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  1. #1
    Jonathan Cartwright's Avatar
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    Default Oven blocks garage door

    This 1961 gem has something I have not run across before.

    The built in electric oven is next to the garage entry door. When the oven is open the oven door blocks the garage entry door. I'm not certain if there are any code problems with this but it just seems odd to me and give me that "not right" feeling. Perhaps a safety issue as someone tries to enter the house from the garage while you are mucking about with the Thanksgiving turkey.

    I feel like I should mention it but I'm not sure why or how. Any input would be appreciated.

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  2. #2
    Chuck Lambert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Put it as you see it.

    When fully open the oven door blocks the garage entry door.

    Simple

    Chuck


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    If that door can be made to swing into the garage, that's an easy fix.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I'd might mention it but more importantly is that "pet door" in that hollow core door out to the garage.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    but more importantly is that "pet door" in that hollow core door out to the garage.

    Not that the "pet door" matters in that "hollow core door" ...

    Regarding the oven ... sometimes you just have to put the obvious in your report because, well, it will become obvious to them after they move in, and I've found it best to point those things out first (before closing on the house) instead of explain them after they bought the house.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    I'd might mention it but more importantly is that "pet door" in that hollow core door out to the garage.
    Do you see "hollow", Rick? I see mahogany. It could be solid.

    In the 60's, they sometimes put sheet metal on the garage side.
    I would report all of it, and lack of spring door closer if that was the case, too.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 01-21-2010 at 07:05 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    and lack of spring door closer if that was the case, too.

    Self-closing hinges are not even required today.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Self-closing hinges are not even required today.
    That is interesting to know, Jerry.

    I recommend them anyway.
    It may be a local thing, found in all new construction in my area. Will check it out.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    It may be a local thing, found in all new construction in my area. Will check it out.

    Used to be down here too, at least in many of the places I've been.

    That's because no one understand what that wall was ...
    - Was it a fire-resistance rated assembly? Nope, not at all.
    - Was it a fire-rated assembly? No, but kinda, sorta, maybe.
    - Was it an assembly of fire-rated components? Sorta, maybe, at least on the garage side when they used Type X on the garage side.
    - Should the door be self-closing and self-latching? Well, if the wall was a fire-resistance rated assembly, then absolutely, but what if it is an assembly of fire-rated components - maybe. What about an assembly of non-fire rated components - why have self-closing and self-latching when there is no fire-resistance rating?

    So it became a "separation" wall, with no given fire-resistance rating, just an acknowledgment that gypsum board 'helps' in that regard, and where there is no requirement for the gypsum board to be Type X unless there is living space above it, and then it is only required to be Type X on the ceiling, but the ceiling-floor assembly is not required to be a fire-resistance rated assembly, so why bother? Because the code says so.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
    Jonathan Cartwright's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Oven blocks garage door

    [QUOTE=John Kogel;117259]Do you see "hollow", Rick? I see mahogany. It could be solid.

    That door is as hollow as a realtors conscious. Pet door through it. Non self closing.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I think you got it all wrong.
    That IS NOT an oven
    It is a self heated door locking device.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    If that door can be made to swing into the garage, that's an easy fix.

    Make sure that if there are steps down into the garage, there must be a landing of at least 36" depth for the door to swing over.


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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    FWIW, I'm with Chuck, Jerry P and Rick on the list of above comments.
    Pointing out the obvious also happens to be one of our many tasks.

    Jerry McCarthy
    Building Code/ Construction Consultant

  14. #14
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    Wink Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by fritzkelly View Post
    I still recommend it too.
    I was thinking about that today in a new(er) home with an office attached to the garage without a self closing door and wondered why the other fire separation measures are still required.
    I would be concerned- A fire in that oven would quickly spread to the garage!
    And God forbid that anything in my garage burn. My first wife wouldn't allow me to put a bathroom in the garage. With that and the microwave we might still be married...not talking but still married.


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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Had a better one than that last week . (no pictures, sorry)

    No one living there, Foreclosure just remodeled with a new deeper refrigerator in the rear corner of the kitchen adjacent the rear entry.

    The rear door from house to the back yard would not open unless you first opened both the top and bottom freezer and refrigerator doors, so rear door cleared their closed depth. (All doors opened from the same corner)

    Someone had to be there to close everything up behind you and forget about coming in that way if you were alone.

    Had to be changed....no choice.

    Contractor/seller had to have seen this.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Self-closing hinges are not even required today.
    JP: They are required by many of the municipalities I work in.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I inspected a REO a few months ago where the stove was jammed into a corner kitchen cabinet where the oven couldn't possibly open. The stove was brand new.

    I suspect that the previous owner removed the original stove which was smaller. The bank had a new stove installed, but the installer(probably the truck driver) didn't feel it was his job to make sure that the oven would open.

    I have also seen a number of new dishwashers installed with new garbage disposals where the knock out for the dishwasher drain was still intact. It's a big red flag when the dishwasher spews water from the air gap device! LOL

    I suspect that maybe the dishwasher was installed when the water service was off.

    Likewise, I see a lot of new bathroom vanities with drains that leak. Six dollars/hour in the Home Depot parking lot doesn't buy one a quality job!


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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: They are required by many of the municipalities I work in.

    Aaron,

    Do they also require a fire-rated door?

    If not, it is a waste.

    Also, do they accepted raised panel doors? If so, those doors do not meet the required minimum thickness.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #19
    Mark Scepura's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    How does that door open? It appears that the door hinge and door handle are both on the same side of the door.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Also, do they accepted raised panel doors? If so, those doors do not meet the required minimum thickness.
    Jerry,
    I'm assuming you are talking about wood doors only, and not a steel door.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Scepura View Post
    How does that door open? It appears that the door hinge and door handle are both on the same side of the door.
    That is a safety latch to keep small children from opening the door.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Do you see "hollow", Rick? I see mahogany. It could be solid.

    In the 60's, they sometimes put sheet metal on the garage side.
    I would report all of it, and lack of spring door closer if that was the case, too.

    John

    Personally I've never seen a pet door cut into a solid door but I've seen hundreds cut into hollow core doors. I've seen (4) of them this week alone.
    A solid door, I think most think twice about cutting through those.

    rick


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    Jerry,
    I'm assuming you are talking about wood doors only, and not a steel door.

    Chris,

    I am referring to ANY door which does not meet the requirements of the code.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

    If the recessed areas around the raised panels are less than 1-3/8" thick, then the even the steel door does not meet code.


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  23. #23
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Chris,

    I am referring to ANY door which does not meet the requirements of the code.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

    If the recessed areas around the raised panels are less than 1-3/8" thick, then the even the steel door does not meet code.
    Hmmmm, very interesting. I guess that's what happens when you assume.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Hi, all &

    Hate to argue /show you up, but that set-up is for a "turkey get-away" - if both oven and garage /house doors are left open (turkey gets the upper hand if the cook /resident is foolish enough to leave both open at the same time)...

    Also - 'self-closing' is required "up-here" (fire-stop AND a turkey-stop).


    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I don't know about other areas, but the whole state of Maine with doors going in or through a garage are always considered exterior doors and are almost always 1-3/4" thick. 1-3/8 doors are a standard for interior doors.

    A 20 min door is not hard to achieve and the only way to know if it is rated is with the UL tag on the door and frame.
    There was a time where all doors were rated for 20 minutes without the tag.
    As you can see here, the panel doors in a 20 minute rating are not 1-3/4" at the recessed panel, but still rated for 20 minutes.
    Fire Rated fire doors Wood Doors

    and here;
    Therma-Tru Doors: Fire-Rated Doors - 20-Min Fiberglass Doors

    The door in the picture is oriented wrong for the layout and there is no evidence here as to the thickness, species, or rating if any and the doggy door negates whatever rating it has if any, So the bottom line is call it out. Report what you see and move on.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Chris,

    I am referring to ANY door which does not meet the requirements of the code.

    (underlining and bold are mine)
    - R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be permitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall be equipped with solid wood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

    If the recessed areas around the raised panels are less than 1-3/8" thick, then the even the steel door does not meet code.

    I agree with Chris, hmmm, I never thought of it that way JP. I'm going to step out and assume again. Most new exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick sooo, I would assume even a raised panel would be 1-3/8" thick in the panel area?? Anyone have a set of calipers to check?

    Randy Gordon, construction
    Michigan Building Inspector/Plan Reviewer

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcel Cyr View Post
    As you can see here, the panel doors in a 20 minute rating are not 1-3/4" at the recessed panel, but still rated for 20 minutes.


    And that is one of the options: to use a 20 minute rated door.

    And if the door is rated as a 20 minute rated door, then thickness is not a consideration - you could probably have a solid steel plate door 3/16" thick and it would test as a 20 minute rated door. With rated doors it is simply the fact that they *have been tested* as manufactured and are now rated, their thickness no longer matters.

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  28. #28
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Door Guy View Post
    I'm going to step out and assume again. Most new exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick sooo, I would assume even a raised panel would be 1-3/8" thick in the panel area??

    As you stated, you are correct, but you did not state what I did.

    You said "even a raised panel would be", and, yes, the "raised panel" will may be 1-3/8" thick. I say "may be" as I measured a few and they were not 1-3/8" thick, but a few others were.

    I said "the recessed areas around the raised panels are less than 1-3/8" thick" ... "the recessed areas" and I have measure many of them and not a single one was 1-3/8" thick *at the recessed area*.

    The simple way to measure it to take a 1-3/4" door, lay a straight edge across each face of the door, then measure in from the straight edge to the recess. Add those two measurements together and subtract from 1-3/4". That means there is only 3/8" for BOTH recesses, or 3/16" for EACH recess, and all the ones I measured were much further recessed than 3/16" at each face.

    Now, a 1-3/4" flush slab solid wood door, or a 1-3/4" flush slab steel door, those would be okay, as would a 1-3/8" flush slab solid wood door or a 1-3/8" flush slab steel door.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Gerry, the key word as you said, "as they were tested"

    Just like the fact a one hour wall only requires a 45 min. door, so since the IRC requires a 20 min door in the separation, that means the separation should have a rating of at least 45 minutes. This might be something that helps some.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Do they also require a fire-rated door?

    If not, it is a waste.
    Another reason for spring-loaded hinges, to block exhaust fumes from the home.



  31. #31
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Another reason for spring-loaded hinges, to block exhaust fumes from the home.

    There should not be any exhaust fumes in the garage to have to worry about: 1) the garage should be vented; 2) no one but idiots would run a car in the garage without the garage door up - and that would lead to natural selection taking its course; 3) even a weatherstripped door is not going to seal out exhaust fumes.

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    There should not be any exhaust fumes in the garage to have to worry about: 1) the garage should be vented; 2) no one but idiots would run a car in the garage without the garage door up - and that would lead to natural selection taking its course; 3) even a weatherstripped door is not going to seal out exhaust fumes.
    Yeah, but ...1.Garages in my part of the world are never vented. Too much cold air out there.2.Otis starts the car, realizes he's forgotten something, runs back in the house, leaves the door open. Telling me that's never happened? 3. We check for weatherstrip, too. It will help.

    So yes, I check for all that and call it out. Fire and fumes.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I guess several of you expect a old house to be new or a small house to be big.

    Small homes many times have one door at a time (appliance, cabniet , or door,) operation in halls and kitchens.

    MANY old homes have no fire walls or doors at the garage seperation wall.

    This would be a nice up grade, to install a fire rated system, but this missing system is not a materail defect, in a home old enough were this was not a requirment when constructed.

    Perspective is needed, for a HI


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    I guess several of you expect a old house to be new or a small house to be big.
    MANY old homes have no fire walls or doors at the garage seperation wall.
    This would be a nice up grade, to install a fire rated system, but this missing system is not a materail defect, in a home old enough were this was not a requirment when constructed.
    I point out missing safety features. The clients are under no obligation to alter the home in any way. It's about making them aware, hey, this home doesn't have the features we've gotten used to in the more modern homes.


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Ours is a business of opinions, and I would not call it a safety hazzard. It is a cozy kitchen


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Yeah and you do check box right Stacey. Stupid.
    It may never be an issue. However, my report would write it up as a D&H condition. It's an old oven, it catches fire and one egress is blocked. This is unacceptable and I would write it as so. I would also state that fixing it is fairly easy and could be done by a competent carpenter within a few hours. Change the door swing and the D&H condition is abated. As far as fire rating of the door to the garage, that's another issue.

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  37. #37
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    If this was a dishwasher a fridge or drawer, then when in use (open) the egress is blocked. So usning your logic the door swing should be changed. As i said Opinion is our game on some calls. I would never call this or the other examples a safety issue causing a material defect.


  38. #38
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Stacey, your scenario makes it even more hazardous.
    We do not allow key2key locks in Res. partly assuming that during a 2AM fire people will be too frantic to find the key and get out.
    Under your scenario, the burning stove would conceivably be located at the other end of the kitchen, i.e. the 2nd path of egress. If the fridge door is open/opens during the panic doesn't that bring on exactly why egress doors are meant to swing out? Not only would people, i.e. a frantic mother and children, have to possess enough calm to stop pushing against the fridge door so it can be closed so they can access the egress door. They would also have to realize that they have to pull the egress door towards them and the fire to get out.
    I have spent countless hours in Housing Court getting vacate orders specifically because of hazardous conditions at buildings. You and others are right that it doesn't happen a lot and probably isn't a big deal. In this case it looks like it has been that way for a long time and nothing has happened. Lets be glad for that. I must however assume that it can and might happen.
    I've pointed out D&H conditions at times and people thought I was stupid or exaggerating, unfortunately in those same circumstances people were seriously injured and died. Why? For various reasons, my always favorite though, 'oh the chances of that happening are so remote'.
    My brother is a fireman, when he talks about some real rough fire, the stairs this, the doors that; others listen and say wow. I listen and think, non-compliant install.

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  39. #39
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    We recently had a successful lawsuit (from the seller prespectve) were a inspector was suied by the seller

    If i was selling my house and you called a DW, that when the door was open I could not open my garage door, non-compliant, and I lost the sale, i would sue the home inspector and complain to the state, and keep earnest money.

    You need to read some code books
    1 the garage is not egress (i could put a keyed deadbolt here)
    2 if the any of the doors, drawrs etc. while open blocked the egress path out of a kitchen (while open) What would make this non-compliant.
    3most sops would not include appliaces


  40. #40
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    I'm not saying that this particular install is non-compliant. What I am saying is that it is potentially hazardous. My concerns are the potential hazards my client may face in a new property. It is important to remember, the seller is used to any defects and tends to 'live around them'. The buyer is NOT used to living with whatever those hazards may be. Therefore it may be the NEW occupant of the building that brings all the pieces together to make that 'remote chance' happen. Not everything is about Code compliance. In some of these situations it is important to take human actions into consideration.
    If you aren't pointing out potential hazards in your reports, then that's your way of doing business. I do things differently.
    I've had plenty of seller's threaten me with everything from swear words to lawsuits and even death threats. That BS stopped bothering me years ago. Not one has even come close to being successful.
    I write what I see. I don't care about the politics of any of it.
    If you aren't writing what you see because you don't think it's a big deal, well that's really too bad for your customers.

    www.aic-chicago.com
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  41. #41
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    What I am saying is that it is potentially hazardous. My concerns are the potential hazards my client may face in a new property.

    Markus,

    Apparently you have not followed his posts for very long ... ... as soon as you said "potentially" and "potential" I do believe you lost him.

    Based on his posts he is a Tony Mount "minimalist SoP" type inspector. Not mentioning Tony to pound on him here, only because he has stated so often here about his minimalist stick-to-the-SoP-and-nothing-more views and methods.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  42. #42
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oven blocks garage door

    As a matter of fact, If you ask other inspectors in my area i am considered picky. I have many agents that will only use me if the home buyer is a relative or close friend.

    I do report more safety issues that are not code based on experience and knowledge.

    I, as well as some others think that this is a non- issue.

    I have yet to hear any logic that says a open cabinet, DW, oven, fridge door blocking a garge entry door is a reportable safety issue. ( in my opinion)

    Without reading any of my reports, commenting on my reporting type or style is less than accurate.


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