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  1. #1
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    Default Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Setting aside the electrical....

    1) Is there some requirement that prohibits this cheezy end support, when it does not violate the 24" max span requirement for the stone counter top?

    2) Is there any requirement for a continuous side enclosure (such as a base cabinet or full width end panel) for the dishwasher?

    Kitchen and bathroom rehab is "likely" unpermitted, see bonus pic for another example of the "workmanship"...

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    1) Is there some requirement that prohibits this cheezy end support, when it does not violate the 24" max span requirement for the stone counter top?
    Michael,

    How far over the end does that extend?

    That looks like the cabinet does not go all the way back to the wall. It looks like a 21"/22" deep vanity cabinet instead of a 24" deep kitchen cabinet??

    Is the face trim just separated and there is a full length cross header across the sink base cabinet, or what is supporting the sink and countertop across the front of the sink base?

    2) Is there any requirement for a continuous side enclosure (such as a base cabinet or full width end panel) for the dishwasher?
    That would be in the installation instructions for the dishwasher. If you are seeing a normal dishwasher for installation under a cabinet with a end panel (or another cabinet next to it), then the dishwasher was not intended to be left exposed on the sides or the back - but that would be in the wording of the installation instructions for the dishwasher. Which, of course, makes it a code violation if not installed in accordance with its instructions.

    I am presuming that you also got the uphill drain from the disposer and the tee into the trap arm, and no trap for the disposer, and the disposer installed at that angle, and ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    MT: If these, as they appear to be, are pre-fab cabinets, contact the manufacturer regarding the installation.

    Addtionally, the countertop surface's manufacturer will have installation instructions requiring full support of the laminate substrate. More can be found in Appendix B of AWI's Architectural Woodwork standards.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I am presuming that you also got the uphill drain from the disposer and the tee into the trap arm, and no trap for the disposer, and the disposer installed at that angle, and ...

    No, I think it's a dandy piece of work.

    In fact, I think so highly of that plumbing , I'm trying to find out who did it, so I call offter them $200 for $100 worth of whatever it was they were smoking - it's still got to be a bargin at the price:

    "No man... if you think about it hard enough, it will run uphill..."

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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Uh.. there is no cabinet there, that countertop is sitting on the rear ledger and a couple of pieces scrap being used as "end panels", so "manufactures installation instructions" 'ain't in it.

    Of course it's shoddy workmanship, and I guess I'll just write it up that way.

    Michael Thomas
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Sorry, I just now saw you said it was a stone top. Pretty thin one at that. I sent you info at your email that may help. With stone you will also want to refer to Marble Institute of America's "Residential Stone Countertop Installation".


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Uh.. there is no cabinet there, that countertop is sitting on the rear ledger and a couple of pieces scrap being used as "end panels", so "manufactures installation instructions" 'ain't in it.

    Michael,

    You really have me confused now.

    That photo shows one end of a countertop being (presumably) "next to a refrigerator".

    That photo also shows *something* (end panel, cabinet end, *something*, farther down from the refrigerator.

    That photo does not, however, show any reference angle to judge any distance between the refrigerator and that *something*. That unknown distance is what I was asking about.

    Do you have any other photos of that area?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Most cabinet manufacturers offer a specialized panel, often called a "dishwasher return" or "end cap" in their specifiers for base cabinets. These are usually specified at 3" (some are wider) and can be scribed/trimmed down. These are considered supporting (not unlike a cantilever) when installed as per instructions and what appears to be missing. Most come with a "toe kick" face, some with a column style face.

    They are not finished or skinned on the side unless specified as such. Some manufacturers do not make them finished on the side, you are required to purchase a panel to "skin" them with.

    This appears to be what is missing in the photo (the "skinning") but the end return itself may also be missing (can't see the face of the cabinetry).

    Dishwasher manufacturer's instructions generally require being installed in enclosed compartment. Warning stickers generally warn (often found on the sides and/or the face of the dishwasher behind the kickplate warning of the hazards of an electric shock should certain parts be contacted even if the power has been disconnected from the appliance.

    I didn't notice a DW drain hose on the "plumbing" photo. If the dishwasher in question is a "portable" one that is being hooked up to the kitchen faucet and draining to the topside of the sink, there wouldn't be a problem with where it was "garaged" since they (unless later converted with a manufacturer's kit to be installed) are self contained and guarded unless modified and require no cabinetry. So if that is the case (portable dishwasher) and the next item after it from the refrigerator/dw is the sink, and since that appears to be a full sink base cabinet - not a sink front..as long as the stone is supported in spec for its thickness/weight then the countertop in that area would be not unlike a dishwasher "carport" and would not require a cabinet end return ("garage") like a regular installed dishwasher would.

    P.S. I didn't think Illinois allowed the use of the plastic water line for the icemaker (nor saddle valves). Not to mention the line wrapping above a multi-outlet extension cord being used as a permanent supply source for the refrigerator and presumably the portable dishwasher.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-12-2009 at 08:02 PM.

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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I didn't notice a DW drain hose on the "plumbing" photo....
    .

    That's cause the sink is on the other side of the kitchen.

    I was not able to establish where the dishwasher's drain plumbing was discharging, but I have a pretty high level of confidence it will not be correct when the plumbers start opening the ceiling below to find out while they are correcting other problems. (If I had tracked down every possible problem I saw at this house, I would have been there all day).

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    P.S. I didn't think Illinois allowed the use of the plastic water line for the icemaker (nor saddle valves). Not to mention the line wrapping above a multi-outlet extension cord being used as a permanent supply source for the refrigerator and presumably the portable dishwasher.

    Yup, there was a saddle valve down in the basement - not allowed allowed in IL.

    It was off, I did not turn it on to discover what might be leaking.

    The AHJ (Skokie, IL) may allow that plastic line.

    That second cord is for the stove, left to right you had the refrigerator, the dishwasher (under a 24" countertop), then the stove.

    Michael Thomas
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    That photo also shows *something* (end panel, cabinet end, *something*, farther down from the refrigerator.

    That photo does not, however, show any reference angle to judge any distance between the refrigerator and that *something*. That unknown distance is what I was asking about.

    Do you have any other photos of that area?

    Sorry, no other picture.

    Let to right, the refrigerator was flush to the left of 24" countertop over the dishwasher (no real base cabinet below it, just the partial "end panels") and the stove was sitting flush to the right end of the same counter top.

    One next step, as H G Watson suggests, is to check the DW installation instructions to see if a solid side panel is required.

    Michael Thomas
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    One next step, as H G Watson suggests, is to check the DW installation instructions to see if a solid side panel is required.

    Michael,

    I suggested that way up in post #2 in this thread.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Actually you can check the unit itself, as I mentioned.

    UL 749 requires the unit itself be so marked (in addition to any Listed instructions) if it is required to be enclosed.

    You can review the Guide Info for (Cleaning Machines) Dishwashers, Household (DMIY) here:
    DMIY.GuideInfo - Dishwashers, Household

    3rd Paragraph under "Use and Installation" reads:
    An undercounter unit may not have a complete enclosure; the unit should be installed beside kitchen cabinets , and an enclosure should be provided at installation. Such units are so marked.
    Regarding the counter end-of-run situation, you'd need to look under that white fabric "drape" behind those lose panel skins to know what, if anything, is there. Whatever that "drape" material is, may be of issue (flame spread index, loose material, etc.) as well due to its proximity to all three appliances (refrigerator, dishwasher and range).

    I do not believe a local AHJ (other than the City of Chicago and/or the County Board of Cook County) in Illinois has the ability to approve a material (plumbing) that the Illinois Dept of Public Health has not. As I understand the home rule applications for other than the City of Chicago, local AHJs can further restrict the list and restrict some of the options of the Illinois Plumbing Code but not expand upon them. The City of Chicago and unincorporated areas of the County of Cook are the exceptions to the general rule, State Constitution-wise and specifically provided for in most statutes/legislation.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I do not believe a local AHJ (other than the City of Chicago and/or the County Board of Cook County) in Illinois has the ability to approve a material (plumbing) that the Illinois Dept of Public Health has not. As I understand the home rule applications for other than the City of Chicago, local AHJs can further restrict the list and restrict some of the options of the Illinois Plumbing Code but not expand upon them. The City of Chicago and unincorporated areas of the County of Cook are the exceptions to the general rule, State Constitution-wise and specifically provided for in most statutes/legislation.

    You are correct... in theory.

    In fact, I've seen suburban AHJs allow "prohibited" work.

    Saddle valves and plastic supply lines to ice makers are well down my list of the things I'm going to complain about to an AHJ if they get passed by municipal inspectors,

    I report them, and that's it... heck, I can't even get one local AHJ to pay attention to balconies lacking joist hangers on muilti-story new construction.

    Michael Thomas
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Support for countertop at end of top above dishwasher

    I heard that!

    An associate just sent me a news item about a multi-story deck collapse resulting in injuries to at least two persons, just this past weekend in Cook County and prior inspection report/warnings.

    Whether incompetance, being cheap, laziness, or corruption/payoffs, some things don't seem to change in the Big Chitty.


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