramp in accordance with Section R311.6 or a stairway in accordance with Section R311.5.

    I.e., the garage IS NOT ALLOWED to be used for egress, which is what I have been, and still am, saying, and ... therefore ... the pedestrian door from the garage to the outdoors IS NOT AN EGRESS DOOR from the house living space, and the garage is not allowed to be used as an egress path, thus the DOOR FROM THE LIVING SPACE TO THE GARAGE, which is what we are discussing, *IS NOT A EGRESS DOOR* ... according to the code and is not allowed to be used as a required means of egress.

    Which gets us back to what I said originally - that even though that is not an egress door, you can bet someone will use it as such should the need arise.

    A garage is not required to have a door to the outside, but if one is there, it must meet the requirements of the codes.


    FOR USE AS AN EGRESS FROM THE GARAGE, but you are trying to make into an egress from THE HOUSE and it is not.

    But that still leaves some question as to if the door from the dwelling to the garage is an egress.


    Nope.

    Read the code I posted above.

    The door from the dwelling to the garage IS NOT AN EGRESS door.

    I question, why would there be a code that requires egress doors not to have dbl keyed locks, if the route to the egress door can have doors that can only be opened with a key? Same as having dbl key locks on the bedroom doors, or any other door that would serve as a route of egress.

    Now for the clincher.
    After reading the code and thinking about this, I see something that I did not see before.
    There IS NOT a code that prohibits an egress door from having a dbl cyl deadbolt installed in them.
    Seems to me that you need to read the code BETTER.

    - R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch. All egress doors shall be readily openable from the side from which egress is to be made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.

    Not sure what it is you do not understand about that code section? Or did you just not read far enough and stopped reading the code where you wanted to?


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Ok, I'm back.

    R311.4 is about the requirements of "The Exit door". The exit door requirements are more restrictive than for egress doors. Only the EXIT door is prohibited from opening into a garage.
    The exit door is an egress door but egress doors may not be the exit door. Example of egress doors that cannot be the exit door are a sliding door, 32" door, and I think, the door to a garage.


    "the garage IS NOT ALLOWED to be used for egress"
    The garage is not allowed to be used for "the required exit door".
    The code does not say the garage cannot be used for egress.
    Heck, I egress through my garage every day.

    "...according to the code and is not allowed to be used as a required means of egress."
    Agreed, as you have written it. However, I did not say the door to the garage is a required means of egress. The ONLY REQUIRED means of egress is "the exit door", (not including EEROs).


    Now for the clincher.
    There IS NOT a code that prohibits an egress door from having a dbl cyl deadbolt installed in them.

    The code does say "WITHOUT THE USE OF A KEY ... on egress doors.
    No prohibition on having the lock installed.
    Something to think on.

    Anyhow, I see nothing that indicates that a door to a garage cannot be an egress.
    Yet

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Bruce,

    Why did you delete your post?

    It was on point and correct.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Ok, I'm back.

    R311.4 is about the requirements of "The Exit door". The exit door requirements are more restrictive than for egress doors. Only the EXIT door is prohibited from opening into a garage.
    The exit door is an egress door but egress doors may not be the exit door. Example of egress doors that cannot be the exit door are a sliding door, 32" door, and I think, the door to a garage.


    "the garage IS NOT ALLOWED to be used for egress"
    The garage is not allowed to be used for "the required exit door".
    The code does not say the garage cannot be used for egress.
    Heck, I egress through my garage every day.

    "...according to the code and is not allowed to be used as a required means of egress."
    Agreed, as you have written it. However, I did not say the door to the garage is a required means of egress. The ONLY REQUIRED means of egress is "the exit door", (not including EEROs).


    Now for the clincher.
    There IS NOT a code that prohibits an egress door from having a dbl cyl deadbolt installed in them.

    The code does say "WITHOUT THE USE OF A KEY ... on egress doors.
    No prohibition on having the lock installed.
    Something to think on.

    Anyhow, I see nothing that indicates that a door to a garage cannot be an egress.
    Yet

    Rick,

    Are you not reading what is in the code? Or not understanding what you are reading?

    Here is part if what I am referring to, I really do not see how much simpler it can be written:

    You (from quote above): (I added highlighting for you)
    Now for the clincher.
    There IS NOT a code that prohibits an egress door from having a dbl cyl deadbolt installed in them.

    The code does say "WITHOUT THE USE OF A KEY ... on egress doors.
    No prohibition on having the lock installed.
    Something to think on.
    From my post of the code: (I've changed the highlighting around so you can more easily find it)
    - R311.4.4 Type of lock or latch. All egress doors shall be readily openable from the side from which egress is to be made without the use of a key or special knowledge or effort.
    A door *is not* an "egress door" unless it meets the requirements of "exit doors", and, yes, a single family dwelling only requires ONE, but ALL doors which are "egress doors" must meet the requirements for the "exit door".

    If the door does not meet the requirements for an "exit door" it is simply just "an exterior door" to out of the dwelling living space and not an "egress door".

    I see what your problem is, you are trying to apply a term, i.e., "egress door", to non-egress doors, i.e., to "exterior door".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Columbus GA
    Posts
    3,746

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Jerry, Jerry, Jerry

    Note, the WINKY

    I was saying,
    the restriction is on USE OF A KEY
    not on having the lock.
    You can have a lock, AND still not use a key (don't use the lock).
    But again, note the winky.

    I'll think about what you say
    Thanks

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,243

    Default Re: garage door to living space

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Jerry, Jerry, Jerry

    Note, the WINKY

    I was saying,
    the restriction is on USE OF A KEY
    not on having the lock.
    You can have a lock, AND still not use a key (don't use the lock).
    But again, note the winky.

    I'll think about what you say
    Thanks
    No, you cannot "have a lock" and simply not use it, because the requirement is that you be able to exit "without the use of a key" and if someone, anyone, for any reason, "locks that lock" ... which is, after all, what "locks" are for, then the only way out would be "with the use of a key", which is prohibited.

    Thus, when all is said and done, or all is said and little is done , having a KEYED LOCK on the inside is not allowed ... a "lock without a key", yes, but is that a lock? Yes, it is an "entrance" lock, not an "exit" lock. You can get "entrance" lock sets at almost any hardware of building store, but I have yet to see an "exit" lock set ... maybe I was just not looking hard enough?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •