Thread: Smoke/Fire Alarms w Security System

Good Day All,

I ran into a smoke/fire alarm today that I have not seen before. All of the alarms where connected into the security system and power was supplied to the individual alarms. The alarms did not have a test button or device and as I was trying to find out what makes them tick I disconnected the alarm from the system and was promptly phoned by the security system. The two things I have a issue with is the was not a battery at the alarm and I could not get the alarm to test audibly. Does anyone know more about this type of alarm system? I will be writing up the aforementioned items but I want to know more.

Thanks,

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Depends on the system.

Even seen a couple of systems where the smoke alarms where powered by the fire alarm panel, which was battery backed up to provide power for the smoke detectors - it is much less expensive, though, to battery back up each smoke alarm individually, which is possibly why I have not see one of these in a while.

Some (many) smoke alarms do not have "test buttons" but instead are "tested" by placing a magnet up against the smoke alarm in the right location and that "puts the alarm in test mode" which sounds that alarm and all others interconnected to it.

I recently tested a existing condo building which had its fire alarm system upgraded and went around with the Fire Marshall and the alarm installation company testing the various alarms at random locations, one person with the alarm company stayed at the fire alarm panel to reset whatever we set off, another person with the fire alarm company went with us with a magnet on the end of a pole to test the alarms we randomly selected.

However, each smoke alarm did have its own battery back up.

Terry

What you have is most likely "Smoke Detectors", not smoke alarms.
As Jerry once pointed out to me, there is a difference.

"Does anyone know more about this type of alarm system? I will be writing up the aforementioned items but I want to know more."
I don't think that you should be testing this type of equipment. You could recommend testing be done by someone that is licensed and qualified in fire alarm systems.

"Even seen a couple of systems where the smoke alarms where powered by the fire alarm panel, which was battery backed up to provide power for the smoke detectors "
That is the only way I have seen them

"Some (many) smoke alarms do not have "test buttons" but instead are "tested" by placing a magnet up against the smoke alarm in the right location and that "puts the alarm in test mode" which sounds that alarm and all others interconnected to it."
Correct. There are several variations of test buttons, but all have some way to be tested.
Using the test button is the APPROVED method of testing.
Much like using the test button on a GFCI.

Thanks for the replies Jerry And Rick,

This is the first time I have seen this type of detectors/alarms in my area. It makes since with the magnet being used for testing and a remote battery for back-up. But as for the remote battery there is a possible scenario that the battery feed could and can be disconnected during a fire possibly causing system failure. Anyway the incite was much appreciated.

"But as for the remote battery there is a possible scenario that the battery feed could and can be disconnected during a fire possibly causing system failure"
The manufactures have already thought of that.

There are three conditions:
1 Normal, curent is measured through a resistor
2 Short= Alarm
3 Open= Trouble

Loss of the battery causes a trouble condition.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

"But as for the remote battery there is a possible scenario that the battery feed could and can be disconnected during a fire possibly causing system failure"
The manufactures have already thought of that.

There are three conditions:
1 Normal, curent is measured through a resistor
2 Short= Alarm
3 Open= Trouble

Loss of the battery causes a trouble condition.

Correct as I had mentioned before the security company was notified as I had disconnected the alarm. The concern I had conveyed is not the doubt of the security company being notified but as to persons in the residence if an actual fire should occur. If the power is out, they will not be alerted.

"If the power is out, they will not be alerted."

If the power is out, AND the battery is dead, then yes, in the event of a fire there will not be an alarm. That is a fact of electronics that we use and depend on every day.
However, ALL alarm systems have an indicator showing that house voltage is present and all alarm systems are capable of checking the battery for correct charge, and some even for capacity.

Rick,

I did not exactly convey what I was thinking as to the power loss.

Hypothetical scenario- The battery might be stored at a place like in a mechanical room in the garage,(If the house I had inspected had a battery this is where I believe it would be). A fire breaks out in the mechanical room and quickly burns the electrical wiring to the battery and electrical panel . The signal of power loss will go out to the security co. but the alarms will not sound due to the power loss by both means of power supply. Where as a smoke detector w/battery at the bedroom would sound off when smoke is detected.

I do understand the operation of these devices as you help point out to me, but there just seems to be a good chance of fault with that type of installation. Thanks for the feed back I appreciate it, I am just trying to explore the ins and out of this type of system.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

What you have is most likely "Smoke Detectors", not smoke alarms.
As Jerry once pointed out to me, there is a difference.

In this case, though, those are "alarms".

There are "detectors", there are "alarms", and there are combinations with "detectors" and "alarms" together.

If it makes a sound, flashes lights, or in any way "notifies" you of what it has detected, it is an "alarm".

If there is no "alarm" and it is a "detector" only, then the "alarm" will be remote, in that case it would simply be a "detector".

Thus, the average everyday smoke _____ we run across with be a smoke "alarm".

Originally Posted by fritzkelly

I see alot of these too, not 'in addition' but 'in place' of regular smoke alarms. I don't think this is a good idea as if the homeowner elects not to continue with the alarm system company, there are essentially no smoke alarms, or am I reading this wrong?
Does code address this?

You are reading it wrong.

The smoke alarms still go off in the residence.

If the system is monitored by the security company, they call the home and notify the fire department.

If the system is no longer (or never was) monitored, then the alarms function as regular smoke alarms.

Originally Posted by fritzkelly

Good to know, thanks Jerry! Do they have battery backup?

Yes.

Unless you find one of the rare systems (I've only seen them in large condo buildings for the common areas, and only once or twice then, and that was a number of years ago) where they are tied to a battery back system which fed all those smoke alarms. Made it easier to keep the batteries charged as it was a rechargeable system with a charger which kept the batteries charged. The batteries were similar to deep cycle marine batteries, there were several connected together. Take a regular car battery with 500 amp hours and that will run a lot of smoke alarms for quite some time, better than a 9 volt battery in each except that voltage drop needs to be figured into the circuit sizing.

Even then, though, the condo unit smoke alarms where of the individual battery type you would normally find.

I am suprised that the alarm was activated when you disconnected the detector. I'm trying to remember, and I guess it's possible, but most systems that I recall operate on normally open, parallel, instant circuits that close when activated.

There are systems that use capacitors to monitor the circuits. Perhaps there was a capacitor installed across the circuit within the detector, instead of across the circuit at the panel or down line, before the detector, and when you disconnected it, it caused the alarm to go off.

I don't recall seeing any detectors like this, but I have been out of the business for about 20 years or so. It is possible, and it is a good idea.

Originally Posted by Steven Turetsky

I am suprised that the alarm was activated when you disconnected the detector.

Steven,

I suspect that the alarm did not activate but that the security system notified the monitoring center that either an alarm failed or was tampered with.

In our house in South Florida, when any of the alarms, contacts, etc., were disturbed or removed (disconnected, either intentionally or accidentally) the security system would no notify the monitoring center and we would get a phone call. If we were not present to answer the phone and give the password, the police were automatically notified as it was presumed to be someone tampering with the system and breaking in.

Ok, I see. I once built a laundromat in a building that I owned. In order to monitor the operation of the business, I programmed the alarm to notify me directly (via my pager) for openings and closings.

There still must have been a capacitor removed to trigger the signal. (if it were a normally open circuit... which it probably was)

I think the 06 or 09 code started allowing this burgular/smoke alarm intragrated system

This attachemt my help

It is very interesting that this subject came up this week. Last Saturday while inspecting a home, I noticed a nice Smoke Detector/Carbon monoxide detector in the attic. There was a test button that said, "Press to test", so I did. The next thing an alarm is going off saying, "Get out of the house, Fire". A few minutes later the alarm company called and a few minutes after that the Fire Depatment promptly arrived. All I can say is that the alarm system worked very well.

Guys,
This might be a good tip. I teach that yes, smoke detectors and smoke alarms should be tested, if present, and they should be regardless how old the home is, battery, or battery back up and hard wired. I instruct inspectors to ask the question when scheduling the inspection " is the home connected to an alarm company or central monitoring system" Around my part of the country fire department charges for false alarm calls. They don't say "the system works well" They charge $100.00 the first time and $300.00 the 2nd. We feel it shouldn't be your responsibility to let the security company's know ahead of time that the fire/smoke alarms are going to be tested.
Randy

Randy, good point!

Also having the buyers review the security/alarm system with the sellers can give them more information than what could be attained at the inspection. Usually security systems are not within the scope of my inspections and I recommend buyers to contact the security CO. for further info on the system.

Stacey,
For some reason my screen did not have the attachment you posted, I am interested in it. Can you post it another way?

Steven,
Is it possible to have 2 circuits to the detector alarm?
1 open for the alarm, and 1 closed for the detector?

In the event of powerloss on the panel, and the panel is monitored, (which obviously it is) the monitoriing company should call if the panel goes into trouble or alarm. For example, if the batteries inside the panel are bad, this should cause a trouble and the monitoring company should call someone on their list of contacts. If you take a smoke detector head out this should also cause a trouble. When you powered down the AC on the panel this sent a trouble to the monitoring company who then called. In case of an alarm, and its a good thing you didn't send one. the monitoring company does not call anyone on their list, they immediately roll the fire trucks.
Just a little advise next time, ask the client if they are being monitored by anyone and if they are have them put the system on test. Just make sure before you leave that they put the system back online.
Hope this helps.

Randy,
Thanks for the excellent tip. Maybe I should have paid more attention to the Security Sign half buried in the snow. From now on I will make sure that the alarm is not in operation.

Jerry
"In this case, though, those are "alarms"."

He described a smoke detector as part of an alarm system.
"All of the alarms where connected into the security system "


Fritz
"I see alot of these too, not 'in addition' but 'in place' of regular smoke alarms. I don't think this is a good idea..."
I agree. When installing an alarm system, I leave the conventional alarms in place.


Steven
" most systems that I recall operate on normally open, parallel, instant circuits that close when activated. "
Not "most", but ALL, are Normally Open

"There are systems that use capacitors to monitor the circuits"
Not capacitors, Resistors

"Perhaps there was a capacitor installed across the circuit within the detector, instead of across the circuit at the panel or down line, before the detector"
Resistors go at the End of Line (last device).

"I suspect that the alarm did not activate but that the security system notified the monitoring center that either an alarm failed or was tampered with."
That is most likely what happened.

"I noticed a nice Smoke Detector/Carbon monoxide detector in the attic."
Bad place for a detector. Most of the time a detector should not be in the attic. To hot.

Randy
"This might be a good tip. I teach that yes, smoke detectors and smoke alarms should be tested, if present, and they should be regardless how old the home is, battery, or battery back up and hard wired. I instruct inspectors to ask the question when scheduling the inspection " is the home connected to an alarm company or central monitoring system"
I would also have the homeowner present so that they can enter the code to silence the alarm.

Kevin
"In the event of powerloss on the panel, and the panel is monitored, (which obviously it is) the monitoriing company should call if the panel goes into trouble or alarm. For example, if the batteries inside the panel are bad, this should cause a trouble and the monitoring company should call someone on their list of contacts. .... When you powered down the AC on the panel this sent a trouble to the monitoring company who then called"
Low Battery, loss of AC may not be monitored on all systems, and even if they are, it most often will be "Log only".

"If you take a smoke detector head out this should also cause a trouble. "
Correct
A trouble could be dispatch or log only, but not all systems report troubles.

Patrick
"From now on I will make sure that the alarm is not in operation."
The fire circuit cannot be turned off.

Here is some alarm/dector info.

More current smokies info

If combined with a bugular alarm must be owned by homowner

Read the current info a alarm or detector is required in some attics and
Dual systems are allowed

Good information Stacey

This is from one of the docs, Bold added
"• Smoke alarms should not be located within kitchens, garages or in other spaces where temperatures can fall below 32° F or exceed 100° F "

I think most manufacturers limit is 32-120F.
That is why I said an attic is a bad place to put a detector.
Attics often exceed those temps.


"If combined with a bugular alarm must be owned by homowner"
I think that is good. Some alarm companys lease (rent) the alarm systen to homeowners. The company removes the equipment if the service stops.

"Read the current info a alarm or detector is required in some attics"

I did not find where it said that.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Jerry
"
Steven
" most systems that I recall operate on normally open, parallel, instant circuits that close when activated. "
Not "most", but ALL, are Normally Open

I didn't want to say all. Like I stated, I'm out of the business over 20 years. I didn't recall any N.C. smoke/fire systems (or panic), but felt that it could be possible and that such a system could exist.

Actually, having been involved in some "fail safe" systems, I would not be a bit suprised if a N.C. system existed. My nephew designs systems for a national company, I will ask him about it.

"There are systems that use capacitors to monitor the circuits"
Not capacitors, Resistors

You are correct, like I said, Its been 20 years (plus).

"Perhaps there was a capacitor installed across the circuit within the detector, instead of across the circuit at the panel or down line, before the detector"
Resistors go at the End of Line (last device).

In a N.O. system, wired parallel, each device is an end of the line. Unless the resistor is built into the head, they will be install before the end, so removal of a head should not set off a signal. In reality, most installers install a resistor across the terminals within the panel of a N.O. circuit, and between the circuit wire and contact terminal of a N.C. circuit.

If the resistor is across the terminals (N.O.), the system would have no way of knowing that a N.O. device has been removed. Which is why I felt that there was a resistor built into the detector head itself. Once again, I don't know of any such head, and the heads would have to match the system. I felt in 20 years, such a change was possible. Even still, if numerous heads with end of line resistors were present, the removal of one would not be recongnized.

In a "series" circuit, yes the resistor belongs at the end of the line. In reality, most installers install them in-line in the panel, at a terminal. But even if they were installed at the end of the circuit, it may tell you if the circuit was jumped, it would not tell you if a particular opening was jumped.

So unless there is technology that I am not aware of... which is certainly possible..., I don't see how the removal of a single head would set of a signal.

Originally Posted by Terry Sandmeier

Steven,
Is it possible to have 2 circuits to the detector alarm?
1 open for the alarm, and 1 closed for the detector?

Yes, for a smoke head there is a power circuit (usually red and black) and there is the alarm circuit (usually green and yellow). Of course the wire colors depend upon the type of cables used.

The power circuit should always be on, if the power is removed... in a monitored system, a signal may be sent to the CS. The alarm circuit has a positive and negative side, when the normally open circuit closes, the system is activated.

The only detector I can think of that operates off a single circuit is a heat detector. When the element reaches a certain temp, the circuit closes and the system is activated.

The only place I prefer to see a heat detector in in an area where smoke is normal, like in a kitchen.

Stacey, Thanks for the info, Like It!!

Rick & Steven,
Testing this type of system with what Jerry had mentioned a magnet, would then close the circuit sending the signal to the security company, Right? Or does it send a test signal that would not notify the security CO?

Terry
"Testing this type of system with what Jerry had mentioned a magnet, would then close the circuit sending the signal to the security company, Right?
Right

Or does it send a test signal that would not notify the security CO?"
It sends an alarm signal

Steven
"but felt that it could be possible and that such a system could exist."
Possible, yes, but I don't know of one.

"In a N.O. system, wired parallel, each device is an end of the line"
Incorrect

"If the resistor is across the terminals (N.O.), the system would have no way of knowing that a N.O. device has been removed. "
Correct

"So unless there is technology that I am not aware of... which is certainly possible..., I don't see how the removal of a single head would set of a signal."
No time to explane now, but if you want, I can later.

This is a simple diagram.

Thanks Rick,

This brings up another question. If you have multiple detectors lets say 3 in series. If the 2nd detector closes the Alarm circuit Zone line and detector 1 & 3 are open what sends the signal to the panel?

Not trying to split hair, just trying to putting my head around this.

Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell

Terry

"In a N.O. system, wired parallel, each device is an end of the line"
Incorrect

Let me explain in a different way. If you wired a circuit to a panel at one end and an end of line resistor at the opposite end, and if between these two points you came off parallel with normally open heads, the removal of a normally open head will send no signal to the panel.

Now, there is technology that includes coded heads. Each head sends a signal through the "data" loop. Although this is not done with resistors, and even though the circuit is open, it does allow a coded ID signal for each head to respond. Each head ID code must be programmed into the system. These are usually seen in UL approved systems (not componants)

The system then monitors if a code (ID) is missing.

By the way, the removal of such a head does not trigger a fire signal to the CS, it will trigger a 'trouble" or "supervisory" signal.

I made 2 additions to the drawing

Originally Posted by Terry Sandmeier

Thanks Rick,

This brings up another question. If you have multiple detectors lets say 3 in series. If the 2nd detector closes the Alarm circuit Zone line and detector 1 & 3 are open what sends the signal to the panel?

Not trying to split hair, just trying to putting my head around this.

You are confusing series and parallel circuits. If they are parallel, any one that closes completes the circuit and activates the Fire alarm.

Rick, I just saw your drawing, it is well done. But, many of the alarms I see are not wired in line as depicted in the drawing. Most are wired to the individual heads and converge at the panel.

"This brings up another question. If you have multiple detectors lets say 3 in series. If the 2nd detector closes the Alarm circuit Zone line and detector 1 & 3 are open what sends the signal to the panel?"
A short, any short, causes an alarm

"If you have multiple detectors lets say 3 in series"
BTW Fire alarm circuits are wired Parallel, not in series.

"Let me explain in a different way. If you wired a circuit to a panel at one end and an end of line resistor at the opposite end, and if between these two points you came off parallel with normally open heads, the removal of a normally open head will send no signal to the panel. "
See the second drawing
An open, any open, causes a trouble.

"Now, there is technology that includes coded heads. Each head sends a signal through the "data" loop. Although this is not done with resistors, and even though the circuit is open, it does allow a coded ID signal for each head to respond. Each head ID code must be programmed into the system. These are usually seen in UL approved systems (not componants)
It's called "POINT ID"
Mostly used on very large systems, such as hotels.
Has nothing to do with UL approval

"By the way, the removal of such a head does not trigger a fire signal to the CS, it will trigger a 'trouble" or "supervisory" signal."
Correct
On all fire alarm circuits the removal of any head causes a Trouble.

"many of the alarms I see are not wired in line as depicted in the drawing. Most are wired to the individual heads and converge at the panel."

I think you are describing where each head is run to the panel (Home Run)
Home runs on a fire circuit is not often done, it can be confusing, and is complicated to explane.
OR
It could be more than one fire circuit.
Again, not common.

Maybe this will show it better

Ya! there you go, that makes it clear, I understand what you are saying Thanks Rick.

Steven, I was thinking in series. Parallel Make perfect sense or individual lead to the panel. Thanks. Good info here guys!!!

The IRC has new requirments for Hatatiable attics even if not finished. It concerns egress and smoke and CO alarms, and it will take special detectors for the hot and cold areas.

I never test smoke alarms/detectors on a dual system I was chair of the KS SOP commitie and we excluded testing smokies
You never know if the system is motitored on not.

I have met both a cop and a fireman when the cliet tested the alarm

Very good diagrams, and if wired like in the diagram, I can see how the removal of a head would trigger a signal.

What would happen if a head was removed from one of two (or more)similar circuits that converged at the panel, and connected in parallel at the fire zone?

Or, in order two tie in more than one line of smoke/fire heads must there be more than one fire zone at the panal?

"in order two tie in more than one line of smoke/fire heads must there be more than one fire zone at the panal?"
Correct

"The IRC has new requirments for Hatatiable attics even if not finished. It concerns egress and smoke and CO alarms, and it will take special detectors for the hot and cold areas. "
Could you provide a link?

09 irc info

Stacey
I think those are the same docs you posted earlier.
I did not fine where it says to install smoke anything in the attic, habitable or not habitable.

""Now, there is technology that includes coded heads. Each head sends a signal through the "data" loop. Although this is not done with resistors, and even though the circuit is open, it does allow a coded ID signal for each head to respond. Each head ID code must be programmed into the system. These are usually seen in UL approved systems (not componants)
It's called "POINT ID"
Mostly used on very large systems, such as hotels.
Has nothing to do with UL approval"


Let me correct myself
I think that "Point ID" is a manufactures name for the technology.
The technology you are describing is called an "Addressable" system.

http://www.engr.psu.edu/phrc/trainin...%20webinar.pdf

"The IRC has new requirments for Hatatiable attics even if not finished. It concerns egress and smoke and CO alarms, and it will take special detectors for the hot and cold areas. "
Could you provide a link?


A link to, quote or copy of the ACTUAL IRC CODE

I have not been able to locate the IRC code, but I have found reference to it several times.
But even with a code to require detectors in a habitable attic, there are still some manufacturer's restrictions against placing detectors in the attic.
Below is some of the information I found.


http://www.brkelectronics.com/faqs/newconstruction/locations_to_avoid_for_smoke_alarms

Installing Smoke Alarms in Single-Family Residences
The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA), recommends one Smoke Alarm on every floor, in every sleeping area, and in every bedroom. In new construction, the Smoke Alarms must be AC powered and interconnected. See “Agency Placement Recommendations” for details. For additional coverage, it is recommended that you install a Smoke Alarm in all rooms, halls, storage areas, finished attics, and basements, where temperatures normally remain between 40° F (4° C) and 100° F (38° C).


NFPA 72 (National Fire Code) Chapter 11 “For your information, the National Fire Protection Association's Standard 72 reads as follows:

11.5.1 One- and Two-Family Dwelling Units.
11.5.1.1 Smoke Detection. Where required by applicable laws, codes, or standards for the specified occupancy, approved single- and multiple-station Smoke Alarms shall be installed as follows: (1) In all sleeping rooms. Exception: Smoke Alarms shall not be required in sleeping rooms in existing one- and two-family dwelling units. (2) Outside of each separate sleeping area, in immediate vicinity of the sleeping rooms. (3) On each level of the dwelling unit, including basements. Exception: In existing one- and two family dwelling units, approved Smoke Alarms powered by batteries are permitted.

A.11.8.3 Are More Smoke Alarms Desirable? The required number of Smoke Alarms might not provide reliable early warning protection for those areas separated by a door from the areas protected by the required Smoke Alarms. For this reason, it is recommended that the householder consider the use of additional Smoke Alarms for those areas for increased protection. The additional areas include the basement, bedrooms, dining room, furnace room, utility room, and hallways not protected by the required Smoke Alarms. The installation of Smoke Alarms in kitchens, unfinished attics, or garages is not normally recommended, as these locations occasionally experience conditions that can result in improper operation.”
What are the locations to avoid for smoke alarms?

LOCATIONS TO AVOID FOR SMOKE ALARMS

For best performance, AVOID installing Smoke Alarms in these areas:
Where the temperatures are regularly below 40°F (4° C) or above 100° F (38° C) including unheated buildings, outdoor rooms, porches, or unfinished attics or basements